There have been many goalies who have had less pedigree than Schneider who have turned into great goalies, and others who were can't miss you didn't. You cannot hold the fact he has had 13 career games played against him. How many did Ward have before the cup win. If Halak can turn into a very good goalie why not Cory. Dominic Hasek was the backup to Ed Belfour both Hall of fame goalies both goalies who did not star in the NHL uptil their mid 20's. It is far too early to bring up any of these people but it is also to early to say it is not possible. It is very possible he becomes our Mike Smith but let's not just assume Scheider has no future with the Canucks. Anything can happen.
Except in what scenario do you see Schneider having a future with the Canucks? He'll probably have to win us the cup before we even think about trading Luongo. Otherwise, we'll likely lose Schneider for practically nothing. If Halak can't even fetch an NHL-ready player, I can't even begin to imagine the bag of magic beans we'll be offered for Schneider and that really sucks because of all the time and effort we spent on developing him.
This makes zero sense to me. We take a 2004 1st round pick, develop him for 6 years to the point where he is an NHL-calibre player, only to trade him for a 1st round pick in a future draft!
What's the point?
IMO, providing he continues to show that he is an NHL player, if he were to be traded, there would have to be an equivalent player coming back.
That's the value of a goaltender in recent years unfortunately. Halak was traded for less than that. The Canucks can hold on to him, but if they shop him, they aren't going to receive much back. Playing 25 games as a rookie, even if you play very well, isn't going to raise your value by any great extent.
Drafting goalies in the first round is a huge risk. If the Canucks can get back an equal or greater asset to the 26th overall pick, it comes out as a win.
That's the value of a goaltender in recent years unfortunately. Halak was traded for less than that. The Canucks can hold on to him, but if they shop him, they aren't going to receive much back. Playing 25 games as a rookie, even if you play very well, isn't going to raise your value by any great extent.
Drafting goalies in the first round is a huge risk. If the Canucks can get back an equal or greater asset to the 26th overall pick, it comes out as a win.
How is that a win?
Trading a young goalie who looks to be good enough to start in the NHL in the near future for a complete unknown. Oh right this is HFBoard where every future draft pick is great and every previous pick is losing value by the day.
I'd rather keep Schneider and play him 25 games a year for at least three years. Then trade him for something useful to the team at that time even if it's more of a depth player. If Luongo ever gets hurt we have a guy who's ready to step in and prove himself. Meanwhile that crybaby Luongo can rest up for the playoffs where he better be at his best to justify his ridiculous and insane lifetime contract.
Except in what scenario do you see Schneider having a future with the Canucks? He'll probably have to win us the cup before we even think about trading Luongo. Otherwise, we'll likely lose Schneider for practically nothing. If Halak can't even fetch an NHL-ready player, I can't even begin to imagine the bag of magic beans we'll be offered for Schneider and that really sucks because of all the time and effort we spent on developing him.
Does Luongo have a no trade clause? Anyways the best thing about having Cory develop is that it changes the identity of the team. Not long ago this was the goalie's team. Now if they win with two different goalies it gives the players confidence that they are a good team whoever is in net. If the Canucks like the makeup of Cory better and think he gives the team the best chance to win they will trade Luongo. This is a long ways from happening. Luongo would not be hard to trade with his reasonable salary cap hit. If Schneider outplays Luongo the canucks will not trade Schneider, nor should they. Right now is the perfect situation Luongo is playing well and Schneider is playing great. There is no hurry to make a decision Schneider has a two year contract and is still a restricted free agent after that. Just keep giving him games!!
This is the biggest thing that I've enjoyed about Schneider over the years. He's been like this pretty much from day one as a pro, and was a majour point in his draft reports. Very underrated skill with goalies, and yes, Halak's best trait. We'll see when he faces some adversity, but so far he looks just like the goalie that a lot of people considered the best goalie in the AHL.
Does Luongo have a no trade clause? Anyways the best thing about having Cory develop is that it changes the identity of the team. Not long ago this was the goalie's team. Now if they win with two different goalies it gives the players confidence that they are a good team whoever is in net. If the Canucks like the makeup of Cory better and think he gives the team the best chance to win they will trade Luongo. This is a long ways from happening. Luongo would not be hard to trade with his reasonable salary cap hit. If Schneider outplays Luongo the canucks will not trade Schneider, nor should they. Right now is the perfect situation Luongo is playing well and Schneider is playing great. There is no hurry to make a decision Schneider has a two year contract and is still a restricted free agent after that. Just keep giving him games!!
Yes. I have no idea how you missed it.
And can we wait before we start calling him a starting goaltender or the new Halak or better than Luongo? Every year we have a rookie goalie that plays well and then proceeds to suck in the following years. It would be incredibly dumb to call Schneider our goalie of the future after all that we've seen over the years.
Last year everyone was ready to trade Luongo for Rask or Miller, how are those two doing this year? Both are off to worse starts than Luongo. That's not to say the same will happen to Schneider, but it's just not smart management to make any decisions until at least the end of next season.
