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Old
10-23-2010, 06:40 PM
  #151
DutchShamrock
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
The reason i would never trade anisimov or stepan for him is because i truly believe that both have the chance to become as good if not better than spezza and they are 6 and 7 years younger than him respectively.
That is a bold statement right there. There's about 10 guys a year that put up 90 or more points in a season. From this thread, people are claiming that Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan are going to put up 70-80 pts... easy. Bold statement.

And I agree that Spezza isn't in Thornton, Heatley or Hossa territory, so I don't understand why the nay sayers keep saying it will cost us way, way more than any of these guys returned in a trade.

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10-23-2010, 06:44 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
That is a bold statement right there. There's about 10 guys a year that put up 90 or more points in a season. From this thread, people are claiming that Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan are going to put up 70-80 pts... easy. Bold statement.

And I agree that Spezza isn't in Thornton, Heatley or Hossa territory, so I don't understand why the nay sayers keep saying it will cost us way, way more than any of these guys returned in a trade.
Because Ottawa has no reason to trade him. They won't trade him to us just because.

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10-23-2010, 06:48 PM
  #153
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Spezza is terrible defensively? Did I read that right?

Spezza battles in all three zones of the ice. He's fine defensively. He doesn't just stand there and frolick around hoping his teammates spring him on a breakaway. I wonder what the hell some of you guys are watching half the time.

It's pretty clear who here watches other teams play, and who doesn't.

Would I trade Anisimov/Stepan for him? Hell no. Why trade assets for a number 1 center when we could develop one in (hopefully) just a few more season's? Or why not target someone like Richards in July, assuming we can clear enough salary for him.

Ottawa isn't going to give up Spezza for a combination of b-level assets. Not happening. He'll cost a boatload. Too expensive for most teams to consider moving. Unless he wants out of Ottawa, there's 0 possibility of him being moved.

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10-23-2010, 06:51 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by JM3RR27 View Post
The only way the deal would work is if the Rangers include Rozsival. But then at that point they're thin on defense. Regardless here is what a deal would likely require:

Ottawa:
1st round pick 2011
Grachev
Chad Johnson/Carl Hagelin (mid-level prospect)
Dubinsky
Rozsival

Rangers:
Spezza
waive Todd White

I can't see the Rangers trading Stepan, Kreider, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Anisimov, or Callahan. In this package the Sens get a top prospect, a good young affordable center with upside, a good B level prospect, a first round pick and Rozsival for cap purposes.
That's a lot to give up. Im fine with Grachev, Dubinsky, Rozi, and maybe Johnson; but no reason to add a 1st round pick when you alreadu give up some key assets.

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10-23-2010, 06:52 PM
  #155
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From what I've seen of Spezza, he's constantly turning the puck over in the offensive zone. Not saying he's a bad player, but he's not going to boost your defense upfront.

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10-23-2010, 06:52 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
That is a bold statement right there. There's about 10 guys a year that put up 90 or more points in a season. From this thread, people are claiming that Dubinsky, Anisimov and Stepan are going to put up 70-80 pts... easy. Bold statement.

And I agree that Spezza isn't in Thornton, Heatley or Hossa territory, so I don't understand why the nay sayers keep saying it will cost us way, way more than any of these guys returned in a trade.
he hasnt shown he can put up 90 points in two seasons

and he hasnt proven he can produce those seasons without guys like alfredsson and heatley on his wings....

im not trying to knock spezza here and say he sucks....if anisimov and stepan end up being a spezza type player i will certainly be happy...the thing is im not trading them in any way shape or form for him

And when did i say easy...i said potential...if you cant see that there is the potential and skill there for these guys to pot 70 points for us then i dont know what to tell you

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10-23-2010, 06:55 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
I hope you were stating what it would require and not what you would give up. There is no way in hell i part with Rosy (a top 4 d-man), our 1st pick, Grachev (a top 3 prospect in our system) AND Dubi, who on the wing has shown signs of being a 60-70 point scorer imo.

For spezza, an overrated, underachieving, #1 center with a huge cap hit AND an attitude problem.

