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The better post-season performer: Kurri vs. Forsberg

View Poll Results: Bigger stud in the playoffs
Kurri 36 50.00%
Forsberg 26 36.11%
Can't decide 10 13.89%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-03-2010, 07:50 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
It is very difficult for me to see this "clear offensive edge".
Take a look at their raw stats and you'll notice Kurri barely has an edge. Then consider that the average goals per game in Kurri's prime playoff years were anywhere from close to 7, to well above 8.

Then consider that the average goals per game in Forsberg's prime playoff years was between 4 and 5. Insanely low scoring.

Then consider Forsberg didn't regularly play with by far the most dominant offensive player of all time and I'd most certainly be sure to say Forsberg has a clear edge.


Last edited by Infinite Vision*: 11-03-2010 at 08:04 AM.
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Old
11-03-2010, 10:04 AM
  #52
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Infinite Vision:

I guess it comes to how much stock one wishes to put on adjusted stats. I can agree that one could see Forsberg being better offensively, although I personally think Kurri was better offensive player in his Oiler years. That which I can not see is any kind of clear edge for Forsberg, even looking at adjusted stats and their respective teams.

Unadjusted stats show that in Kurri's prime (which I consider to be until he was 30) he was scoring at the pace of 51 + 61 = 113 points per 82 games in playoffs.

Forsberg's unadjusted stats for his Colorado years (ages 21 - 30, later playoffs would push his average down and I tried to be fair) show him scoring at the pace of 35 + 60 = 95 points per 82 games in playoffs.

I think common sense dictates that even with adjusted stats and considering their teams, considerations which will certainly show Forsberg's stats more favorably, there still is not much difference in their offensive effectiveness. Or if there is, it certainly is not a clear gap.

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Old
11-03-2010, 10:26 AM
  #53
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Top 10 PPG rankings in the playoffs:

Kurri: 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8
Forsberg: 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 6, 9

Take out similar performances, and you have:

Kurri: 5, 5, 8
Forsberg: 1, 1, 1, 9

Consider that all of Kurri's top-10s came while he was centered by possibly the greatest playoff performer ever, and, well, am I missing something? On a per-game basis to me it doesn't look that close.

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Old
11-03-2010, 10:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
On a per-game basis to me it doesn't look that close.
PPG per playoff can be somewhat misleading stat though as it does not take into accord the amount of games played in each respective playoffs. One could play 1 game, score 2 assists, fall injured for the rest of the playoffs, and then lead the playoffs in ppg scoring.

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11-03-2010, 10:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i don't like this argument, b/c 2 of the main reasons colorado did not win the cup in '02 were sakic and roy.

sakic was not good in WCF, and roy sort of blew the series in games 6 and 7.

of course, colorado would not have even made the playoffs without them, but if they had usual games in WCF, colorado probably would have won.

i think it was similar in '99 WCF. those were probably 2 of sakic's worst series. i don't remember roy blowing any games in '99, though.
While Roy didnt blow the 99 WCF he certainly didnt make the huge game changing stops he was known to do in other series.

As for 2002, I thought Roy was amazing until he crapped the bed in 6 and 7. Sakic was mediocre the whole series and Blake wasnt good either. When your team is built around 4 superstars and only 1 plays up to par it's hard to blame him for losing.

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11-03-2010, 10:57 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
PPG per playoff can be somewhat misleading stat though as it does not take into accord the amount of games played in each respective playoffs. One could play 1 game, score 2 assists, fall injured for the rest of the playoffs, and then lead the playoffs in ppg scoring.
I'm using Hockey Reference for those finishes, and they require a minimum of 10 points scored in that playoff season for a player to show up on the top 10 list. So while it is true that a player can get hot over a few games, the vast majority of players ranked in the top 10 played in at least two playoff series.

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11-03-2010, 11:10 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
I'm using Hockey Reference for those finishes, and they require a minimum of 10 points scored in that playoff season for a player to show up on the top 10 list. So while it is true that a player can get hot over a few games, the vast majority of players ranked in the top 10 played in at least two playoff series.
Fair enough. I definitely consider Forsberg's two 1st overall finishes in scoring, while not reaching finals, extremely impressive.

While I cannot bear to watch 90's hockey anymore (I admit that my antipathy towards the late 90's hockey could effect my judgement in evaluating players), I found three games from the 84 series of Oilers vs. Flames from the net.