That's the value of a goaltender in recent years unfortunately. Halak was traded for less than that. The Canucks can hold on to him, but if they shop him, they aren't going to receive much back. Playing 25 games as a rookie, even if you play very well, isn't going to raise your value by any great extent.
Drafting goalies in the first round is a huge risk. If the Canucks can get back an equal or greater asset to the 26th overall pick, it comes out as a win.
Probably why it's usually not a good move to use up a first rounder on selecting a goalie.
And can we wait before we start calling him a starting goaltender or the new Halak or better than Luongo? Every year we have a rookie goalie that plays well and then proceeds to suck in the following years. It would be incredibly dumb to call Schneider our goalie of the future after all that we've seen over the years.
Last year everyone was ready to trade Luongo for Rask or Miller, how are those two doing this year? Both are off to worse starts than Luongo. That's not to say the same will happen to Schneider, but it's just not smart management to make any decisions until at least the end of next season.
Every year we have a rookie goalie that plays well??? Unless I'm mistaken, the last rookie goaltender to get a start for Vancouver (aside from Schneider) was Ouellet back in 05-06 (i.e. 5 years ago).
And are you honestly referring to Miller as a flash in the pan because he's had 9 bad games? How you can compare Miller to a rookie goaltender with 9 career starts is beyond me. Compare Miller and Luongo's stat lines since the 05-06 season:
Luongo: 194W-119L-37OTL; 2.52GAA; .917SV%; 29SHO
Miller: 184W-98L-35OTL; 2.55GAA; .915SV%; 16SHO
Miller has performed extremely close to Luongo for 5 straight years and you're writing him off? Give me a break. Or even better, judging Rask based on 2 games (that aren't even horrible, they just aren't good and Thomas is standing on his head). That's even more ludicrous than the Luongo nay-sayers.
I'm not saying we should trade Luongo for either of those 2 - in fact, I agree, we need to wait until at least the end of this season before we'll have a good idea of what we have in Schneider - but really, your argument has more holes than Cloutier did.
Every year we have a rookie goalie that plays well??? Unless I'm mistaken, the last rookie goaltender to get a start for Vancouver (aside from Schneider) was Ouellet back in 05-06 (i.e. 5 years ago).
I was speaking in general terms, league-wide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrockH
And are you honestly referring to Miller as a flash in the pan because he's had 9 bad games? How you can compare Miller to a rookie goaltender with 9 career starts is beyond me. Compare Miller and Luongo's stat lines since the 05-06 season:
Luongo: 194W-119L-37OTL; 2.52GAA; .917SV%; 29SHO
Miller: 184W-98L-35OTL; 2.55GAA; .915SV%; 16SHO
Miller has performed extremely close to Luongo for 5 straight years and you're writing him off? Give me a break. Or even better, judging Rask based on 2 games (that aren't even horrible, they just aren't good and Thomas is standing on his head). That's even more ludicrous than the Luongo nay-sayers.
He was widely considered the best goalie in the league based on one season. I never said I'm writing him off, I'm just saying that swapping Miller for Luongo seemed to make sense last season when he was having a career season — but that doesn't mean it will make sense for the rest of his career. As for Rask, he did look really bad in his two starts, IMO.
The ultimate point is that you don't make decisions based on one year when it comes to goaltenders, no matter how good that one year is.
(And even though I wasn't doing it, if people are allowed to criticize Luongo based on his 9 games this season why can't I criticize Miller? Seems only fair.)
(Hell, if you actually bothered to read what I wrote instead of making your own assumptions we wouldn't be having this retarded conversation. "Last year everyone was ready to trade Luongo for Rask or Miller, how are those two doing this year? Both are off to worse starts than Luongo." — this is where I'm apparently claiming they both suck)
If you'd said "there is" instead of "we have" then I would have understood this. You're on the Canucks forum. There is absolutely nothing to imply that "we" refers to what...the collective of NHL fans and players? Not that I really care, but if you throw out a line like "reading comprehension" it opens you up to writing criticism.
Quote:
Reading comprehension? He was widely considered the best goalie in the league based on one season. I never said I'm writing him off, I'm just saying that swapping Miller for Luongo seemed to make sense last season when he was having a career season — but that doesn't mean it will make sense for the rest of his career.
The ultimate point is that you don't make decisions based on one year when it comes to goaltenders, no matter how good that one year is.
I think you actually missed my point here. He was widely considered the best goalie in the league based on a whole lot more than one season. If last year had been an isolated season, I don't think he would have been. He had performed at a very high level for 4 seasons prior to last year and took it to the next level. Hence why I posted stats for those 4 years. I thought that was clearly implied (that people are judging him based on more than one year) by the inclusion of those stats, but maybe I should have stated it explicitly. Sorry for the confusion.
You also state that they're off to worse starts this year. My interpretation of this was that you're stating this means they should not be traded for Luongo. If that's a trade we should not make, then you're also certainly stating that Miller is not the best goalie in the league (if he's the best, obviously the swap makes sense). It feels to me like you're making the same logic error as those you criticize. If one year is an insufficient sample size to judge a goalie, then how can you judge goalies based on 2 (Rask) or 10 (Miller) games? I think there is still a case for Miller being better than Luongo, despite the fact that Luongo is off to the stronger start. Note, I'm not saying I agree with the case, just that it has merits.
