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November 9, 2010 GMs Meeting

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Old
11-02-2010, 05:30 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It would be a really bizarre and unique situation where a player fakes a penalty to win the Cup.

I could much more easily see the coach's challenges affecting a Game 7 negatively.
You're not answering the question.

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11-04-2010, 11:56 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Sorry, I just don't think it's an appropriate way to handle those episodes. The coach on the bench has no idea if the player was really struck. If the league wants to enforce against those situations it needs to come from the league upon careful review, not from the opponent during gameplay.
A high stick / non-high stick call should never even get to a "coaches challenge" stage. I'm still amazed how many penalties are missed - even with the 2nd ref on the ice (taking up more ice space, but that's another topic).

The 2nd ref should be sitting between the benches, just watching game video. If the fans can immediately see if a player was hit or not, the bench ref can see it too, and tell the ref on the ice what to call / not call.

The 2nd ref has not stopped the good actors from getting calls.

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11-04-2010, 12:56 PM
  #53
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Panthers GM Dale Tallon on NHL Live this morning.

He clarifies his coach's challenge proposal:

  • Has to be goal related
  • Team must have time out available
  • If challenge fails, team loses time out

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11-04-2010, 01:00 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
You're not answering the question.
I think it's a leading question. Of course I wouldn't be "okay" with losing the Cup on a fake penalty, but I also wouldn't be "okay" with losing the Cup on a legit penalty. Either way I'd be pissed.

But from an unemotional standpoint of NOT being in the heat of the moment, there is no need to rewrite the rulebook for that scenario. It's far-fetched.

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11-04-2010, 01:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Panthers GM Dale Tallon on NHL Live this morning.

He clarifies his coach's challenge proposal:

  • Has to be goal related
  • Team must have time out available
  • If challenge fails, team loses time out
"Goal related" meaning what? I don't consider an offside review goal related even if it led to a goal.

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11-04-2010, 01:24 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I think it's a leading question. Of course I wouldn't be "okay" with losing the Cup on a fake penalty, but I also wouldn't be "okay" with losing the Cup on a legit penalty. Either way I'd be pissed.

But from an unemotional standpoint of NOT being in the heat of the moment, there is no need to rewrite the rulebook for that scenario. It's far-fetched.
OKAY let's go away from the replay part of the fake. If it's not reviewable during the game it should be reviewed by the NHL and heavy suspensions given out. I'm talking:

1st offense: 5 games
2nd offense: 25 games
3nd offense: the rest of the year regardless of the playoffs. No reset. The offense stay with the player for his career.

I'd bet the Carcillo's of the NHL would think twice about doing it a second or a third time?

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11-04-2010, 01:26 PM
  #57
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I completely agree with that, it should be treated as an "abuse of official" case.

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11-04-2010, 03:02 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
OKAY let's go away from the replay part of the fake. If it's not reviewable during the game it should be reviewed by the NHL and heavy suspensions given out. I'm talking:

1st offense: 5 games
2nd offense: 25 games
3nd offense: the rest of the year regardless of the playoffs. No reset. The offense stay with the player for his career.

I'd bet the Carcillo's of the NHL would think twice about doing it a second or a third time?
The Carcillo's of the league are less of a problem when it comes to embellishment/outright diving than your Crosby's, your Modano's, your Niedermayer's and your Kane's. You willing to suspend them just as long?

If so, go for it.

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11-04-2010, 03:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
The Carcillo's of the league are less of a problem when it comes to embellishment/outright diving than your Crosby's, your Modano's, your Niedermayer's and your Kane's. You willing to suspend them just as long?

If so, go for it.
I disagree, Carcillo faked an injury and outright lied to the officials on a play where he wasn't even touched. That's not the same as embellishing a trip.

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11-04-2010, 03:58 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I disagree, Carcillo faked an injury and outright lied to the officials on a play where he wasn't even touched. That's not the same as embellishing a trip.
This we can agree on this.