In an effort to see what's what, I will watch them tonight and try to observe especially Kurri's overall performance. Obviously Oilers will win as the went to the Cup, but other than that I do not know much about this particular matchup.

EDIT: Okay, while individual games are not an indication to either way, I thought to post my impressions if they are of interest to anyone from the first Oilers playoff game I watched today (Smythe division final, Oilers - Flames, game 7).

First of all, I surprised once again how dirty the 80's game seemed like. Before the game was put away by Oilers (it ended up being a 7-4 rout), there was quite a bit of liberal stick use, checking headfirst to the boards, etc. that would probably cause huge threads in hfboards today and to me there was two incidents that could have resulted to suspension today.

The game was pretty good showcase for Kurri who scored 2+1. His mistakes were few, but he did make a mistake shorthanded when in my opinion he played too passively in front of his own net which resulted to one goal against.

Otherwise he had extremely composed game. I was impressed especially when he was pressured in the defensive side of the rink. Aside from the goal against, Kurri played very well shorthanded and his second goal was a beauty of transition where he was pressurized in his own size of the rink, gave a composed pass to a teammate and on the next moment was himself on a breakaway and coolly put the puck in the net. He made some good interceptions and takeaways.

His first goal came from pinpoint pass on a powerplay from Coffey to the front of the net. Kurri's assist was just that he touched the puck briefly before letting it go to Gretzky, who then slapped it in the Flames net.

Overall it was extremely solid game both defensively and offensively. Aside from Kurri's goalscoring I was impressed by his passing game, nothing fancy (one great pass to Gretzky at the end of the game though) but the pucks ended almost invariably to the right people. Neither of his goals were assisted by Gretzky and the second goal was pretty much all Kurri anyways.

Other impressions: Extremely impressed by Gretzky, he saved 3-0 breakaway (these are not too common in the modern game) by his backchecking, picked the opposing players pockets with ease, avoided opposing hits and then gave incredible pass to Anderson. 1+1, could have been much more.

Coffey had some good rushes, a great assist and had a good game too, though also was partially responsible for one goal against.

Messier did not seem to score (unless he had an assist I missed) and checked Mike Eaves headfirst to the boards. Very dirty.

McInnis had a nice goal with his slapper.

Pretty entertaining game until Oilers ran away with it, Moog was a starter for Oilers, Flames went to 3-4 lead at the second, Fuhr was changed to the net and he did not allow a goal. Did not face too many shots either.


Last edited by vulture77: 11-03-2010 at 02:25 PM.
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Old
11-03-2010, 02:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
That is a surprising assessment as Kurri was considered to be one of the best two-way forwards in the game. While not indicative of playoffs, they both have one second place finish in Selke voting and I would think Kurri is ahead in voting overall.

I have heard that if he was not scoring 50-70 goals per season, Kurri would have gotten at least one Selke. Forsberg was more visible and physical, one probable reason for his injury troubles I might add, but it is arguable if he could have played like that in the 80's.

Anyways, I should probably watch some of the 80's Oilers playoffs again to refresh my memory. Last time I watched their first Cup-winning series against Islanders some year ago or so, I was extremely impressed by Kurri's overall play on both ends of the ice and especially his absolutely lethal shot.

I would not put Kurri or Forsberg clearly ahead in either offense or defense. However I think the former has an edge by being the leading goalscorer in 4 SC winning teams and a key part in another SC winning team while provinding (according to contemporaries) Selke caliber defense. I do not know how much more playoff stud one could be.

While no fault of his own, Forsberg was injured in the second SC winning team and had (to his standards) surprisingly underwhelming playoff production in the other SC winning Colorado team. I think circumstances work against Forsberg more than his actual ability, but nevertheless I cannot penalize Kurri for making most of his opportunities.
I grew up watching Gainey, Clarke and Trottier and I can say without a doubt that Forsberg was closer to their level than Kurri was.
I've said this a million times, there's a difference between a player that is defensively responsible and a player that is strong defensively. Kurri was the former, where a guy like Tikkanen was the later.

