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Fire Howson Thread

View Poll Results: Should Scott Howson be fired?
Yes 85 59.03%
No 59 40.97%
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Old
10-25-2010, 05:47 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Every team is building for the future. I think it is still open for discussion as to how successful Howson has been at doing so. He's yet to really hit a home run in the draft. He's had one marquee trade. And he's been pretty horrible at the free agency game.

Any number of excuses can be crafted for all of these deficiencies (bad draft position, not enough "bullets," budget, lack of free agent interest in Columbus, etc., etc.), but at some point the difference between a good GM and a bad GM is the ability to make things happen. Howson made things happen his second year here, but seems to have lost his way since. I'd like to know the reason, but it is unlikely I will ever here it come from his mouth.
i can't disagree with you there...but if you look at some of the comments about the prospects, we all (for the most part) have a good to fair belief in the farm team...meaning we see a lot of promise there in the kanas, kubaliks, moore, savard, on and on, you get what i'm saying...so from that stand point, he's building bottom up, where as a lot of us are hoping with such high draft picks that it would be more top down...

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10-25-2010, 07:15 PM
  #127
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Freaking guy doesn't even trade for Carter/Gagne when he had the chance, would rather look for Brassard's "replacement" in Johansen.





























































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Old
10-25-2010, 10:29 PM
  #128
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Since I'm in a good mood after a win I'll offer my opinion on Howson and try to be as fair as I can.




The Good:

1. Drafting Jake Voracek - More of a no-brainer pick, but he could've selected someone not named Voracek. When the Kings took Hickey I knew we would get either Voracek or Sam Gagner
2. Both trades involving Raffi Torres - Yes, both trades involving Raffi were good for the CBJ. We got him for Brule, who needed a change of scenary, he's played well in Edmonton, but I doubt he would be playing that well if he was still here. When we dealt Raffi away it was the right time, trading a UFA for something is always better than letting him walk. Essentially it's Brule for Petr Straka.
3. Vermette for Leclaire and Robin Lehner - Probably Howson's best trade, and will give him extra cushion when ownership evaluates him. Vermette is a solid 2nd line center, lower tier 1st line C. Leclaire continued to have injury problems in Ottawa and Robin Lehner will be a solid goalie down the road.
4. Foote for RJ Umberger and David Savard - At the time it was a bad move. We were in the playoff hunt and couldn't get an extension done so Howson felt he had to move a UFA and get something back. We passed up a 1st rounder for RJ, but odds are RJ is better than anyone we could've drafted and Savard should be paying dividends for many years to come.
5. Signing Sammy Pahlsson & letting Malhotra walk - This is one that I guarantee everyone will disagree with me on, but oh well. I like Pahlsson, he's a legitimate shutdown 3rd line center in the NHL and Malhotra was asking for too much money. I bet that if Howson caved in and gave Manny what he wanted everyone would not like Manny as much. Howson made the right move here.
6. Firing Hitchcock - Yes I know it was too late, but Howson actually wanted to fire him earlier last year but he wasn't allowed to do so. So I'll file this under good since he had the guts to fire him when many thought he wouldn't do it.
7. Signing Ryan Salmons to a 1 day contract - One of Howson's best moves, 'Nuff said.
8. Stralman for a 3rd round pick - Anton has single-handedly made our power play legit, and forced us to stop using the "Claude Noel Power Play Meter"
9. Attempting to trade for Brad Richards - This along with the Vermette trade had the opportunity to be another fleecing. It didn't work out obviously but this showed me that Howson had good taste in centers. Unfortunately since his failed attempt at Brad he has shyed away from getting that #1 C. There was interest in Spezza but we'll never know how much.
10. Jason Williams for Clay Wilson and a 6th round pick - This is exactly the kind of move you make when your team is in the hunt. We got a solid player and didn't give up much. You can argue we should've kept him, but he'd just be another bottom 6 guy now.
11. Signing depth guys like Mackenzie, Wilson, Guenin, etc. and signing Garon to backup Mason - I'll clump this under one note so I don't have too much in the good column.
12. Jan Hejda - Self explanatory


The Bad:

1. Zherdev and Fritsche for Tyutin and Backman - Yes I know Tyutin is still playing with us and Z isn't with the Rangers. But letting Z walk allowed the Rags to sign Gaborik and they didn't have Tyuts contract on the books. He was okay our playoff year but has been dreadful ever since. Though 8 games he hasn't been good either, he has more passes intercepted than Brett Favre. Keeping Z would've cost less than what Juice makes.
2. Not doing anything this offseason after finishing 14th in the West - This one had us talking for months, Ethan Moreau played well in his short stint, but it wasn't enough. There were some solid players like Pavel Kubina and Willie Mitchell out there.
3. Brassard and Klesla's extensions - Brass had a good game tonight, but last season he was terrible, and wasn't too good in the first 6 games, hopefully the Brass we saw tonight we see from now on. Klesla is just Klesla, you know what you're getting, I'm not sure he's any better than Methot or Holden right now.
4. Drafting Ryan Johansen - I know this will be controversial, but Fowler would have been a better pick as of right now. Can that change? Sure, but right now I don't like it.
5. Still no #1 center or #1 defenseman - You can argue the cap budget and players not wanting to sign here and whatnot, but the fact of the matter is the same holes are still there at the end of the day.
6. Making Nash the C right after trading Foote - Too early to do so IMO.
7. Not improving the defense via UFA - This goes over the last 3 years.
8. Not having a backup plan at center last year - Brass was bad last year, and we did not have anyone else to step up and take over in the meantime. Could be that way again this year, we'll see.
9. Uber patience - Could be good sometimes, could be bad sometimes. We know we could've had Bieksa and Souray for decent prices. Who knows what else we could have had??
10 ****, there's more good than bad, I got some thinking to do.

The Ugly

1. Commodore - Self explanatory


To be determined

1. Johansen, Filatov, and Moore - All 1st rounders, need to find out if they're good NHLers. So a pass for now.
2. Mason's extension - We could have waited until next summer, but we'll see.
3. Scott Arniel - So far so good


Ultimately it is up to Scott Howson to cement his general managing legacy in Columbus.

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Old
10-26-2010, 06:32 AM
  #129
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I think overall your assessment is well thought out, TW. I don't agree with the Fowler over Johansen point - at the very least, it has to be in the 'to be determined' list. I think we will be happy with the Johansen pick 4-5 years from now. I also am not sure how much it was Howson's decision to give the 'C' to Nash.

All in all, I think the positives outweigh the negatives (although Commodore is looking more and more like a huge stain on his record).

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10-26-2010, 07:30 AM
  #130
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TW, I don't consider Johansen to be a bad pick. Replace his name with Filatov and you've got something. Drafting an undersized Russian flight risk with your high first round pick still boggles the mind.

And yes, I consider letting Malhotra walk to be a mistake. Overall though, a fair analysis.


Last edited by leesmith: 10-26-2010 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Edited after re-reading the referenced post
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Old
10-26-2010, 07:50 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
I'll offer my opinion on Howson and try to be as fair as I can.

*snip*

10 ****, there's more good than bad, I got some thinking to do.
That's funny.


Quote:
Ultimately it is up to Scott Howson to cement his general managing legacy in Columbus.
Exactly right and sort of what I've been saying - minus the snappy catch phrase. Howson's done what he's done largely on purpose. Now it remains to be seen whether his methods add up to on-ice success.

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10-26-2010, 07:52 AM
  #132
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Good analysis, TW. I may not agree with everything, but it's all presented fairly.

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10-26-2010, 07:54 AM
  #133
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Doug Maclean drafted Rick Nash and managed to get Steve Mason in the 3rd round


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10-26-2010, 08:05 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Gulvorn View Post
Doug Maclean drafted Rick Nash and managed to get Steve Mason in the 3rd round

The Fire Maclean Tread has been closed for quite some time.

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10-26-2010, 08:08 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
The Fire Maclean Tread has been closed for quite some time.
Howson never drafted Rick Nash or Steve Mason. Maclean is clearly better

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10-27-2010, 10:01 AM
  #136
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Howson never drafted Rick Nash or Steve Mason. Maclean is clearly better
What kind of hockey expert are you? Hell you're probably not even from the Maritimes.

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10-27-2010, 10:15 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Since I'm in a good mood after a win I'll offer my opinion on Howson and try to be as fair as I can.
Nicely done.

I submit the following additions to your assessment:

Good: Vermette and Russell extensions. Both have been playing well - okay, scratch that, Vermette has been playing superbly. The extensions seem a tad controversial, but he's had as many hits as near misses.

Bad: Reaching for Wade Redden. Didn't get him, and thank G-d for that, but he tried. Although some here would argue that he "made up for that" with Commodore.

Also, I think #4 under The Bad should be under To Be Determined, #6 under The Bad is not necessarily on him (Nash asked and Hitch concurred) and might not be a bad thing to begin with, and #4 under The Good is a bit silly since it says more about his drafting than his trading. (That and I'm still convinced that return had more to do with us theoretically being able to build a case for tampering on the Avs' part...)