Last edited by CC Chiefs*: 11-04-2010 at 05:50 PM.
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11-04-2010, 05:49 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I disagree, Carcillo faked an injury and outright lied to the officials on a play where he wasn't even touched. That's not the same as embellishing a trip.
They're covered by the same penalty, though. If you want to separate the rules and make one for embellishment and one for outright diving, then you'd have a case.

But the issue is the lines between the two are absurdly blurry. Let's say, just for giggles after last night, Matt Niskanen puts a hand on Crosby's hip and Crosby spins himself down to the ice in a heap. Is that a dive or an embellishment? If Lapierre is weakly hit from the back/side in the 3-6 foot boarding zone and flings himself face first into the boards, is that a dive or an embellishment?

And again, "faking" high sticks would be hard to determine in many cases. Carcillo is an example where it's not, but it is instinct to jerk your head away from a head-high anything. If a stick passes within one inch of a guy's face but doesn't touch him and his head whips back, would you consider that a dive/embellishment or simply instinct?

Something like Carcillo is clearly at the far end of the spectrum (the blood checking is what does it), but dives and embellishment are very, very closely related and sometimes very difficult to determine even with replay, and many star players are just as guilty of embellishment or outright dives as your goons.

If you're willing to separate the rules into two categories and punish everyone, from Lidstrom to Boogard, equally, then fine. But I think a.) it would just lead to more arguments about a guy being suspended unfairly because cases of diving are very much in the of the beholder in the vast majority of cases, and b.) the league would hate it because they'd be force to suspend their superstars and admit they're some of the more notorious divers out there.

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11-04-2010, 05:57 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
They're covered by the same penalty, though. If you want to separate the rules and make one for embellishment and one for outright diving, then you'd have a case.

But the issue is the lines between the two are absurdly blurry. Let's say, just for giggles after last night, Matt Niskanen puts a hand on Crosby's hip and Crosby spins himself down to the ice in a heap. Is that a dive or an embellishment? If Lapierre is weakly hit from the back/side in the 3-6 foot boarding zone and flings himself face first into the boards, is that a dive or an embellishment?

And again, "faking" high sticks would be hard to determine in many cases. Carcillo is an example where it's not, but it is instinct to jerk your head away from a head-high anything. If a stick passes within one inch of a guy's face but doesn't touch him and his head whips back, would you consider that a dive/embellishment or simply instinct?

Something like Carcillo is clearly at the far end of the spectrum (the blood checking is what does it), but dives and embellishment are very, very closely related and sometimes very difficult to determine even with replay, and many star players are just as guilty of embellishment or outright dives as your goons.

If you're willing to separate the rules into two categories and punish everyone, from Lidstrom to Boogard, equally, then fine. But I think a.) it would just lead to more arguments about a guy being suspended unfairly because cases of diving are very much in the of the beholder in the vast majority of cases, and b.) the league would hate it because they'd be force to suspend their superstars and admit they're some of the more notorious divers out there.
2 words with definitions:

Malingering: is a medical term that refers to fabricating or exaggerating the symptoms of mental or physical disorders for a variety of "secondary gain"

Embellishing: to improve or beautify by adding detail or ornament; adorn

Big difference between the 2.

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11-04-2010, 06:35 PM
  #63
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Diving/Embellishment is the name of the penalty in the rulebook. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26356

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11-04-2010, 06:53 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Diving/Embellishment is the name of the penalty in the rulebook. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26356
OKAY and we are talking about different rules and enforcement.

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11-04-2010, 08:56 PM
  #65
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Mod note: I think there has been sufficient hypothetical discussion on coach's challenge. But there are other issues at the meeting. Let's try to concentrate on what is actually on the agenda for the meeting.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/feed...hl-gms-meeting

Quote:
A couple interesting issues will be raised when the NHL general managers meet on Tuesday in Toronto. And, thankfully, none has anything to do with hits to the head.