If the rangers give up anything more than rosy and a mid level prospect and a 3 rounder ill be pissed
Yeah, hence 'this is what a deal would likely require, I in no way said yes or no to that deal'. Everyone here is posting very homerish props that will never happen. Excuses me for being realistic. Also this is all ******** anyways, Spezza isn't going anywhere.

One more thing - dubsinkys future is at center, he's on the wing now but sooner or later he'll be back to center once he gets better in his own end

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10-23-2010, 06:56 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by NickPerriNYR View Post
That's a lot to give up. Im fine with Grachev, Dubinsky, Rozi, and maybe Johnson; but no reason to add a 1st round pick when you alreadu give up some key assets.
You may be right about a first rounder - maybe a third or later

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10-23-2010, 06:58 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by NickPerriNYR View Post
That's a lot to give up. Im fine with Grachev, Dubinsky, Rozi, and maybe Johnson; but no reason to add a 1st round pick when you alreadu give up some key assets.
Dubinsky is the only asset that you listed....

Rozsival is a $5 mil cap hit and will only have 1 year left on his deal... Grachev is struggling in the AHL.... So in 2 years, what would the Sens have to show for trading their best player and one of the better Centers in the game? Dubinsky....

Sens wouldn't even contemplate this proposal... The answer would be a resounding NO.

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10-23-2010, 07:01 PM
  #160
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Everyone talks potential but how many guys reach it?

Btw I think we got off on the wrong foot. I love the Rangers young guys...Cally Dubi Staal MDZ Staal Girardi and YES Anisimov.

I just don't want us to be too conservative. Best case, Anisimov is a #1 in 2 years? Same with Stepan. But it could take longer and more importantly it might never happen. I see a lot to like in Anisimov but there's plenty of guys out there who never put up big numbers. And if we moved one of Anisimov or Stephan for a 1C we's still have a good young #2 with Boyle and whoever else we want as a 4. My point is that we might have some tough choices to make if we ever want to move into the top tier.

I think I underestimated how blastphemous this opinion would be


Last edited by NYRangers16: 10-23-2010 at 07:07 PM.
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10-23-2010, 07:01 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Dubinsky is the only asset that you listed....

Rozsival is a $5 mil cap hit and will only have 1 year left on his deal... Grachev is struggling in the AHL.... So in 2 years, what would the Sens have to show for trading their best player and one of the better Centers in the game? Dubinsky....

Sens wouldn't even contemplate this proposal... The answer would be a resounding NO.
Grachevs first year in the NHL he was 19. He's still only 20 and I wouldn't say he's struggling this year with any confidence. He's 6'4 200+ with speed and hands, he's a very good prospect. It's unbelievably ridiculous to say he has no value

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10-23-2010, 07:03 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by JM3RR27 View Post
Grachevs first year in the NHL he was 19. He's still only 20 and I wouldn't say he's struggling this year with any confidence. He's 6'4 200+ with speed and hands, he's a very good prospect. It's unbelievably ridiculous to say he has no value
Yeah a disappointing rookie season, and two underwhelming training camps & pre-seasons with the Rangers... His stock is no where near where it was after he posted a 40/40 season in the OHL.... He has no value in any trade for Jason Spezza.... Certainly doesn't qualify as a "key asset" in the proposed trade proposal. If we were shopping Gaborik would you be happy getting back another team's struggling prospect as part of deal? I wouldn't....

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10-23-2010, 07:06 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by JM3RR27 View Post
Grachevs first year in the NHL he was 19. He's still only 20 and I wouldn't say he's struggling this year with any confidence. He's 6'4 200+ with speed and hands, he's a very good prospect. It's unbelievably ridiculous to say he has no value
didnt you hear 20 year olds who have bad camps should retire

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10-23-2010, 07:08 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
didnt you hear 20 year olds who have bad camps should retire
No, they shouldn't be included in trade proposals for premier players...

