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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

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Old
11-01-2010, 03:38 PM
  #26
Big Phil
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Marián Hossa - Probably not getting in. Not elite enough in the regular season, didn't contribute all that much in his second and third final runs and doesn't have the fame factor that Alfredsson has.
I totally agree that in his final appearance with Detroit he did very little. But I thought he was very noticeable in the final with the Hawks. In my mind when you solely isolate the 2010 final that Hossa outplayed Toews and Kane.

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11-01-2010, 05:14 PM
  #27
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Daniel Alfredsson - Likely will play at least 2 or 3 more productive seasons. Best Player and face of a franchise. Will be a 13 or 14 year Captain of a winning franchise. Best player in 07 playoffs. 3rd highest scorer of the 00 decade. Several top 10 finishes in scoring. Great 2 way player. Already topped 1000 points playing in mostly dead puck era. I think he will eventually get in.

Martin St. Louis - Hart Trophy, Cup winner, great 2 way player, Among top scorers from 2002/03 through today. Only has 691 points. Chance at over 1000 if he plays for 3-4 more years or less. Not slowing down at all. I think he might eventually get in due to his peak and Hart if he retired now. If he plays 3 or 4 or 5 more productive years he should definately make it.

Miikka Kiprusoff - Not sold on him. Needs another great playoff and a Cup or another Vezina to even consider him.

Zdeno Chára - Has Norris. A totally unique player. He probably will get in but needs to keep playing for awhile at a simialr level to guarantee it.

Pavel Datsyuk - I'd put him in if he keeps up his pace. He will make it, I think, as a dominant 2 way forward on the best team of the era.

Roberto Luongo - Needs to do more. Win a Cup. Win a Vezina.

Marián Hossa - Probably will make it. Will have great career numbers by the time he retires. Great 2 way forward.

Henrik Zetterberg - See Datsyuk.

To me Luongo and Kiprusoff have the most to prove to get in.


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Old
11-01-2010, 06:17 PM
  #28
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Are we assuming Joe Thornton easily gets in?

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11-01-2010, 06:17 PM
  #29
Kyle McMahon
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I totally agree that in his final appearance with Detroit he did very little. But I thought he was very noticeable in the final with the Hawks. In my mind when you solely isolate the 2010 final that Hossa outplayed Toews and Kane.
Agree, Hossa was Chicago's best player in the final. It's funny, I thought the Hawks had blundered when they elected to let Martin Havlat walk and go after Hossa. And I still thought so right up until the middle of the playoffs, but Hossa finally proved me wrong against Philadelphia. Wonderful all-around play. I don't think Chicago beats the Flyers without him. He's still playing at an elite level, and there should be plenty more meaningful post-season play in Chicago to further enhance his resume. At this point, he'd have to really drop off or suffer a catastrophic injury to not end up with a HOF career.

I agree with the general sentiment that St. Louis and Alfredsson are probably in. If Tampa re-emerges and St. Louis can put together another great playoff run or two, he's in for sure. Alfredsson has had, at worst, Bernie Federko's career. I don't usually pull out the "this guy's in, so this guy should be too" card, but I'll do so here. Both have the "face of a franchise" label as one of their key reasons for (proposed) induction, no Cups but a great playoff run, and consistently strong regular season play. Without 2007, I say no to Alfredsson, but he finally shed the choker label and led Ottawa to the final.

I disagree on Datsyuk being considered a lock by some in here. If he retired today, absolutely zero chance he'd be in. He's only had four or maybe five HOF type seasons, and he's already 32 years old. Like Alfredsson, he's been able to shed the reputation as a playoff no-show with some strong performances the last few years. But there was a time when he had three goals in 42 playoff games. A few more elite seasons like he's been having and I think he'll be there, but it's premature to already be punching his ticket IMO.

Chara and especially Iginla were both too dominant at their positions relative to their peers to be left out in all likelyhood. But they do bug me a little in that both have often left you wanting more in crucial games. Not for lack of heart or desire, but results are results. Where was Chara when Boston was imploding last spring? Or Iginla, as Calgary collapsed over the final third of last season? These are just the most recent examples.

