Downfall is harsh, but as far as moves going forward, I want to see our roster more streamlined, less redundant, and to trim the fat. We need cheaper bottom 6 forwards, guys on cheap contracts brought up through the system (since we did replenish our prospects more now) and a cheap 5-6 d pairing.
Basically to succeed you gotta have the young guys step on this team, maybe were too dead set in the older style of management where its all vets, I think injecting more younger roster players might give this team a new sense of energy, and make playing the game fun again for the veteran guys.
To me anyway, it looks like around the NHL these days players seem to be coming in to play younger and younger, maybe the days of coddling a rookie are over, and its time to throw them into the fire and see how they do, much like we did with Karlsson, but its time we start to do it with other guys.
Erhoff was traded to Vancouver in the summer, no? Still we don't know what could have happened, what we do know is that Murray bit on the only offer on the table and we got screwed badly.
Erhoff was traded for the purpose of clearing cap room for Heatley. That was very clear from the begining.
This was my thinking as well. In any other year Heatley has maximum leverage with that no-trade clause. But in an Olympic year Murray held Heatleys ticket to make that team. He should of exploited that avenue for all that it was worth.
That sounds more like a bitter stand point than a rational one. Anyways, I'm not going to get into whether it is right or wrong, I just think there is some faulty logic being used.
That sounds more like a bitter stand point than a rational one. Anyways, I'm not going to get into whether it is right or wrong, I just think there is some faulty logic being used.
I suppose it was possible that, like Bryden did with Yashin, we could've played hardball with Heatley and made him a wait a year or two until finally someone realized that if they want him they will have to forget about looking for a great deal.
But trade values arent that high anymore, so maybe after a year of our players discontent, fighting in the dressing room, loss of morale and direction as we wait it out, becoming a constant press distraction as the team plummeted in the standings and profits fell in the toilet, until suddenly SJ wakes up and throws in an extra 5th rounder to sweeten the deal.
The top end of the Heatley return could never equal the Yashin return because the environments were completely different. That was his value. Most couldnt understand the Thornton trade either, but that is the value. It should be starting to become obvious by now. You can suggest Murray should've got more as trade return and we are free to value that opinion for exactly what it is worth.
I think there is another thing to note about the Heatley deal. Even with Heatley, there were many at the time questioning the make up of this team. It was being accused of being a one line team that a top shutdown line and hof dmen pair could neutralize. That major changes were needed. That we had become - gasp - the Tampa model.
When a young team like the old Colarado Avalanche, with Sakic and all playing for about $1mil a year, suddenly win a Cup and each become $10 mil players, it is easily justifiable from the $40mil in playoff revenue and new season ticket sales and increased sponsorships they generated. And being champs, they dont get worse or better just because they are suddenly all paid more.
But the Sens hadnt achieved that. We had one easy run through a marshmellow east conf where all the teams had just been rebuilt by the cap, crosby and ov were teenagers, and we were the last team standing with our pre-lockout built plethora of talent elite team. And it sliced through the birth of the new cap era east like butter until true eliteness was confronted.
This team hadnt earned all those big contracts. Had we won the Cup, then sure.
So Murray started the rebuild. But with 30 equal teams, get to the playoffs and you have a chance, tossing out two 2nd rounders for a chance while we are rebuilding is not bad mgmt imo.
By that I mean you discount the elphant in the room. This is not like Souray where they would have sent him down to play in The AHL. Heatey would have been kept as far away from the team and organzation as possible.
Having a 7.5 million dollar roster player, counting towards the cap would have made it nearly impossible to ice a playoff team. We don't get Michalek's 20 plus goals and our depth is non-exsistant.
Also, do people take into consideration that The Olympic team could have been used against Murray instead of for him? How would the rest of Canada reacted if Murray was keeping Heatley from playing for Canada and hurting their chances of winning a gold in the process. Not only is there Ottawa media feeding on it, there is national and perhaps international media as well.
Keeping a player on the sidelines was not going to help the situation, no one is going to trade early season for a player who missed camp and has a 7.5 million price tag. That's what I ment when I said using faulty logic.
By that I mean you discount the elphant in the room. This is not like Souray where they would have sent him down to play in The AHL. Heatey would have been kept as far away from the team and organzation as possible.
Having a 7.5 million dollar roster player, counting towards the cap would have made it nearly impossible to ice a playoff team. We don't get Michalek's 20 plus goals and our depth is non-exsistant.
Also, do people take into consideration that The Olympic team could have been used against Murray instead of for him? How would the rest of Canada reacted if Murray was keeping Heatley from playing for Canada and hurting their chances of winning a gold in the process. Not only is there Ottawa media feeding on it, there is national and perhaps international media as well.