Also, you slightly contradict yourself with #3 in The Good and #5 in The Bad. "Slightly" 'cause Vermette isn't a star #1, and we still kind of need a #1 defenseman. But still, nitpick nitpick nitpick.

It's good to know, though, that when the chips are down, I'm not the only one who's seeing more positives than negatives.

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10-27-2010, 12:31 PM
  #138
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Well I guess a question is, has Vermette been playing well this year? We pretty much won that trade by a landslide, but I'm not sure he's anywhere near what he was at the end of last year.

We've created these odd pairings in which certain people are playing at much higher level then others.

We're starting to create a situation in which teams have to adjust to us. Curious to see how it plays out. As Arniel gets more comfortable with the team it looks like he's going to have no end of comments to management. Wonder how that will translate to player moves, if any.

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10-27-2010, 01:25 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Well I guess a question is, has Vermette been playing well this year? We pretty much won that trade by a landslide, but I'm not sure he's anywhere near what he was at the end of last year.

We've created these odd pairings in which certain people are playing at much higher level then others.

We're starting to create a situation in which teams have to adjust to us. Curious to see how it plays out. As Arniel gets more comfortable with the team it looks like he's going to have no end of comments to management. Wonder how that will translate to player moves, if any.
maybe a diff take on it...with how HCSA are moving ppl around this early, maybe he's trying to get several ppl to gel together so that teams can't scheme the same way against us b/c the line up is going to totally change? dunno, just trying to take a different look on it...

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10-27-2010, 01:39 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
maybe a diff take on it...with how HCSA are moving ppl around this early, maybe he's trying to get several ppl to gel together so that teams can't scheme the same way against us b/c the line up is going to totally change? dunno, just trying to take a different look on it...
Mmmm... Probably weren't playing well enough for something that sophisticated. For now, I'll just go with searching for something to work. Obviously injuries played into the mix as well. But he does seem to be considering all the backup plans based on the discussion about the change in the PP.

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10-27-2010, 02:18 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Mmmm... Probably weren't playing well enough for something that sophisticated. For now, I'll just go with searching for something to work. Obviously injuries played into the mix as well. But he does seem to be considering all the backup plans based on the discussion about the change in the PP.
i think you're right...i was just throwing out a different thought on the subject...but i agree, the team was just coming off a tail beating and he had to change something...

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10-27-2010, 03:07 PM
  #142
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i think you're right...i was just throwing out a different thought on the subject...but i agree, the team was just coming off a tail beating and he had to change something...
Hey, I hope he thinks like you suggested.

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10-27-2010, 03:11 PM
  #143
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For the last time, Phalsson was the replacement for Peca.
Phalsson is a replacement for peca that met with the approval of the then head coach. theres no doubt peca got on hitches nerves, so im guessing that move was made to eliminate friction between coach and team. Didnt work, but it at least made sense as a move to make.

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10-27-2010, 03:12 PM
  #144
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When you make a comparison, the word to use is than, when you are discussing time it is then

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10-27-2010, 03:19 PM
  #145
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When you make a comparison, the word to use is than, when you are discussing time it is then

Read it again, Mr. Grammarian, I used it correctly. "Then head coach" is historically speaking, therefore the use of then.

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10-27-2010, 03:33 PM
  #146
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Please believe that I ask the question below with the utmost sincerity. I've had an account here for a few years, but haven't ever been a regular reader/commenter, so I'm sure I missed all the discussions in the past.

I get that many of you have had misgivings about Howson for quite some time, and cite that he was only really "active" one off-season. I personally thought the post-playoffs-off-season he was still moderately active, bringing in Pahlsson and Garon (the latter was, in most people I know's opinion, a very solid move) and addressing a couple of the holes left on a roster that had just dipped its toe into the playoff pool and looked to get the moxie to actually jump into the deep end. FWIW, I thought those two moves and the Moore draft pick were spot-on at the time. On opening night 2009, I thought the team was heading back to the playoffs, possibly while picking up 3 or 4 more points along the way in the regular season.

And, I'm not saying this about ANYONE here, but as a card-carrying Browns fan (read: addict, in that I've seen the negative effects being one has on my mood/life/general outlook, but can't kick them for the life of me), I've seen/argued with my share of Randy-Quaid-from-Major-League-2 fans that immediately play the "I Told You So!" card at the first sign of trouble. You know, sort of like posting a "Fire Howson Thread" right after a humiliating loss.