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11-01-2010, 06:54 PM
  #30
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I agree with most that Alfredsson will probably get in. I've made the comparison before that to me, he's a bit like Rick Middleton, who many people have called a guy who's just on the outside, but Alfredsson has a better peak as a scorer, and, as others have mentioned, he's the long time captain and face of a franchise. If he has a year like last year this year and next, I think he's a lock for sure.

St. Louis is a funny case that generated a lot of discussion before. I know career numbers have their flaws, but I have a tough time believing the committee will induct him unless he's brings his up by quite a bit. He doesn't seem to be slowing down though, so if he has another 2 or 3 elite level seasons, and then tapers off a bit after that, I think he'll get in.

Datsyuk I don't think is a lock just yet either. He has 4 elite years another another 2 good ones. I think his peak is definitely good enough, and it does seem based on the playoff and so far this year that perhaps last year was just an off year. I think if he can be a 75-85 point scorer with elite defence the next couple years he will probably get in, and the fact that he's been one of the best player for one of the best teams and a 3 consecutive Selke winner will make it tough to leave him out.

Kiprusoff is probably too old to add enough to his resume. He was great his first three years in Calgary and last year, has the cup finals run and the Vezina, but he has two mediocre years in there as well, and hasn't been out of the first round since. It's hard to say because of the lack of great goalie careers other than Brodeur in the past 10 years, but he'd probably need at least a few more years like last year and another great playoffs.

Chara certainly has the credentials to get in with his Norris and All Star selections. I think his career is still probably a bit short if he ended today, but with his commitment to fitness and the fact that he's not going to lose his size, he should age well, and should be a lock by the end of his career.

Luongo is tough. He's one of those guys whose reputation, until the past year, has always been a little better than his award shelf says. He's had some great regular seasons, but not as many as his reputation seems to suggest. His '06-07 year was amazing, but he just happened to be behind two greats and lose out on a possible Hart and Vezina. I think if he can get back to being a consistent Vezina contender after a down year last year (so far this year it's hard to tell if that will happen), and he can have some strong playoff runs (he was fantastic in his first playoffs, and was only really ever bad in the two series' against Chicago), the he will probably deserve to get in. It might take a cup or Vezina to change his current reputation enough to convince the committee though.

Hossa, as someone said, reminds me a bit of Recchi. He's always kind of there, and known as a star, but never really discussed when the really great players are mentioned. I think with a typical career arc, he'll probably get in, particularly since I expect Chicago to have some strong playoff runs in the next 8-10 years, but I think he'll end up being one of those guys who'll have to wait a bit.

Zetterberg...it's hard to argue against someone who's in the top 20 at their positon

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Old
11-01-2010, 07:32 PM
  #31
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Are we assuming Joe Thornton easily gets in?
Yes.

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Old
11-01-2010, 07:52 PM
  #32
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Are we assuming Joe Thornton easily gets in?
I assume that Iginla and Thornton are locks. That's why I didn't include them.


Won't bother to talk about Forsberg.

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Old
11-01-2010, 08:48 PM
  #33
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You really think Green will get past 900 points? I don't think he's even hit 200 and he's what, 26? This era is too low scoring for anyone but generational defenseman (Lidstrom) to hit 1000+. Even guys like Zubov and Gonchar fell short by significant margins.
Zubov and Gonchar played a significant part of their career in a lower scoring league (than now).

Second, both lost one season and a half due to work issues -- especially Zubov, who was a PPG player during the first lockout. Without work stoppages (and injuries those shortened seasons), Zubov probably ends up with roughly 850 points, but would reach 900 with adjustements.

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11-01-2010, 09:33 PM
  #34
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Zubov and Gonchar played a significant part of their career in a lower scoring league (than now).

Second, both lost one season and a half due to work issues -- especially Zubov, who was a PPG player during the first lockout. Without work stoppages (and injuries those shortened seasons), Zubov probably ends up with roughly 850 points, but would reach 900 with adjustements.
The lockouts do not get nearly as much attention as they should, IMO.
All the time players are awarded bonus points for games missed to injury, but I rarely see anyone give a player any credit for the lost year - which had absolutely nothing to do with the player individually (health/constitution/playing style). Losing an entire year in the middle of a player's prime is absolutely devastating to their placement in an all-time context. I have no problem assuming many of these players would have another 'typical' season in 2005, but unfortunately we will never know who would have had the type of season to define them. I am much more comfortable awarding phantom points for the lockout, than I am for injuries.