Keeping a player on the sidelines was not going to help the situation, no one is going to trade early season for a player who missed camp and has a 7.5 million price tag. That's what I ment when I said using faulty logic.
I see it differently obviously. Heatley foisted this situation on us and Murray couldn't have been more accommodating to Heatley's wishes. And a mediocre return is what we were left with.
The only hammer Murray had was the Olympic team, and he refused to use it. Heatley had made his own bed in Ottawa and we should have forced him to sit in it. Dany had two excellent reasons to play well and increase his trade value a) to get out of Ottawa and b) to make the Olympic team.
Murray should have simply gone to Heatley with an ultimatum "You'll play for us until said time your value is sufficient for us to make a trade or you'll sit out and be ineligible for the Olympic team. It's your choice."
Canada and the media had already turned on Heatley. He was a villian and I didn't see that changing. He was booed in his hometown of Calgary at the orientation camp for god's sake. If Murray is making deals for fear of being a scapegoat then he isn't fit to be GM.
And before anyone accuses me of being some Murray hating ideologue I fully admit the guy can draft. I just have never been impressed with his pro scouting, trades or FA signings.
I see it differently obviously. Heatley foisted this situation on us and Murray couldn't have been more accommodating to Heatley's wishes. And a mediocre return is what we were left with.
The only hammer Murray had was the Olympic team, and he refused to use it. Heatley had made his own bed in Ottawa and we should have forced him to sit in it. Dany had two excellent reasons to play well and increase his trade value a) to get out of Ottawa and b) to make the Olympic team.
Murray should have simply gone to Heatley with an ultimatum "You'll play for us until said time your value is sufficient for us to make a trade or you'll sit out and be ineligible for the Olympic team. It's your choice."
Canada and the media had already turned on Heatley. He was a villian and I didn't see that changing. He was booed in his hometown of Calgary at the orientation camp for god's sake. If Murray is making deals for fear of being a scapegoat then he isn't fit to be GM.
And before anyone accuses me of being some Murray hating ideologue I fully admit the guy can draft. I just have never been impressed with his pro scouting, trades or FA signings.
Unless people know the real reason behind the trade demand I think it is impossible to speculate about what decision should have been made by Murray.
What I do know is Murray took his best shot making the Edmonton deal and it was turned down by Heatley. Personally, I would liked nothing more then to see Heatley sit out for the next 5 years or watched Heatley give in, but I don't think it was going to happen. I know for sure it isn't my money though and it's wrong of me as a fan to just say "well, Melnyk should have just sucked it up".
I understand what people are saying about the Heatley situation, I just dont think it is realistic.
We haven't drafted a truly talented forward since Jason Spezza.
To see just how little the trades have had to do with this, pick any player who's donned a Sens jersey since the lockout. Anyone. I'd say Chara and Hossa are the only two players connected to this team in the last 5 seasons who are tangibly better today than they were 3-5 years ago. We got old, and we lack young talent because we were a) pretty good for a long time and rarely got high picks, and b) utterly failed to capitalize on any picks for a good number of years there, thanks to Muckler's atrocious drafting.
Murray has helped the drafting but failed to reverse the issue of declining players. Kovalev's best days are gone. Gonchar is a good pick up but he too will decline while he plays for us in all likelihood. Michalek's the most promising acquisition but last year was nothing to write home about compared to his production in San Jose.
We need players who will actually get better while they play here. That's the issue. Think of how many players on this team will be lucky to simply maintain their current level of play for another 3-5 years. The best thing we can hope for from guys like Alfredsson/Phillips/Fisher/Kelly/Neil/Kuba/Gonchar is that they don't get worse in the next couple years!
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This is an issue we're gonna have for a while, because we've got a nearly decade-long gap in our talent. That's not to say things are hopeless and we can't compete for a long time, but it's a disadvantage we're gonna have until we fill up that talent pool at the bottom end of the organization.
We haven't drafted a truly talented forward since Jason Spezza.
The whole post was good...but this is simply put the difference maker.
This league is built to bring down the top teams eventually, the only way to really sustain it is by drafting impeccably and developing properly. Although Murray's shown us he can commit to this and do it pretty well without drafting higher than #9, he was left with a team that had nothing beyond the guys that play in Ottawa.
When it came to Heatley needing to leave, and Alfie aging...there was nothing ready to soften the blow. Good drafting and development as a good team may not have to result in players like Datzyuk and Zetterberg, but the better you do at finding NHLers throughout the draft the more options you have and the more assets you have. Not only did we not find any replacements in those years, but we gave away assets for rentals that didn't culminate.