The first addresses a concern over the number of games that are being determined by the shootout. While shootout numbers are down so far from last season, GMs still will debate ideas to minimize the impact.

One idea up for discussion would expand overtime to eight minutes before going to the shootout. The first four overtime minutes would be four-on-four, the final four minutes three-on-three.
...
There also will be a proposal for a coach's challenge that could use replay to overturn goal-scoring plays like the one on which Toronto Maple Leafs winger Colton Orr clearly interfered with goalie Scott Clemmensen while scoring against the Florida Panthers.

And naturally, when general managers get together, trade talk picks up. One NHL source told Sporting News there has been more chatter at this time of year than last season because of salary cap issues surrounding teams including the New Jersey Devils, Boston Bruins and Chicago Blackhawks.

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11-04-2010, 09:23 PM
  #66
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Anybody else watching the Blues vs San Jose game?

A blues player scored a goal, but at the same time was cross checked in the back, causing him to fall head first in the goal.

The call: No goal, 2 minute penalty for goalie interference.

That's why we need challenges!

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11-04-2010, 09:51 PM
  #67
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What I believe they will bring up is a new rule regarding the goals were goaltenders seem to get pushed,(an example in the Toronto game,which eventually turned out to be the game winner).

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11-05-2010, 08:26 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Something like Carcillo is clearly at the far end of the spectrum (the blood checking is what does it), but dives and embellishment are very, very closely related and sometimes very difficult to determine even with replay, and many star players are just as guilty of embellishment or outright dives as your goons.
Carcillo is indeed at the far end of the spectrum, and something that egregious needs to be punished IMO. Degree of severity is a factor, and his was all about blatant disrespect for the officials and the integrity of competition.

If a player dives on a weak push, it's up to the official's discretion to call a dive or not. Completely different when he isn't touched at all and pretends that he's been cut.

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11-05-2010, 08:27 AM
  #69
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One idea up for discussion would expand overtime to eight minutes before going to the shootout. The first four overtime minutes would be four-on-four, the final four minutes three-on-three.
...
Just my opinion, but 3-on-3 is no more legitimate than a shootout.

I really wish they'd expand the shootout to 5 shots, the result seems more legitimate that way.

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11-05-2010, 08:54 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Just my opinion, but 3-on-3 is no more legitimate than a shootout.

I really wish they'd expand the shootout to 5 shots, the result seems more legitimate that way.
It's still hockey rather than a skills competition. I agree with the 5man shootout.

5min 4v4
5min 3v3
5-man shootout

or :
10min 5v5
5-man shootout

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11-05-2010, 08:59 AM
  #71
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How about no shootout and a tie? Why do we have to change everything?

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11-05-2010, 09:06 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
How about no shootout and a tie? Why do we have to change everything?
Average fans need to have a winner in each game. When I was a kid, it bothered me to see a tie game ending.

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11-05-2010, 09:14 AM
  #73
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It's still hockey rather than a skills competition.
Yeah but it's basically just shinny at that point. They may as well take off their helmets and call their own penalties. It might not be a "skills competition" like the shootout, but it definitely isn't a good way to judge a winner after 65 minutes of dead-even competition among full teams.

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11-05-2010, 09:23 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebekoi View Post
It's still hockey rather than a skills competition. I agree with the 5man shootout.

5min 4v4
5min 3v3
5-man shootout

or :
10min 5v5
5-man shootout
I'd make it 4 min 5 on 5
3 min 4 on 4
3 min 3 on 3
5 man shootout.

Or, kind of a weird solution:
Toss a coin, winner gets a 2 min power play. 2 Min later, other team gets 2 minutes. Keep going until someone scores (if you're good enough to win the game, you're good enough to kill the penalty IMO).

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11-05-2010, 09:44 AM
  #75
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Average fans need to have a winner in each game. When I was a kid, it bothered me to see a tie game ending.
And bothers many people today to see a team lose a game and get a point and to see a game end with skills competition.

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