So, with all of that in mind, I ask:

When the club was 12-6-2 through its first 20 in 2009, were the questions about Howson's off-season performance and forecasts of doom prevalent then? Or, did it take the complete collapse to decide that his "inactivity" had cost the team last year?

Again, I'm legitimately asking if everyone was concerned about his perceived quiet off-season in 2009 based on my own ignorance of the mood here in this forum at the time, not trying to stir the pot.

To me, it's easy to point out positives and negatives, as TW did very eloquently above. There are plenty of each. He's certainly set himself up for a "live by the sword/die by the sword" committment to this corps. Regarding his employment tenure, as someone famously once said, "All things end badly, or else they wouldn't end."

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10-27-2010, 03:37 PM
  #147
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theres no doubt peca got on hitches nerves,
That is a fair statement.

Quote:
so im guessing that move was made to eliminate friction between coach and team. Didnt work, but it at least made sense as a move to make.
Although I don't think that relationship was bad enough where either party was going to end it just because of personalities. Nor do I think Hitch was all that concerned about anything Peca was doing to drive a wedge between coach and team.

I think that relationship ended because Hitch and Howson thought Peca was done (that pissed Peca off to no end). It would appear the rest of the league thought so as well.

There was another player that had a fairly famous blowup (if only among the players) on the bench during a game with Hitch and Hitch wanted that player back at contract renewal time. I got the feeling Hitch let those type of things bounce off him for the most part.

There was no question, however, that from time to time Peca was pretty outspoken about his issues with Hitch. However, I'm fairly certain the only players that really payed attention to it were the players that already had issues with Hitch.

Wow, that had almost nothing to do with Howson.

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10-27-2010, 10:16 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFNY5Hole View Post
Please believe that I ask the question below with the utmost sincerity. I've had an account here for a few years, but haven't ever been a regular reader/commenter, so I'm sure I missed all the discussions in the past.

I get that many of you have had misgivings about Howson for quite some time, and cite that he was only really "active" one off-season. I personally thought the post-playoffs-off-season he was still moderately active, bringing in Pahlsson and Garon (the latter was, in most people I know's opinion, a very solid move) and addressing a couple of the holes left on a roster that had just dipped its toe into the playoff pool and looked to get the moxie to actually jump into the deep end. FWIW, I thought those two moves and the Moore draft pick were spot-on at the time. On opening night 2009, I thought the team was heading back to the playoffs, possibly while picking up 3 or 4 more points along the way in the regular season.

And, I'm not saying this about ANYONE here, but as a card-carrying Browns fan (read: addict, in that I've seen the negative effects being one has on my mood/life/general outlook, but can't kick them for the life of me), I've seen/argued with my share of Randy-Quaid-from-Major-League-2 fans that immediately play the "I Told You So!" card at the first sign of trouble. You know, sort of like posting a "Fire Howson Thread" right after a humiliating loss.

So, with all of that in mind, I ask:

When the club was 12-6-2 through its first 20 in 2009, were the questions about Howson's off-season performance and forecasts of doom prevalent then? Or, did it take the complete collapse to decide that his "inactivity" had cost the team last year?

Again, I'm legitimately asking if everyone was concerned about his perceived quiet off-season in 2009 based on my own ignorance of the mood here in this forum at the time, not trying to stir the pot.

To me, it's easy to point out positives and negatives, as TW did very eloquently above. There are plenty of each. He's certainly set himself up for a "live by the sword/die by the sword" committment to this corps. Regarding his employment tenure, as someone famously once said, "All things end badly, or else they wouldn't end."
Prevalent? No. There were a few folks who were concerned, but by and large it was good times are good and we're headed to the Promised Land, praise be and hallelujah.


Random fun fact: Through eight games, our record was 5-3-0 in 2009-2010. OMFG!

...although at that point we were on a two game losing rather than winning streak...

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10-27-2010, 11:38 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFNY5Hole View Post
Please believe that I ask the question below with the utmost sincerity. I've had an account here for a few years, but haven't ever been a regular reader/commenter, so I'm sure I missed all the discussions in the past.

I get that many of you have had misgivings about Howson for quite some time, and cite that he was only really "active" one off-season. I personally thought the post-playoffs-off-season he was still moderately active, bringing in Pahlsson and Garon (the latter was, in most people I know's opinion, a very solid move) and addressing a couple of the holes left on a roster that had just dipped its toe into the playoff pool and looked to get the moxie to actually jump into the deep end. FWIW, I thought those two moves and the Moore draft pick were spot-on at the time. On opening night 2009, I thought the team was heading back to the playoffs, possibly while picking up 3 or 4 more points along the way in the regular season.

