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Phillies 2010 Postseason: Red October IV, R2C2: Return of the Jedi

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Old
12-05-2010, 09:05 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Yeah. Something like the first 15 picks are protected. Usually not an issue since they're not the big spenders, but that asshat Werth () had to go and sign with one of the crummy teams.
That is dumb. They're already rewarded once for sucking by getting the high pick in the first place, they shouldn't be doubly rewarded for being terrible by getting to keep their pick when another team would have to give theirs up.

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12-05-2010, 09:25 PM
  #352
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This is one of the situations where I'd really like to know what were the other offers on the table. I mean Werth got paid, good for him, and like everyone else I knew it was a forgone conclusion him in another uniform, but what was the gap between this offer and offers of other teams? It better be quite the amount, or perhaps it was the 7 year length that got him to take the deal.

Still, it would be strange if we found out that he passed up on offers from other contenders over a few million or a couple years here or there. Sure, Werth's got a ring already, but what message does it say to his new teammates if they were to glean from this deal that "he doesn't care anymore about rings, he just wants to get paid?" I hope players like Zimmerman and Morgan don't think in that jaded manner and look on this deal as something along the lines of "hey maybe this guy will be the piece to turn us around."

Nats could get better in the next few years, as long as Strasburg gets healthy and stays that way when he comes back from Tommy John, so they may contend, but chances are it won't be within the next 2 or so years in my opinion. Will Jayson still be a factor then?

On a somewhat related note, I was at the National's ballpark a few months ago to watch the Phils clinch the NL East. It's a pretty nice park and I suggest if anyone hasn't been and is planning on making trips to ballparks in the near future, check this one out. Fair warning though, I said it's a nice park, the neighborhood isn't all that great and the prices on concessions are somewhat steeper than most parks I've been to.
Stark tweeted that it was a big enough gap that Boras didn't even bother to ask any of the other bidders if they'd like to match. Still, I'm with Jester; I'd take $80 million from Boston or the Angels or whatever over $127 million from the Nats.

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12-05-2010, 09:27 PM
  #353
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Best wishes to the guy, I am wondering if the other money just wasn't quite there.

LAA - Desperately want Crawford.

Bosox - Seeing as they don't want to go past 6 years on A-Gon (who is 28 and plays LB), maybe they didn't want to go 5 or 6 with Werth considering he's 31 and a lot of his value comes from him being an outstanding fielder.

Yanks - Who the hell knows? Seems like they're more focused on Lee and they just handed out 80 mill to 2 aging players already.

So maybe this was the best option for Werth, but competitively, what a huge downgrade for the next couple years.

I mean, sure the Nats will be good eventually, but considering Strasburg just lost 18 months off his development, it could be a while.

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12-05-2010, 09:35 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Stark tweeted that it was a big enough gap that Boras didn't even bother to ask any of the other bidders if they'd like to match. Still, I'm with Jester; I'd take $80 million from Boston or the Angels or whatever over $127 million from the Nats.
Agreed. Id much rather win and make a little less money then know that my team is out of the playoffs come July

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12-06-2010, 06:04 AM
  #355
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So I guess for now we might have to platoon both Brown and Francisco in right field?

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12-06-2010, 06:38 AM
  #356
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Agreed. Id much rather win and make a little less money then know that my team is out of the playoffs come July
that kind of player doesn't hire Scott Boras

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12-06-2010, 06:40 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
So I guess for now we might have to platoon both Brown and Francisco in right field?
I think Brown is gone; they will move him to get a right handed bat. They MUST get a right handed hitter to bat fifth behind Howard. MUST.

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12-06-2010, 08:55 AM
  #358
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I think Brown is gone; they will move him to get a right handed bat. They MUST get a right handed hitter to bat fifth behind Howard. MUST.
And unless it's in a deal for a player like Justin Upton, that would the silliest way they could do it.

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12-06-2010, 09:02 AM
  #359
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I think Brown is gone; they will move him to get a right handed bat. They MUST get a right handed hitter to bat fifth behind Howard. MUST.
No chance they move Brown. They wouldn't even move him for Halladay.

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12-06-2010, 09:20 AM
  #360
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Jayson Werth to the Nats for $128 mill still makes me LOL.


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12-06-2010, 09:23 AM
  #361
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Pat Gillick was elected to the Hall of Fame.

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12-06-2010, 10:11 AM
  #362
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Unless they can find a taker for Ibanez, we're going to be looking at possibly two platoon situations... with them bringing in someone like Diaz/Francoeur to go along with Francisco. Platoon situations can be dicey given the divided ABs, but they can also pay huge dividends when they play out well.

