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Old
11-04-2010, 06:45 AM
  #51
wilfred
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If Ottawa gets the chance to trade Spezza for two young 2nd line players who have the potential to become first liners then we have to do it. If we built a young team with lots of promise it will be much easier to attract high end free agents.

Sure its a risky proposal, but where are we now, a team that can finish anywhere between 5-12 place in the eastern conference with our best player only having a couple of years left.

If we make a trade we have two younger players with top potential, we will have lots of cap space. If Ottawa is looking to attract high quality free agents (ex Richards), I think we would have a better chance of getting him with a young exciting team that needs a #1 center.

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Old
11-04-2010, 07:41 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ev View Post
Well the point was that Oshie or Berglund (more so Berglund) would have the potential to become a Spezza in the future. Berglund would be the best comparable. He has massive potential.
Nothing they've ever done suggests they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
If Ottawa gets the chance to trade Spezza for two young 2nd line players who have the potential to become first liners then we have to do it. If we built a young team with lots of promise it will be much easier to attract high end free agents.

Sure its a risky proposal, but where are we now, a team that can finish anywhere between 5-12 place in the eastern conference with our best player only having a couple of years left.

If we make a trade we have two younger players with top potential, we will have lots of cap space. If Ottawa is looking to attract high quality free agents (ex Richards), I think we would have a better chance of getting him with a young exciting team that needs a #1 center.
Yeah, or we can bung up our cap full average offensive players making $3M-$4M a piece and we have trouble clearing cap space to afford elite UFA's.

Or more likely is that there are few if any elite UFA's that ever make it to free agency or want to play in Ottawa... and we celebrate the day that we sign Mike Ribeiro to be our 1st line centre.

If a deal like is made, where we break Spezza down into 2nd liners... then the next time time we see a 1st line calibre player will be when we draft him with our own lottery pick. Because that's what happens when you downgrade your offense to crap and your goaltending is already crap = lottery. Then the wonderful part of that is that we have to go through the Daigle's, Bonk's, Niedermayer's, Bonsignore's, Stefan's, etc... before we find another Spezza.

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Old
11-04-2010, 08:03 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Nothing they've ever done suggests they can.



Yeah, or we can bung up our cap full average offensive players making $3M-$4M a piece and we have trouble clearing cap space to afford elite UFA's.

Or more likely is that there are few if any elite UFA's that ever make it to free agency or want to play in Ottawa... and we celebrate the day that we sign Mike Ribeiro to be our 1st line centre.

If a deal like is made, where we break Spezza down into 2nd liners... then the next time time we see a 1st line calibre player will be when we draft him with our own lottery pick. Because that's what happens when you downgrade your offense to crap and your goaltending is already crap = lottery. Then the wonderful part of that is that we have to go through the Daigle's, Bonk's, Niedermayer's, Bonsignore's, Stefan's, etc... before we find another Spezza.
You are acting like I want to trade Spezza away on a Phaneuf deal, I do not want to become the Flames I want to become Chicago.

We are going to have 15m ish in cap space next year maybe more if we trade Spezza. We have a young D and players coming off the books.

I would rather have a lottery pick the next 2 years and have a cup in 3 or 4 year then spend the next 2 years continuing to rent old players(gonchar, Kovalev). We need to stop trying to sign and trade for players as if we are competing for a cup, because we are not, we are competing for a playoff spot.



IMO this is the perfect time to make a move like this.

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Old
11-04-2010, 08:20 AM
  #54
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Since it's usually Spezza to NYR let me explain this. Again.

Spezza to NYR isn't a fit. There is no way the Rangers meet the asking price. There is no way the Sens trade Spezza without good cause.

Now, under the supposition that Spezza lands in the doghouse and the Sens plummet in the standings in, say, 2011-2012 season? Here's where things get murky, because now you've got probable cause to trade Spezza at or around the trade deadline. He might even request it. However, traditionally, superstar talents don't bring back high end talent - they tend to bring in a pile of midrange talent, or a risk/reward high end + a 1st - which won't be good enough for Sens fans to accept, even though it's likely the truth.

If Spezza gets traded, it's probably because a team DOESN'T have a 1st line center and wants one. They'd have to address one of Ottawa's other weaknesses from their respective position of strength. That's how trades work.