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Old
11-01-2010, 10:23 PM
  #35
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nvm.


Last edited by Unaffiliated: 11-01-2010 at 10:23 PM. Reason: misread op
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Old
11-01-2010, 10:32 PM
  #36
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1st or 2nd team all-star selections:
Alfredsson 1
St. Louis 3
Kirpusoff 1
Datsyuk 1
Luongo 2
Hossa 1
Zetterberg 1

Looking at that, I'd say that only St.Louis has a legit shot at making it to the hall as of today. Luongo will get his ticket punched if he can bring the Cup to Van-City!
Was Zetterberg in as a LW or C? Was Hossa in as a LW or RW?

Allstar selections are difficult to use. There's always more competition at center and, in the last five years, LW. I think Datsuk's 1 is as valuable at St. Louis 3 seeing as he had to find a way to win it against Crosby/Malkin/Thornton.

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Old
11-02-2010, 12:23 AM
  #37
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Do we have to stick to the list or can we throw some others out there? There seems to be a consensus on the players listed as to which ones will probably be in, which wont, and which ones have work to do, so no point reiterating everyone elses posts, but what about...

Vinny Lecavalier: In my opinon way to much of a career compiler. Aside from 2 seasons he basically amounted to a perennial 70 point man, who for many years now has only been the 3rd best player on his own team (behind St. Louis and Richards, now St.Louis and Stamkos) and was only the 4th most important player on that 2004 cup winning team. That being said however, his career numbers by the end may be too high for some to ignore as he'll likely be well over 500 goals and 1200 points. Throw in a rocket richard, a cup, world cup mvp, and charitable work and it gets interesting. And who knows, maybe his best is yet to come?

Dany Heatley: Hes 2 and a half months away from being 30 but lets not get technical. Almost feels like amongst the trade demands, alleged attitude problems etc etc, he hasnt been getting the respect he used to when he was widely considered the next big thing following his sophomore year. Reality is he will probably be a lock for the HHOF when his career is over. Consider he already has 4 40 goal seasons in and era when thats not an easy thing to do (and missed out on 2 more 40 goal seasons by 1 goal.) Two 50 goal, 100 point seasons, one third of the best line in the nhl at the time, 1.06 career regular season ppg, 1.00 career playoff ppg including a great run to the finals in '07, hes still in his prime playing on a line with arguably the best playmaker in the league, so it stands to reason that he has many more productive years ahead and will probably hit the 550 career goal mark. He's also playing on a team that dispite being infamous chokers, stand a decent chance of winning a cup in the next 3-5 years. When its all said and done it will most likely be hard to keep him out of the hall.

Disclaimer: Very tired at time of this post, no proof reading has been done

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Old
11-02-2010, 12:37 AM
  #38
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Do we have to stick to the list or can we throw some others out there? There seems to be a consensus on the players listed as to which ones will probably be in, which wont, and which ones have work to do, so no point reiterating everyone elses posts, but what about...

Vinny Lecavalier: In my opinon way to much of a career compiler. Aside from 2 seasons he basically amounted to a perennial 70 point man, who for many years now has only been the 3rd best player on his own team (behind St. Louis and Richards, now St.Louis and Stamkos) and was only the 4th most important player on that 2004 cup winning team. That being said however, his career numbers by the end may be too high for some to ignore as he'll likely be well over 500 goals and 1200 points. Throw in a rocket richard, a cup, world cup mvp, and charitable work and it gets interesting. And who knows, maybe his best is yet to come?