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12-06-2010, 10:23 AM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersguy33 View Post
Agreed. Id much rather win and make a little less money then know that my team is out of the playoffs come July
Hey maybe he figured he could give up halfway through the season, still make his money, and get an earlier/ longer vacation to blow all of said money on.

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12-06-2010, 10:33 AM
  #364
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Hey maybe he figured he could give up halfway through the season, still make his money, and get an earlier/ longer vacation to blow all of said money on.
That was the first thing I thought of when I heard this tbh, especially given his penchant for the green stuff.

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12-06-2010, 10:35 AM
  #365
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I think Brown is gone; they will move him to get a right handed bat. They MUST get a right handed hitter to bat fifth behind Howard. MUST.
They are going to need someone who can produce who they don't have to pay for a few years. Werth's struggles with RISP didn't make him the greatest candidate to hit behind Howard either, though I wish he were here instead of Ibanez.

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12-06-2010, 05:17 PM
  #366
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I really don't want anything to do with Francouer.

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12-06-2010, 08:13 PM
  #367
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I really don't want anything to do with Francouer.
Come on, just give management the benefit of the doubt on this. If Charlie sees something in Frenchy and wants to work with him, I think that's worth a shot. He's still young and definitely represents the "youth" Amaro wants to infuse into the organization. If you think about it, maybe they will try to do for Frenchy's career what they did for Werth's.

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12-06-2010, 08:22 PM
  #368
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I really don't want anything to do with Francouer.
Francouer makes so much sense it hurts.

He is a cheap, young, high upside player who plays a Philadelphia game (hard worker).

Go to the platoon splits of the following site:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...je02&year=&t=b

He hit LH's very well last season AND had his best month in September, when it matters the most. Also, he has a fantastic arm so even when he doesn't start a game he can be a defensive sub for Ibanez late in games.

Charlie said that he can fix his swing. I honestly would be surprised if we don't sign him this season.

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12-06-2010, 08:25 PM
  #369
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I want Crawford in the worst way. But I doubt the Phils spend the money. Or the best player in MLB history Cody Ross

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12-06-2010, 10:15 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Come on, just give management the benefit of the doubt on this. If Charlie sees something in Frenchy and wants to work with him, I think that's worth a shot. He's still young and definitely represents the "youth" Amaro wants to infuse into the organization. If you think about it, maybe they will try to do for Frenchy's career what they did for Werth's.
This.

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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
Francouer makes so much sense it hurts.

He is a cheap, young, high upside player who plays a Philadelphia game (hard worker).

Go to the platoon splits of the following site:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...je02&year=&t=b

He hit LH's very well last season AND had his best month in September, when it matters the most. Also, he has a fantastic arm so even when he doesn't start a game he can be a defensive sub for Ibanez late in games.

Charlie said that he can fix his swing. I honestly would be surprised if we don't sign him this season.
Followed by this.

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I want Crawford in the worst way. But I doubt the Phils spend the money. Or the best player in MLB history Cody Ross
And last but not least, Crawford is a pipe dream. And @ Ross.

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12-06-2010, 10:28 PM
  #371
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Pat Gillick was elected to the Hall of Fame.
Deservedly so.

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And @ Ross.
Yeah, the problem with that notion is if he were a Phil how will our pitchers throw meatballs to him when they're in the dugout?

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12-06-2010, 10:33 PM
  #372
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Curious, will Francouer probably with the Phillies be at least as good as Werth and maybe a better arm than him?

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12-06-2010, 10:34 PM
  #373
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Here's an interesting idea suggested by Jim Salisbury...

http://www.csnphilly.com/12/06/10/Ph...793&feedID=704

He suggests trying to get Mike Morse from the Nationals, now that they've signed Werth. It makes way too much sense for the Phillies, they should at least pursue it. If you've watched Morse at all (I live in DC and caught some Nats games aside from the ones they played against us), you see he has a lot of similarities to Werth, both in build and hitting ability. He definitely fits the bill as a RH power bat (who plays RF!) to protect Utley and Howard. While Morse is not as patient as Jayson at the plate, he strikes out less* and has comparable pop/power. He hits some absolute bombs that would remind you of the sound heard when Jayson Werth's bat made perfect contact with the baseball. I'd be all for getting Morse, and it'd be a really shrewd (and probably under-the-radar) move on Amaro's part. It's that exact kind of thinking that Pat Gillick exercised when he first got here and started building a winner. It's what led him to sign Jayson Werth, and it's a big reason why he built a championship team.