In relation to your post before this one....yes the 80's was a hell of a lot dirtier than people realise. Not as brutal or blatant as the 70's, just more subtle and refined.
It definitely wasn't just the happy fun time most younger folk associate with it due to how many goals were being scored.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-03-2010 at 02:57 PM.
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Old
11-03-2010, 03:13 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I grew up watching Gainey, Clarke and Trottier and I can say without a doubt that Forsberg was closer to their level than Kurri was.
I've said this a million times, there's a difference between a player that is defensively responsible and a player that is strong defensively. Kurri was the former, where a guy like Tikkanen was the later.
I remember watching some of the Colorado's playoff games in the 90's and 00's (I was especially happy the molestation Avalance handed to Panthers) but because the style Panthers used went thereafter widespread in the league, I mostly lost my interest in hockey around that time until the end of lockout.

I guess until I can make myself watch some of the DP era Colorado's playoffs again, I can not argue your opinion with enough weight. Though I would be interested in the opinion of Kurri's and Forsberg's defensive prowess from those who do not try to actively suppress the DP era from their minds and who preferably had the opportunity to witness the 80's hockey as well.

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11-03-2010, 04:14 PM
  #60
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are there any newsreports or qoutes about Kurri domnating anything. I believe Kurri was great but have never gotten the impression that he dominated. more that he was at the right place, right time and made the most of it with the big talent he had.

Forsberg on the other hand is a player that could truly dominate games and opponents. there are many examples of this. and while that in combination with his "what if" status is the big reason that he is often overrated I think it means something.

sure you could argue that Kurris lack of limelight is due to playing with Gretzky but Messier seemed to get his dues. it might not be popular but you could probably make a case that Forsberg vs Messier (post season) is a better argument than Forsberg vs Kurri. now I think Messier would run away with that (as he should) but I think Forsberg should here.

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11-03-2010, 04:33 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
While Roy didnt blow the 99 WCF he certainly didnt make the huge game changing stops he was known to do in other series.

As for 2002, I thought Roy was amazing until he crapped the bed in 6 and 7. Sakic was mediocre the whole series and Blake wasnt good either. When your team is built around 4 superstars and only 1 plays up to par it's hard to blame him for losing.
i don't think anyone blames forsberg for losing those series. but the point stands that if sakic doesn't play to his abilities, colorado can't win. if roy doesn't play well, colorado can't win. if forsberg plays average by his standards ('96) or is injured ('01), colorado can still win.

therefore, he is the third most important player on his team. that's jari kurri territory. behind two of the greatest playoff performers of all time, but i'm pretty sure that's the point people are trying to make: sure forsberg had some alpha dog performances in the playoffs, but when did colorado ever win when forsberg was the number one guy?

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11-03-2010, 08:57 PM
  #62
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Forsberg. I never got to see Kurri play in the playoffs but I had the privilege to watch Forsberg dominate in the post season. Forsberg was good-great in every year he was in the playoffs the same cant be said about Sakic although when Sakic was on he was untouchable.

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11-03-2010, 09:19 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Wow if Kurri wins this that's unreal in a bad way.
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
It may be close to some, not close enough IMO to not notice there's a CLEAR edge to Forsberg.
For all your stat manipulations, did you see both guys play? If so, I don't know how you can't see how close this is and how this could easily go either way. There are many posting who have seen both guys play, who aren't fans of either team and are giving unbiased opinions, and these people seem to think this is extremely close and, at this point, more of these people are leaning toward Kurri. Not to mention 1 in 7 people feel it is so close they cannot decide between the two, which says a lot about how close it is. I respect your opinion either way, but as I am not a fan of either team, my unbiased opinion tells me I am looking at two great two-way hockey players and this is not an easy decision. I went with Kurri. If someone picks Forsberg, I can understand that, as well. To say it's "unreal" if Kurri wins, or Forsberg has a "CLEAR" edge, that I don't see.

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11-03-2010, 09:28 PM
  #64
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It is relatively close but I take Kurri.

Forsberg did step up a lot in the postseason. He did something he rarely did in the regular season. He scored goals, timely goals too. You wish he did that more often because it almost seemed like he had a no-shoot clause in his contract. Despite that I couldn't put him higher than Kurri. For starters, Kurri won 5 Cups to Pete's 2. That's not the whole story of course, but my problem is when the Avs won the Cup Forsberg wasn't at his best. He was actually below a point per game in 1996. Sakic and Roy carried that team in the playoffs. In 2001 through no fault of his own he misses the last two playoff rounds. Sakic and Roy step up again and win the Cup.