The job Murray's done has been okay. It's hard to say he's done badly because the past 3 drafts have been pretty good. But the signings to keep the team competitive have been questionable, but still we finished 5th last year and deserved a better chance at Pittsburgh IMO. Keeping a Canadian franchise competitive while trying to retool its prospect pool is a tough one, and at the surface it looked like Murray was coming into an easy job with a contender. In reality, that contender was on it's last legs and with Heatley wanting out it took a lot out of his hands, taking one more impact player out of Ottawa really took it a step back.
Say what you want about Murray, his job in Ottawa has been a really tough one. When you have to rely on free agency to fill holes that could have been filled by draft picks, your going to be overpaying and your gonna have limited choice...but it's either that or prepare to lose, and that doesn't fly in Ottawa.
Now, please note that I'm far from thinking the Sens are down and out this season. However, what 3 moves has had the worst impact on the Senators to date? I'm curious to see what transactions you believe have contributed the most to our current slump and our recent decline since the 2007 SCF appearance.
1- (not really a trade but) Redden over Chara : that hurts so bad, it's incredible.
2- Heatley for Michalek, Cheechoo, 2nd : Yes Heatley doesn't have the greatest personality but trading quality for quantity is never a good move. But, in the context, we had no choice. We were pretty much painted in the corner.
3- Havlat for 2nd, Hennessy, Preissing and Baranka : 1 year of Preissing. Hopefully, the 2nd pick (Wiercioch) will save this trade.
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Leclaire trade
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Campoli trade
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Lapointe trade
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If we could have kept Chara and Heatley, and get better youth back for Havlat (assuming that PlayerX makes 1.0 today)
If his value is San Jose's garbage, then you keep him. Maybe there was some problem with a couple of the guys, but so what. How many people do you work with that you don't like?
I would imagine there are guys on every team that barely acknowledge each other. Guys that are married with kids generally don't go out partying all night trying to get laid, unless it's on the road.
It's normal to have some division in the rooms as guys are all at different places in life between 18 - 40 years old.
Maybe trading Heatley was the right move, but not for that package. Nobody will ever convince me of anything different.
If the guys hated him so much, why were they all trying to set him up for his 40th in the last game of the season the year before?
Players were shocked when Meatley said he wanted out.
Dany needs to grow up. Murray could have taught him a valuable life lesson if he had the balls to stick it to him.
You do not trade away a franchise player, on his terms, for junk. There is no excuse. Not with a 5 year contract, and a NMC.
Fans forgave Yashin. The players co-existed with Yashin. Yashin performed well in his last season here. Well enough to earn a big fat payday, and for Milbury to give us Spezza and Chara in return when he was shipped out.
I don't accept that Murray had no leverage. He had ALL of the leverage. Dany was locked in to a long term deal with us. He had to play here, or nowhere.
The only positive thing I can think of to say about Murray is that he is not as bad as Muckler.
Come on. The facts speak for themselves. Look at this team. It's old, expensive, underperforming CRAP.
I'd keep Murray around as chief scout, or director of player personnel, but all he has proven to me over the last few years is how incompetent he is as a GM.
Muckler was the one that traded Havlat for junk, not Murray.
That is it in a nutshell. We've let stars walk, or gave them away for nothing or crap. Everyone seems all to happy to do it again with Alfredsson.
Yes he was a great player for us, yes he deserves all the love he gets, but why fans are happy to let on of our most tradeable assets stay on this garbage team until he retires, and we again get nothing for another star player...
Yeah that fifth rounder or whatever the team gave up for Lapointe really set this team back. In fact, I will go so far as to say that they will never ever recover.
As much as I agree the Heatley and Havlat trades killed us keeping talent balance I think a more recent decision made a difference too.
Does anybody else think our offense would look a lot different if Murray would have made the room for Cammalleri rather then cheep out on Kovy?
Reign Spezza Alfredson
Foligno Cammalleri Michalek
Saying that Fisher would probably have had to go for a winger. Sens just don't have enough decent natural wingers
Yeah that fifth rounder or whatever the team gave up for Lapointe really set this team back. In fact, I will go so far as to say that they will never ever recover.
I think those dotted lines denote a long list of many signings, trades and a few names tossed out to indicate such with Lapointe being at the bottom. You misinterrepted.
If his value is San Jose's garbage, then you keep him. Maybe there was some problem with a couple of the guys, but so what. How many people do you work with that you don't like?
I would imagine there are guys on every team that barely acknowledge each other. Guys that are married with kids generally don't go out partying all night trying to get laid, unless it's on the road.