Dany Heatley: Hes 2 and a half months away from being 30 but lets not get technical. Almost feels like amongst the trade demands, alleged attitude problems etc etc, he hasnt been getting the respect he used to when he was widely considered the next big thing following his sophomore year. Reality is he will probably be a lock for the HHOF when his career is over. Consider he already has 4 40 goal seasons in and era when thats not an easy thing to do (and missed out on 2 more 40 goal seasons by 1 goal.) Two 50 goal, 100 point seasons, one third of the best line in the nhl at the time, 1.06 career regular season ppg, 1.00 career playoff ppg including a great run to the finals in '07, hes still in his prime playing on a line with arguably the best playmaker in the league, so it stands to reason that he has many more productive years ahead and will probably hit the 550 career goal mark. He's also playing on a team that dispite being infamous chokers, stand a decent chance of winning a cup in the next 3-5 years. When its all said and done it will most likely be hard to keep him out of the hall.

Disclaimer: Very tired at time of this post, no proof reading has been done
Vinny : Will have to regain form, which seems unlikely at this point since the guy slowed down (litteraly).

Heatley : Right now, he's one of the guys I'd keep away from the HHOF for all the off-ice reasons. P

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Old
11-02-2010, 12:55 AM
  #39
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Instead of bad series against Ottawa (he scored at low level) he get enough points in next three series to finish third in points race as a best goal scorer.
He almost on his own defeated Flyers and Rangers.. He was a key contributor.
All that and Crosby still outshone him, while in Alfies run he was undeniably the best Sens player.

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11-02-2010, 02:17 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by greatgazoo View Post
1st or 2nd team all-star selections:
Alfredsson 1
St. Louis 3
Kirpusoff 1
Datsyuk 1
Luongo 2
Hossa 1
Zetterberg 1

Looking at that, I'd say that only St.Louis has a legit shot at making it to the hall as of today. Luongo will get his ticket punched if he can bring the Cup to Van-City!
I don't think it's good to go by All-Star selections. Datsyuk had a 97 point Selke-winning season that didn't get an acknowledgment and in general centres have it harder than, say, left wingers.

I think he needs a strong backhalf of his career to get in, but I'd also like to say that at 3 Selkes and counting he's going to (rightfully) be considered the top defensive forward of his generation which helps him even more.

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11-02-2010, 02:37 AM
  #41
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Was Zetterberg in as a LW or C? Was Hossa in as a LW or RW?
zetterberg's was as LW, even though he played almost the entire season at C.

hossa's was at RW.
hossa easily could have been 1st AS RW in '07 (43g, 100p, +18 in the only season atlanta made the playoffs), but heatley was given 1st RW, even though he was a LW.

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11-02-2010, 02:43 AM
  #42
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zetterberg's was as LW, even though he played almost the entire season at C.

hossa's was at RW.
hossa easily could have been 1st AS RW in '07 (43g, 100p, +18 in the only season atlanta made the playoffs), but heatley was given 1st RW, even though he was a LW.
No he couldn't have, he didn't even make 2nd AS RW.

St.louis had just as much goals, being a playmaker and 2 more assist, he was easily first in line for 1st ASRW had Heatley been placed as a LW

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11-02-2010, 02:51 AM
  #43
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True fact: Ovechkin was given some votes for RW allstar last year, seriously. Marleau received votes for all three forward positions.

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11-02-2010, 07:08 AM
  #44
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Henrik Zetterberg - He needs to do more, but if he keeps up the pace, he has a decent shot by the time his career ends. I honestly would induct him over Datsyuk, but I think he has less of a chance with the actual committee, since his regular season numbers aren't as high, and he doesn't have the trophy case (even though he should have won some of those Selkes over Datsyuk, he didn't).

Umm, you're kidding, right? Or simply don't watch the Wings very much? I watch the Wings all the time. I like Zetterberg very much, but Datsyuk is clearly more important to the Wings. And, Datsyuk deserved every one of those Selke's. Datsyuk's ability to backcheck and steal the puck is unparalleled. The fact that he leads the NHL in takeaway's every year is not a fluke. And watching him stickhandle is worth the price of admission by itself, let alone his passing ability. Datsyuk does things that no one else in the league can.

The only thing working against Datsyuk for the HHOF is that since he started his career relatively late, his numbers will suffer somewhat. He has finally gotten past the playoff disappearing act that plagued him early in his career. He has two Cups at this point, plus all the hardware. If he can continue at the current pace for about another 4-5 years or so, I think he's definitely in.