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10-23-2010, 07:08 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Yeah a disappointing rookie season, and two underwhelming training camps & pre-seasons with the Rangers... His stock is no where near where it was after he posted a 40/40 season in the OHL.... He has no value in any trade for Jason Spezza.... Certainly doesn't qualify as a "key asset" in the proposed trade proposal. If we were shopping Gaborik would you be happy getting back another team's struggling prospect as part of deal? I wouldn't....
this should be in the grachev thread.....and a potential 3rd/2nd liner is a key asset....

struggling and developing are two different things....i guarentee management

all ive heard from the rangers is that he is a good prospect who has a tremendous work ethic

cant look at only points

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10-23-2010, 07:10 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by rangersfan30 View Post
The team is going to experience growing pains, its natural but with the more patience we show the more rewarding it will be when it all clicks together. There is the arguement that we have no elite prospects coming through and sure its easy to say that but nobody knows for sure how our prospects will pan out.

The sky is the limit for guys like Stepan and Anisimov because they are so smart in both ends of the ice and when you look at the rest of our prospects i cant help but get excited. To me adding a Spezza at this time is just not a viable option. I said it in another thread the plan should be

-Let the kids that are in the lineup grow (Anisimov, Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan, Del Zotto, Staal, etc)

-In time bring through (Grachev, Kreider, Mcdonagh, Mcilrath, Werek and whoeer shows they are ready)

-When the team shows they are ready to compete regularly and consistently rather than squeeking into the playoffs then thats when you address the holes you have and make the necessary moves to be a contender for the cup.

The process could take 3-5yrs but i would take that for regularly being a good competitive team. This 7th/8th place bounced out in the first round isn't competitve, its glossing over the problems and appearing competitve.

When was the last time this team went into the first round of the playoffs and we thought, this team has a chance? I mean a real chance not a outside shot.

Be patient and the outcome will pay off
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but like many fans, you're making the mistake of falling in love with your own prospects. Every team has prospects they are really excited about. If this "process" takes 5 years, spots that are currently not holes may become holes. Are Gaborik and Lundqvist going to a) still be here and b) still be the elite talents they are now? A lot changes in 5 years. Look at the rebuild Philly did. It took ONE year. We've been "rebuilding" for 6 years now. I love Anisimov and Stepan. I think Kreider is going to be an elite 1st line winger capable of 40+ goals. I think Del Zotto is a future Norris winner. But you can't be blinded by future potential all the time. You'll never win a cup if you're ALWAYS looking to the future. Some of you act like it's not possible to trade away really good young players with tons of potential and still win the trade. If the plan is still 3-5 years away, Gaborik and Lundqvist will likely be on the decline if they're even still with the team by then and hopefully still healthy. Like I've said before this season even started (meaning before everyone jumped on the Anisimov and Stepan "untouchable" hype-train) we are not as far as some of you think. When you have pieces in place like Lundqvist and Gaborik who are capable of LEADING a team to victory, you have to be smart and try to make a run while they're still at the top of their game WITHOUT destroying the growth your young core has made. But you can't fall in love with all your homegrown players to the point that you won't trade a BRANDON DUBINSKY or Artem Anisimov for an elite 1st line center. Or you're worried that nobody will be able to fill Rozsival's shoes. Is that a serious concern?? I know he eats up huge minutes. That doesn't mean you have to play Gilroy and Sauer 20+ mins a night. You spread the wealth.

If we wait for Anisimov, Stepan, Kreider, Grachev, McDonagh, McIlrath to all develop into their top potential, more holes will have opened up by that time. Then we'll be a great offensive or defensive team but we'll be looking for a legit #1 goalie. Chad Johnson has not shown me anything that tells me he's a lock to be a starter in this league. Lundqvist is ELITE. Like it or not, great prospects or not, and great promising young core or not, this team is built from Lundqvist out. We need to be able to make a run for the CUP before Lundqvist's contract is up or he's going to leave. I know he loves NY. But trust me. He loves winning MORE. You have to make tough decisions as a GM. And you have to get creative at this point in the rebuilding process. We can't just stand pat for 3 years and pray that our prospects develop better than expected and carry us to the promise land. If a legit #1 center is available, and it costs Dubi, Anisimov, Rozy, 1st, I make that deal without blinking. We may lose Dubi this offseason anyway. Anisimov I LOVE, but you take proven production over potential when you're at this point in the rebuild process. Now, I don't know if Spezza is the right fit. He's always seemed a little goofy and doesn't strike me as a balls to the wall "Torts-guy" but in general, I'd move SOME of our young players for the right #1 center and never look back. You have to give to get. Patience is great. But some of you would be patient to a serious fault if you were the GM. I also acknowledge that there are some people like Vitto who get excited over every little rumor and make proposals every time someones name is mentioned and wanna get every big-name player available. I'm somewhere in the middle and I have to think Sather is at this point too.