Forsberg does have that impressive stat of leading the postseason in points twice without making the final. But that bothers me a bit, they didn't make the final. Forsberg is a lot like Gilmour that way. Extremely valuable, turned it up a notch in the postseason but you still wish they had more Cups to their name.

Kurri on the other hand was a big part of all 5 Cups for the Oilers. He never choked when the chips were down. He still shares the record for 19 goals in a postseason. He played in 7 finals in his career and also scored some overtime winners.

And we can't ignore his defensive prowess. Kurri for me.
This echoes my sentiments.

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11-04-2010, 08:16 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
Top 10 PPG rankings in the playoffs:

Kurri: 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8
Forsberg: 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 6, 9

Take out similar performances, and you have:

Kurri: 5, 5, 8
Forsberg: 1, 1, 1, 9

Consider that all of Kurri's top-10s came while he was centered by possibly the greatest playoff performer ever, and, well, am I missing something? On a per-game basis to me it doesn't look that close.
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Originally Posted by ExtremeHockeyFan View Post
For all your stat manipulations, did you see both guys play? If so, I don't know how you can't see how close this is and how this could easily go either way. There are many posting who have seen both guys play, who aren't fans of either team and are giving unbiased opinions, and these people seem to think this is extremely close and, at this point, more of these people are leaning toward Kurri. Not to mention 1 in 7 people feel it is so close they cannot decide between the two, which says a lot about how close it is. I respect your opinion either way, but as I am not a fan of either team, my unbiased opinion tells me I am looking at two great two-way hockey players and this is not an easy decision. I went with Kurri. If someone picks Forsberg, I can understand that, as well. To say it's "unreal" if Kurri wins, or Forsberg has a "CLEAR" edge, that I don't see.
You can think I'm biased all you want. For the record I watch tons of Oiler's games and am a big fan of Kurri and Gretzky. I'm not going to pretend I don't see a clear edge if I do though. If you don't put any stock into pluppe's graph, maybe centershift shed some light on the fact that, yeah Forsberg was a much better offensive post-season performer than Kurri. Defensively, I'd give him the edge as well, though the offense is where I see the clear one to Forsberg.


Last edited by Infinite Vision*: 11-04-2010 at 08:23 AM.
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11-04-2010, 04:10 PM
  #66
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I think a lot of people take away from Kurri because of Gretzky and forget that in the two years he remained with the Oilers after #99 left, he still put up 13G 20A 33pts in 29 playoff games.

Infinite Vision...at least you admit you might be horribly biased here or are perceived that way (Rightfully so) but imo you're not doing too badly in this thread.

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11-04-2010, 05:37 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
You can think I'm biased all you want. For the record I watch tons of Oiler's games and am a big fan of Kurri and Gretzky. I'm not going to pretend I don't see a clear edge if I do though. If you don't put any stock into pluppe's graph, maybe centershift shed some light on the fact that, yeah Forsberg was a much better offensive post-season performer than Kurri. Defensively, I'd give him the edge as well, though the offense is where I see the clear one to Forsberg.
It really is pnep that should get all the credit. I love pnep.

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11-04-2010, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
You can think I'm biased all you want. For the record I watch tons of Oiler's games and am a big fan of Kurri and Gretzky. I'm not going to pretend I don't see a clear edge if I do though. If you don't put any stock into pluppe's graph, maybe centershift shed some light on the fact that, yeah Forsberg was a much better offensive post-season performer than Kurri. Defensively, I'd give him the edge as well, though the offense is where I see the clear one to Forsberg.
I am not saying you're biased. I am simply saying most everyone else sees it pretty close, even to the extent that 1 in 7 were unable to decide. You are entitled to your opinion and I will respect it. For the record, I don't need stats and charts, this forum is often way too reliant on them. I saw both guys play with my own eyes. Slight edge to Kurri IMO.

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11-05-2010, 01:13 AM
  #69
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I watched both players lots, Kurry was very good but it's not even close. Forsberg by alot. Kurry played with Wayne.

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11-05-2010, 07:03 PM
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Jari Kurri was part of 7 teams that went to the Stanley Cup final winning it 5 times
Kurri holds many playoff goal scoring records including a tie for most goals in a playoff year. Most hat tricks in a playoff series.