And, I'm not saying this about ANYONE here, but as a card-carrying Browns fan (read: addict, in that I've seen the negative effects being one has on my mood/life/general outlook, but can't kick them for the life of me), I've seen/argued with my share of Randy-Quaid-from-Major-League-2 fans that immediately play the "I Told You So!" card at the first sign of trouble. You know, sort of like posting a "Fire Howson Thread" right after a humiliating loss.

So, with all of that in mind, I ask:

When the club was 12-6-2 through its first 20 in 2009, were the questions about Howson's off-season performance and forecasts of doom prevalent then? Or, did it take the complete collapse to decide that his "inactivity" had cost the team last year?

Again, I'm legitimately asking if everyone was concerned about his perceived quiet off-season in 2009 based on my own ignorance of the mood here in this forum at the time, not trying to stir the pot.

To me, it's easy to point out positives and negatives, as TW did very eloquently above. There are plenty of each. He's certainly set himself up for a "live by the sword/die by the sword" committment to this corps. Regarding his employment tenure, as someone famously once said, "All things end badly, or else they wouldn't end."
Well since I started the thread, I feel it's incumbent upon me to reply. I too am a lifelong Browns fan. So lifelong, I actually saw them win the NFL Championship. I saw Jim Brown play.

I have never been someone who constantly complains about anything. My feelings about Howson and frankly team ownership go much deeper than any one bad loss. I'd like to fire the owners too, and I know some of the ownership group.

I have been unhappy since Howson's second off-season. I wasn't against the Commodore signing at the time, so much as I could not believe Howson made almost no attempt to fill the biggest gaps in the line-up. Slowly, even in the 08-09 playoff season, I began to realize Howson had stocked a team full of players who had little resiliency. Even that year, when things went against them you could see their shoulders sag. I will never forget the when the arena was packed that playoff year, and the team would start out weakly in a game and just quit when things didn't go their way. I remember a Dallas game, sold out- big collapse, Ducks same and who can forget the embarassment the Red Wings laid on the Jackets one week after Nash's unassisted hat trick in Detroit? It wasn't a coaching problem, it was a roster problem. Scouts and GMs not just in the NHL, but in pretty much all major sports palce a great deal of importance in how a player reacts when there is some adversity. So does Columbus's staff, apparently they look for them and then acquire them.
I'm unhappy with the organizational culture. Great organizations strive for excellence in every facet of the business. Do you believe Howson turns over every effort to improve the team? Compare his "actions" or lack thereof to what I consider excellent organizations like: Philly, NJ, Colorado, Nashville, Detroit, among others. They have high standards, they are always trying to improve their team. Each of them had a bad year recently- ok well the Devils bad year seems to be THIS year, but look at the record, all bounced back the next year. Columbus has been looking to bounce up for ten years.

Is game operations excellent? Business operations? Anything? Bueller....Bueller...

I'm insulted by business operations too. Every year since the Jackets were born, I've bought a ticket package, and starting before the lockout, I bought full PSLs and season tickets. I pay the team $7000 per year for season tickets, go to 38-40 games and spend over $10,000 /year on the Jackets. For that privilege, I get to pay more than the fan who buys individual tickets using the many deals the team offers,I get to pay full price for pre-season games.I get to watch the folks who buy tickets in a promotion line up for their gifts, while as someone who has paid this team over $50,000. I get nothing.Hell in ten years, I've never gotten a damn tee shirt or a pizza thrown to me.Instead, I get to watch my $85 ticket get devalued to about $35 by the team. want proof? I've posted my tickets here before and only wanted what I paid for them, nothing more. Never got a nibble. Sold on e-bay for $35. Now you might choose to say, don't be a fool. Just buy single game tickets. OK- see what happens when season ticket sales drop to 7700? You get weekday games with 8900 people in attendance. If that keeps up, they will be the Winnipeg Blue BomberJackets or the Hamilton CrackBerries. do you want a team in Columbus? DEMAND excellence!

So to sum it up, am I pissed? Damn right. I think there are a lot who feel like I do.

Was it one game? What game was that?


Last edited by TaketheCannoli: 10-27-2010 at 11:46 PM.
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10-28-2010, 03:01 AM
  #150
Doug19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBJFan#1 View Post
Read it again, Mr. Grammarian, I used it correctly. "Then head coach" is historically speaking, therefore the use of then.
I nice big suck it to the grammar police eh???

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