Zetterberg is sitting at one Cup, and doesn't have near the collection of hardware as Datsyuk even though their careers completely overlap with exactly the same team except Datsyuk started a year sooner. He's an interesting player. He is very very good at everything, yet doesn't really stand out as exceptional in anything. Maybe it feels that way because Datsyuk is a human highlight reel. Watching these guys play almost every game, I don't sense that Zetterberg will make the HHOF. But he still has plenty of time to change that. Numbers, awards, Cups, All-Star selections ... thats what the voters will be looking at. He's a borderline case, and though I hope I'm wrong, I think he's on the outside looking in right now.

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11-02-2010, 08:25 AM
  #45
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Henrik Zetterberg - He needs to do more, but if he keeps up the pace, he has a decent shot by the time his career ends. I honestly would induct him over Datsyuk, but I think he has less of a chance with the actual committee, since his regular season numbers aren't as high, and he doesn't have the trophy case (even though he should have won some of those Selkes over Datsyuk, he didn't).

Umm, you're kidding, right? Or simply don't watch the Wings very much? I watch the Wings all the time. I like Zetterberg very much, but Datsyuk is clearly more important to the Wings. And, Datsyuk deserved every one of those Selke's. Datsyuk's ability to backcheck and steal the puck is unparalleled. The fact that he leads the NHL in takeaway's every year is not a fluke. And watching him stickhandle is worth the price of admission by itself, let alone his passing ability. Datsyuk does things that no one else in the league can.

The only thing working against Datsyuk for the HHOF is that since he started his career relatively late, his numbers will suffer somewhat. He has finally gotten past the playoff disappearing act that plagued him early in his career. He has two Cups at this point, plus all the hardware. If he can continue at the current pace for about another 4-5 years or so, I think he's definitely in.

Zetterberg is sitting at one Cup, and doesn't have near the collection of hardware as Datsyuk even though their careers completely overlap with exactly the same team except Datsyuk started a year sooner. He's an interesting player. He is very very good at everything, yet doesn't really stand out as exceptional in anything. Maybe it feels that way because Datsyuk is a human highlight reel. Watching these guys play almost every game, I don't sense that Zetterberg will make the HHOF. But he still has plenty of time to change that. Numbers, awards, Cups, All-Star selections ... thats what the voters will be looking at. He's a borderline case, and though I hope I'm wrong, I think he's on the outside looking in right now.
I'd argue that Zetterberg deserved the 07-08 Selke. But other than that Datsyuk deserved every single Selke. I think you are selling Z short though.. He's outplayed Datsyuk by a huge margin in the playoffs and to be honest.. Conn Smythe >>>> Selkes and Lady trophies.

But as of right now Datsyuk is ahead of Z.

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11-02-2010, 09:13 AM
  #46
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True fact: Ovechkin was given some votes for RW allstar last year, seriously. Marleau received votes for all three forward positions.
Yup. Happens all the time. Bertuzzi got more votes for All-Star LW than RW the first year that the West Coast Express was put together. This despite the fact that his linemate Markus Naslund was the near unanimous choice for All-Star LW.

Frankly I think that any writer who doesn't know that Ovechkin is a LW by now or who is careless enough to vote for him in a different position, should be stripped of his privilege to vote on awards.

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11-02-2010, 09:14 AM
  #47
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Henrik Zetterberg - He needs to do more, but if he keeps up the pace, he has a decent shot by the time his career ends. I honestly would induct him over Datsyuk, but I think he has less of a chance with the actual committee, since his regular season numbers aren't as high, and he doesn't have the trophy case (even though he should have won some of those Selkes over Datsyuk, he didn't).

Umm, you're kidding, right? Or simply don't watch the Wings very much? I watch the Wings all the time. I like Zetterberg very much, but Datsyuk is clearly more important to the Wings. And, Datsyuk deserved every one of those Selke's. Datsyuk's ability to backcheck and steal the puck is unparalleled. The fact that he leads the NHL in takeaway's every year is not a fluke. And watching him stickhandle is worth the price of admission by itself, let alone his passing ability. Datsyuk does things that no one else in the league can.