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10-23-2010, 07:10 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
this should be in the grachev thread.....and a potential 3rd/2nd liner is a key asset....

struggling and developing are two different things....i guarentee management

all ive heard from the rangers is that he is a good prospect who has a tremendous work ethic

cant look at only points
The reports out of Hartford from fans who regularly watch the Wolfpack are not promising/glowing.... Of course the organization is not going to say anything negative/critical about a prospect's development....

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and a potential 3rd/2nd liner is a key asset....
No it's not... You don't think they don't already have these types of players in their system?

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10-23-2010, 07:12 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
No, they shouldn't be included in trade proposals for premier players...
Grachev is a top-50 prospect in the NHL, and some experts, have him in the top-25. He is a valuable piece, and would be a main cog going back in a trade for someone like Spezza.

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10-23-2010, 07:12 PM
  #169
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Would not want to see Spezz in a Ranger jersey. The guy is soft, inconsistent. So he had a couple good years, he has not done much since. The only way i take him on my team if Drury is going the other way.

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10-23-2010, 07:13 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
The reports out of Hartford from fans who regularly watch the Wolfpack are not promising/glowing.... Of course the organization is not going to say anything negative/critical about a prospect's development....



No it's not... You don't think they don't already have these types of players in their system?
Ottawa's best forward prospect is Jim O'brien. They dont have any players even close to Grachev's calibre in their farm system.

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10-23-2010, 07:13 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by StepanToGaborik View Post
Grachev is a top-50 prospect in the NHL, and some experts, have him in the top-25. He is a valuable piece, and would be a main cog going back in a trade for someone like Spezza.
Those rankings are based on his OHL season with Brampton where he did 40-40... His stock has dropped since then.... How can you call him a "main cog"... Go ask some Sens fans if they would be excited about him being a "main cog" in the trade proposal when Ranger fans are intentionally withholding prospects like Stepan, McDonagh, Kreider, Thomas from the trade proposals.... You want to trade for a premier player, you need to pony up some value, not struggling prospects whom we deem expendable parts of our depth chart.

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10-23-2010, 07:14 PM
  #172
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Those rankings are based on his OHL season with Brampton where he did 40-40... His stock has dropped since then....
He was still ranked there after last season.

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10-23-2010, 07:16 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by StepanToGaborik View Post
Ottawa's best forward prospect is Jim O'brien. They dont have any players even close to Grachev's calibre in their farm system.
What is his caliber? He's looked lost in our training camps and pre-seasons.... They're supposed to find value in his projected ceiling while he's struggling at the AHL level? Come on.... I am a fan of Grachev but his inability to carry his play from Juniors to the AHL level is mighty concerning.... Was expecting this to be a bounce back season for him but he had another disappointing training camp and isn't off to any better start in Hartford.

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10-23-2010, 07:17 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by StepanToGaborik View Post
He was still ranked there after last season.
So his stock hasn't dropped huh?

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10-23-2010, 07:18 PM
  #175
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What is his caliber? He's looked lost in our training camps and pre-seasons.... They're supposed to find value in his projected ceiling while he's struggling at the AHL level? Come on.... I am a fan of Grachev but his inability to carry his play from Juniors to the AHL level is mighty concerning.... Was expecting this to be a bounce back season for him but he had another disappointing training camp and isn't off to any better start in Hartford.
Grachev has the ability to be a very good player. The only problem is his confidence/drive. And he's 20 FFS.

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