Now some are saying that because he played with Gretzky that is why he was so good and his stats so great. Now just for devils advocate here. How many Stanley Cups finals did Wayne Gretzky get to wihtout Kurri? How many Stanley Cup finals did Kurri get to without Gretzky? Now I am not saying that Gretzky was only good because of Kurri but maybe just maybe they were good together and brought to the game their own skills that made them play so well together

Jari Kurri won 5 Stanley Cups with the Oilers or is it that the Oilers won 5 Stanley Cups with Kurri on it's team. Remember in 1988 Coffey was gone and in 1990 Gretzky was gone and Ranford was in net. So he still managed to win despite not have Gretzky by his side

In 1985 many thought the Conn Smyth should have went to either Paul Coffey or Jari Kurri not Gretzky. So even though Kurri was not the number 1 guy on th eteam he was a major reason for winning.

1990 Jari Kurri scored the winning goal against the jets in Winnipeg to force a game 7 and was akey guy in winning the cup. He was on the second line with a center by the name of Mark Lamb and still had a great playoffs

What I am trying to say is that Kurri was just as an important part of the Oilers winning as Gretzky or Messier etc...

Now I am not saying that Forsberg wasn't important. Just can't believe that people talk about Kurri like he was just Gretzky's linemate that is all

Stats wise Kurri's are better no question. Anyone can use stats to prove a point or make the player they wish to be favoured. When Kurri was winning the Cups he managed to usually get the same amount of points. I know to some they are only high because he played in the 80's but here is the thing he lead the playoff in goals. Others were playing the same game in the same era. They were using the same puck and playing against the same goalies but he was leading the playoffs in goals. That is what matters.

The same goes for Forsberg. You can't take away his acheivemnts becasue scoring was down nor can you give him more credit either. It is just what it is.

This is very close, however in the end Kurri just did more. The hard thing is this. Forsberg is the better player no question but Kurri just performed better in the playoffs

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11-06-2010, 08:36 PM
  #71
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Kurri is the third in all time playoff goals (behind only Gretzky and Messier).

Unlike Forsberg, who did not perform to his skills in Colorado's Cup winning plaoffs and was injured in the second, Kurri always produced. In all his 5 freaking cups, he was a key player in all of them. Furthermore as I have watched playoffs from 83 (when Oilers did not win) to 90, Kurri always produced and it was not because of Gretzky.

I guess that should be enough to say who was better in the playoffs.

Here is something without Wayne:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...dEbdxs&h=3ee2a

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11-06-2010, 09:16 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by oilexport View Post
I watched both players lots, Kurry was very good but it's not even close.
No you have not.

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11-07-2010, 05:00 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
Kurri is the third in all time playoff goals (behind only Gretzky and Messier).

Unlike Forsberg, who did not perform to his skills in Colorado's Cup winning plaoffs and was injured in the second, Kurri always produced. In all his 5 freaking cups, he was a key player in all of them. Furthermore as I have watched playoffs from 83 (when Oilers did not win) to 90, Kurri always produced and it was not because of Gretzky.

I guess that should be enough to say who was better in the playoffs.


Here is something without Wayne:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...dEbdxs&h=3ee2a
Well I guess that settles it then.


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11-08-2010, 06:13 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by vulture77 View Post
Kurri is the third in all time playoff goals (behind only Gretzky and Messier).

Unlike Forsberg, who did not perform to his skills in Colorado's Cup winning plaoffs and was injured in the second, Kurri always produced. In all his 5 freaking cups, he was a key player in all of them. Furthermore as I have watched playoffs from 83 (when Oilers did not win) to 90, Kurri always produced and it was not because of Gretzky.

I guess that should be enough to say who was better in the playoffs.

Here is something without Wayne:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...dEbdxs&h=3ee2a
I have to agree. Kurri was contributing heavily to 5 cup wins, Pete probably to 0.5.

Plus, Forsberg has been getting way overrated in hfboards in the last few months or so. Thatīs how it goes, now that he is hot on hfboards people start silly threads like this, but normally this would not even be a question. Nothing away from Forsberg though, great player.

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11-08-2010, 06:17 AM
  #75
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I have to agree. Kurri was contributing heavily to 5 cup wins, Pete probably to 0.5.

Plus, Forsberg has been getting way overrated in hfboards in the last few months or so. Thatīs how it goes, now that he is hot on hfboards people start silly threads like this, but normally this would not even be a question. Nothing away from Forsberg though, great player.
yeah, and Lemieux and Orr only contributed to 2.

Losers!

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