The only thing working against Datsyuk for the HHOF is that since he started his career relatively late, his numbers will suffer somewhat. He has finally gotten past the playoff disappearing act that plagued him early in his career. He has two Cups at this point, plus all the hardware. If he can continue at the current pace for about another 4-5 years or so, I think he's definitely in.

Zetterberg is sitting at one Cup, and doesn't have near the collection of hardware as Datsyuk even though their careers completely overlap with exactly the same team except Datsyuk started a year sooner. He's an interesting player. He is very very good at everything, yet doesn't really stand out as exceptional in anything. Maybe it feels that way because Datsyuk is a human highlight reel. Watching these guys play almost every game, I don't sense that Zetterberg will make the HHOF. But he still has plenty of time to change that. Numbers, awards, Cups, All-Star selections ... thats what the voters will be looking at. He's a borderline case, and though I hope I'm wrong, I think he's on the outside looking in right now.
No I'm not kidding. Zetterberg is coach Babcock's #1 choice to shadow the superstars of the opposing team. In the playoffs, when Babcock actually lets his stars PK, Zetterberg is the #1 choice of PKer.

Datsyuk won his Selkes because he scores more points (in the regular season) and because lazy writers are in love with simplistic stats (like takeaways). Honestly, Datsyuk's first two Selkes were okay (though Zetterberg probably deserved them more), but his last one was an absolute joke.

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Old
11-02-2010, 10:07 AM
  #48
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Nuance

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I agree with the general sentiments expressed so far.

Kipper is the worst choice here. He doesn't have a hope. He'd need a miracle.

St. Louis, Datsyuk and Alfie are as good as in.

Kudos for not discussing Thornton and Iginla. At this point, the question should be whether they are top-100 players, not whether they'll be in the HHOF.
HHOF tends to elect goalies that looked good playing for poorly coached teams. Gump Worsely had this in his favour when his days with the Rangers were considered against his solid days with Montreal.

If Kipper leaves Calgary and contributes elsewhere maybe a SC championship with reduced playing time he would get serious consideration.

This is not an endorsement in either direction. Just an explanation.

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11-02-2010, 10:30 AM
  #49
vadim sharifijanov
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i'm curious which goalies will make it into the hall. it depends what years you use to break down generations, but only two goalies of the 80s (excluding roy, who i will put in the next generation, and tretiak who didn't play in the NHL and, moreover, spans two generations) have made the hall: smith and fuhr. meanwhile, from the 70s we have dryden, parent, cheevers, giacomin, and esposito. the lack of an elite group (really only dryden combined consistent year-to-year greatness and playoff success) i think helps, to the point where you look at giacomin or espo or cheevers and ask, "is rogie vachon close enough to them to also be a hall of famer"?

of guys whose careers began from '85-'95 (the roy to brodeur era), we have four guys who are head and shoulders above the rest, so vernon, joseph, richter, kolzig, and others who might have a shot otherwise (as the vachons of their time) are likely not getting in. you can arguably add barrasso and beezer to this list, though their careers started slightly earlier than the timeframe.

but among guys whose careers began between the lockouts do we have any legit hall of famers? and when we look back at the era, will we have to sit down and say, "who were the best two guys? do they belong in the hall for being the best two of their generation?"

in the end, that might have as much impact on kiprusoff or luongo's chances as anything else. i would also add giguere's name to that list. to my eyes, he's easily ahead of luongo right now. osgood of course will also likely generate discussion when the time comes.

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11-02-2010, 11:18 AM
  #50
the edler
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daniel alfredsson - compiler, but very good team player with ottawa and team sweden, and the scott niedermayer incident was too funny
martin st louis - started out a little too slow to be a compiler, so he probably wont make it
miikka kiprusoff - are you guys kidding?
zdeno chara - eh no
pavel datsyuk - a lot of less worthy hardware to gleam with here, but he hasn't really shown to be this game breaker when everything is on the line, like his disappearance act in the olympics, he's much like henrik zetterberg, only zetterberg is better when it's on the line, he's definitely not a lock
roberto luongo - see kiprusoff
marian hossa - very good player but also an ambulant one and it probably hurts him
henrik zetterberg - pretty much like datsyuk except lesser regular season stuff and more playoff stuff, also very good when sweden won gold at the 2006 olympics

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