And for the record, I think it's even more ludicrous that people would state Schneider is better than Luongo based on the small sample size (you're right, I'd be inconsistent if I stated otherwise).
Last edited by BrockH: 11-05-2010 at 11:57 AM.
Reason: Changed my wording to be less aggressive, since it seems silly when I agree with your conclusion.
You also state that they're off to worse starts this year. My interpretation of this was that you're stating this means they should not be traded for Luongo. If that's a trade we should not make, then you're also certainly stating that Miller is not the best goalie in the league (if he's the best, obviously the swap makes sense). It feels to me like you're making the same logic error as those you criticize. If one year is an insufficient sample size to judge a goalie, then how can you judge goalies based on 2 (Rask) or 10 (Miller) games? I think there is still a case that a Miller for Luongo swap makes sense, despite the fact that Luongo is off to the stronger start. Note, I'm not saying I agree with the case, just that it has merits.
My point is that outside of last season, Miller was not the best goalie in the league. His stats for five years are slightly worse than Luongo's.
Or better example, Tim Thomas — last season it was "he sucks, one-hit wonder, etc." and this season he's god. HFBoards loves to live in the now whereas you can't really do that with goaltenders. Is Tim Thomas the best goalie in the league?
Swapping Miller for Luongo, would in my opinion — from watching them both player for longer than just last year — be a lateral move talent-wise and downgrade contract-wise (for the short-term anyway).
I was never implying that I think Miller sucks or anything like that, he's IMO a Top 5 goalie but if we had traded him for Luongo, people would be complaining about Miller right now. Whereas last year they all thought he was a clear upgrade.
The way that relates to Schneider is that this season he might look like an upgrade or a later move from Luongo and next season he might look like he's a clear downgrade.
I don't mean this in a bad way, but I would like to see a game where Schneider lets in 3+ goals and loses the game.
We've seen how he reacts when he lets in 1 goal in a game and wins (every game he has started ), but I want to see if he remains somewhat calm, or looks worried.
I don't mean this in a bad way, but I would like to see a game where Schneider lets in 3+ goals and loses the game.
We've seen how he reacts when he lets in 1 goal in a game and wins (every game he has started ), but I want to see if he remains somewhat calm, or looks worried.
The whole calmness thing is getting overblown. He's had plenty of meltdowns in the AHL where he looked visibly rattled.
I would put far more stock into his size, flexibility, and technique than anything else.
The whole calmness thing is getting overblown. He's had plenty of meltdowns in the AHL where he looked visibly rattled.
I would put far more stock into his size, flexibility, and technique than anything else.
So a very young goalie having "meltdowns" in the AHL means he's not generally composed and calm? Love to see some evidence of these meltdowns, not that he didn't have the odd one, but I doubt there was "plenty." His poise has been a major part of his game since being named captain of his prep team. That's why he spent so long in the AHL, to harness his talent and perfect the mental side of the game. Mental-make-up and poise is HUGE for goaltenders. Plenty of them have size, flexibility and technique but never become starting goalies in the NHL, and that has everything to do with the mental side of the position.
IMO - the only thing right now that separates Cory Schneider from Jimmy Howard, and Jonathon Quick (maybe even Tuukka Rask or Carey Price) is opportunity.
He is in a similar position to Jonathan Bernier. Before last season, if you had compared Schneider, Bernier and Howard, most people would have ranked them Bernier, Schneider then Howard. Howard got an opportunity in Detroit, had a great season and is now an NHL starter. Schneider and Bernier returned to the AHL. By all accounts, Bernier had a better AHL season last year than did Schneider, but I can't speak for the Manchester Monarch's defense, but the Moose defense was dreadful. Scott Arniel as much as said if it had not been for Schneider, the Moose would not have made the playoffs.
Luongo is off to an ok start not a great start, Schneider is off to a great start. I think the game vs Colorado and Edmonton were very similar, in one the goalie did not let the other team in the game in the other the goalie did. Not the Luongo was bad in that game, if Schneider gave up three to Colorado he would not have been bad either. The difference right now is Schneider is not giving the opposition anything to get going. Luongo of last year was just OK he appears to be just OK this year as well this opens up opportunity for Schneider. Maybe Cory is just on a hot streak or maybe he is really this good i am excited to find out.
Yet another case of how easy it is to wave a pair of shiny new keys in front of Canucks fans.
Of course all prospect are hyped up before they ever make the NHL. In this case I think fans are excited for good reason. 3 and 0 with three one goals games against is about as good a start as one could have. So atleast some of the hype is based on reality. His last start against Dallas last year was probably the best goalie performance the team had last year. He has been in the organization for ever, for him to finally start to suceed with this opportunity is exciting. Although often prospects disapoint and do not live up to the hype, every once in a while they surprise and surpass the hype, maybe just maybe this is one of the cases.
), but I want to see if he remains somewhat calm, or looks worried.