I decided to dig deeper into the stats of each player. Morse's raw talent is noticeable, but he has suffered through entire seasons wiped out by injury (sounds familiar). Look at his career totals so far: 237 G, .291 / .353 / .456 / .809, 618 AB, 21 HR, 88 RBI, 33 2B, 48 BB, 145 SO.

Compare that to Werth's career stats when he came to the Phillies in 2007: 232 G, .241 / .318 / .406 / .724, 721 AB, 25 HR, 100 RBI, 39 2B, 87 BB, 232 SO.

*(1 in every 3.1 AB for Morse to 1 in every 4.26 AB for Werth, based on the above numbers)

Morse: 6'5" 230
Werth: 6'5" 222

And it's not like Morse is some slouch athlete, either. He might not be quite the athlete that Werth is (few players are), and he certainly doesn't run like him, but he has a long, rangy body and isn't a plodding liability on the bases. Might as well throw in that Morse has a plus arm, too.

I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

Also, Morse had some impressive splits this season.

vs. LHP: .295 / .374 / .625 / .999, 88 AB, 8 HR, 18 RBI, 2 2B, 11 BB, 25 SO
vs. RHP: .287 / .340 / .466 / .806, 178 AB, 7 HR, 23 RBI, 9 2B, 11 BB, 39 SO

Here's a link to Morse's ESPN.com player page: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=6300

Just one guy's opinion.


Last edited by Amateur Hour: 12-06-2010 at 10:53 PM.
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12-06-2010, 10:48 PM
  #374
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Curious, will Francouer probably with the Phillies be at least as good as Werth and maybe a better arm than him?
No one the Phillies bring in will even be a starter, they will be a platoon player with Brown and possibly also with Ibanez. Also, this platoon will fail to produce, combined over 162 games, that Werth would have.

That is not to say they won't come close enough to see why spending 18M+/season on Werth would have been ********, though.

The only position you should spend huge money on in baseball is a pitcher and at least one non first baseman power hitter (because even the worst first baseman can pop 20+ HRs a season - which is why spending money at 1B is generally dumb). Even if every fielder is replaced by career journeymen your team average would really only dip .020 or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Here's an interesting idea suggested by Jim Salisbury...

http://www.csnphilly.com/12/06/10/Ph...793&feedID=704

He suggests trying to get Mike Morse from the Nationals, now that they've signed Werth. It makes way too much sense for the Phillies, they should at least pursue it. If you've watched Morse at all (I live in DC and caught some Nats games aside from the ones they played against us), you see he has a lot of similarities to Werth, both in build and hitting ability. He definitely fits the bill as a RH power bat (who plays RF!) to protect Utley and Howard. While Morse is not as patient as Jayson at the plate, he strikes out less* and has comparable pop/power. He hits some absolute bombs that would remind you of the sound heard when Jayson Werth's bat made perfect contact with the baseball. I'd be all for getting Morse, and it'd be a really shrewd (and probably under-the-radar) move on Amaro's part. It's that exact kind of thinking that Pat Gillick exercised when he first got here and started building a winner. It's what led him to sign Jayson Werth, and it's a big reason why he built a championship team.

I decided to dig deeper into the stats of each player. Morse's raw talent is noticeable, but he has suffered through entire seasons wiped out by injury (sounds familiar). Look at his career totals so far: 237 G, .291 / .353 / .456 / .809, 618 AB, 21 HR, 88 RBI, 33 2B, 48 BB, 145 SO.

Compare that to Werth's career stats when he came to the Phillies in 2007: 232 G, .241 / .318 / .406 / .724, 721 AB, 25 HR, 100 RBI, 39 2B, 87 BB, 232 SO.

*(1 in every 3.1 AB for Morse to 1 in every 4.26 AB for Werth, based on the above numbers)

Morse: 6'5" 230
Werth: 6'5" 222

And it's not like Morse is some slouch athlete, either. He might not be quite the athlete that Werth is (few players are), and he certainly doesn't run like him, but he has a long, rangy body and isn't a plodding liability on the bases. Might as well throw in that Morse has a plus arm, too.

I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

Also, Morse had some impressive splits this season.

vs. LHP: .295 / .374 / .625 / .999, 88 AB, 8 HR, 18 RBI, 2 2B, 11 BB, 25 SO
vs. RHP: .287 / .340 / .466 / .806, 178 AB, 7 HR, 23 RBI, 9 2B, 11 BB, 39 SO

Just one guy's opinion.
I really like that idea and should the Royals price Francouer out of our range (because I hurt they are obsessed with him) I would be very happy with this option.

The similarities are certainly palpable, btw.

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12-06-2010, 11:10 PM
  #375
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The idea of Cody Ross being signed by the Phillies is straight out of the Flyers Playbook.

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