It's normal to have some division in the rooms as guys are all at different places in life between 18 - 40 years old.
Maybe trading Heatley was the right move, but not for that package. Nobody will ever convince me of anything different.
If the guys hated him so much, why were they all trying to set him up for his 40th in the last game of the season the year before?
Players were shocked when Meatley said he wanted out.
Dany needs to grow up. Murray could have taught him a valuable life lesson if he had the balls to stick it to him.
You do not trade away a franchise player, on his terms, for junk. There is no excuse. Not with a 5 year contract, and a NMC.
Fans forgave Yashin. The players co-existed with Yashin. Yashin performed well in his last season here. Well enough to earn a big fat payday, and for Milbury to give us Spezza and Chara in return when he was shipped out.
I don't accept that Murray had no leverage. He had ALL of the leverage. Dany was locked in to a long term deal with us. He had to play here, or nowhere.
The only positive thing I can think of to say about Murray is that he is not as bad as Muckler.
Come on. The facts speak for themselves. Look at this team. It's old, expensive, underperforming CRAP.
I'd keep Murray around as chief scout, or director of player personnel, but all he has proven to me over the last few years is how incompetent he is as a GM.
Muckler was the one that traded Havlat for junk, not Murray.
That is it in a nutshell. We've let stars walk, or gave them away for nothing or crap. Everyone seems all to happy to do it again with Alfredsson.
Yes he was a great player for us, yes he deserves all the love he gets, but why fans are happy to let on of our most tradeable assets stay on this garbage team until he retires, and we again get nothing for another star player...
It boggles my mind.
We need to rebuild.
Gosh, in what grade are you? Not able to construct an argumentation?
I'm sorry but I won't waste time answering 25 random 1 liners...
I don't accept that Murray had no leverage. He had ALL of the leverage. Dany was locked in to a long term deal with us. He had to play here, or nowhere.
We need to rebuild.
Sure Murray had leverage, but it would've been a Pyrrhic victory. And to what end? To get an extra 4th rounder tossed into the deal? Or to force him to play out the string with no heart like Yashins spectacularly failed return?
You say, so what if teammates didnt get along, as if team chemistry is a non-issue.
As with Hasek who bailed on the team, Heatley didnt want to be here and the players didnt want him back.
I can understand the first reaction to be angry, and go into denial, and not accept that that is pretty much the best we can do. But to pout as your players are saying bite the bullet, we want to move on, in some unrealistic hope that the old cba trade values will magically return or that your desire for vengeance will be sated is really going nowhere good in the end. Time to accept reality and move forward.
And continue the rebuild. Which we did. And will do every year.
1.Cap It killed a ridiculous team
2. Heatley No explanation needed
3.The old guys The team is getting old and some of the guys we have have lost a step
So this all boils down to trading hossa+devriese for heatly we would in turn still have hossa and less of a cap hit.....a better all round player and better teammate.
Sure Murray had leverage, but it would've been a Pyrrhic victory. And to what end? To get an extra 4th rounder tossed into the deal? Or to force him to play out the string with no heart like Yashins spectacularly failed return?
You say, so what if teammates didnt get along, as if team chemistry is a non-issue.
As with Hasek who bailed on the team, Heatley didnt want to be here and the players didnt want him back.
I can understand the first reaction to be angry, and go into denial, and not accept that that is pretty much the best we can do. But to pout as your players are saying bite the bullet, we want to move on, in some unrealistic hope that the old cba trade values will magically return or that your desire for vengeance will be sated is really going nowhere good in the end. Time to accept reality and move forward.
And continue the rebuild. Which we did. And will do every year.
That is simply not true. Heatley was well liked in the room from all accounts. Didn't Alfredsson and Phillips reach out to him?
In Yashin's "failed" return, he scored 40 and assisted on 48.
Well the Heatley trade was really bad. We could have gotten way more than a second and MM (MM is a really good player though).
Factor signing AK27 instead of Havlat (who would have solved our secondary scoring issues and could help Spezza carry the team once Alfie retires). Makes me wonder what was going on in BM's head.
Well the Heatley trade was really bad. We could have gotten way more than a second and MM (MM is a really good player though).
Factor signing AK27 instead of Havlat (who would have solved our secondary scoring issues and could help Spezza carry the team once Alfie retires). Makes me wonder what was going on in BM's head.
Well of course you could have gotten more in a trade, but you are one of this planets most impressive specimens. Holding an NHL GM to the lofty standards set by you in a hockey pool is surely most unfair.
And Muckler felt forced to trade one year of Havlat who he couldnt afford at the end of the year for that $600k dman who helped us get to the finals, not Murray.