In a Rangers example, they might trade Grachev, Hagelin, Kundratek and a 1st. Would it be fair to Sens fans? Probably not. Rangers fans? Possibly. You get that risk/reward talent, a solid 2/3rd liner and a crease clearing *******, plus the pick. It's risk/reward, midrange and a wildcard and it's to be expected of trading a superstar who's fallen out of favor in his hometown. It's not fair - but historically speaking, superstars don't fetch massive hauls. Kovalchuk landed Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier and a 1st and frankly, that's about as big a haul as you get - risk/reward, something steadier, a wildcard and a pick.

The concept of trading Spezza doesn't work out for the Sens. Period. It would be GREAT if they look to blow it up and build around something, but with no real major offensive threats in the Sens system it isn't yet feasible. If the Sens wash out and end up with a Nugent-Hopkins, I'd honestly say that dealing Spezza for some tweener pieces like a Grachev or a Bergfors style player and the "accessories" makes sense - but it's not in the cards just yet.

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Old
11-04-2010, 08:54 AM
  #55
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
You are acting like I want to trade Spezza away on a Phaneuf deal, I do not want to become the Flames I want to become Chicago.
You want to miss the playoffs for a decade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
I would rather have a lottery pick the next 2 years and have a cup in 3 or 4 year
You mean like this?
1993, 1-5th = R.Neidermayer
1994, 1-1st = Ed Jovanovski

Or this?
2001, 1-4th = S.Weiss
2002, 1-3rd = Jay-Bo
2003, 1-3rd = N.Horton
2004, 1-7th = R.Olesz

Or what about this? (Surely this team will win something)
1999, 1-1st = P.Stefan
2000, 1-2nd = D.Heatley
2001, 1-1st = I.Kovalchuk
2002, 1-2nd = K.Lehtonen
2003, 1-8th = B.Coburn
2004, 1-10th = B.Valabik
2005, 1-16th = A.Bouret


Or maybe this one?
2000, 1-4th = R.Klesla
2001, 1-8th = P.Leclaire
2002, 1-1st = R.Nash
2003, 1-4th = N.Zherdev
2004, 1-8th = A.Picard
2005, 1-6th = G.Brule

Nope, this one?
1994, 1-9th = B.Lindros
1995, 1-2nd = W.Redden (B.Berard)
1996, 1-3rd = JP Dumont
1997, 1-4th = R.Luongo
1997, 1-5th = E.Brewer
1998, 1-9th = M.Rupp
1999, 1-5th = T.Connolly
1999, 1-8th = T.Pyatt
1999, 1-10th = B.Mezei
2000, 1-1st = R.Dipietro
2000, 1-5th = R.Torres


Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
We are going to have 15m ish in cap space next year maybe more if we trade Spezza. We have a young D and players coming off the books.

then spend the next 2 years continuing to rent old players(gonchar, Kovalev). We need to stop trying to sign and trade for players as if we are competing for a cup, because we are not, we are competing for a playoff spot.
Yeah, or we could keep Spezza and Alfie... then add an elite player to the team, like a goalie? (Vokoun, Bryzagalov, etc)

Do you really understand how long it would take to replace Alfie, Spezza and an elite goalie through the draft? ... And the odds that we would fail so much that by the time we replaced all 3 of them, they might all be playing for different teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
IMO this is the perfect time to make a move like this.
IMO, you might want to consider how much spending a lot of time on a website that worships prospects affects your perception.

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Old
11-04-2010, 09:28 AM
  #56
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If we trade Spezza, we are also trading away any chance at all of Alfie winning a Cup in Ottawa. Any real Sens fan wants more than anything else for Alfie to win a Cup here.

If we trade Spezza (without getting another young #1 center back), then our most glaring need would be a young #1 center, which is exactly what we already have in Spezza. Just ask the Leafs how hard it is to get a young #1 centerman.

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Old
11-04-2010, 09:38 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
You want to miss the playoffs for a decade?



You mean like this?
1993, 1-5th = R.Neidermayer
1994, 1-1st = Ed Jovanovski

Or this?
2001, 1-4th = S.Weiss
2002, 1-3rd = Jay-Bo
2003, 1-3rd = N.Horton
2004, 1-7th = R.Olesz

Or what about this? (Surely this team will win something)
1999, 1-1st = P.Stefan
2000, 1-2nd = D.Heatley
2001, 1-1st = I.Kovalchuk
2002, 1-2nd = K.Lehtonen
2003, 1-8th = B.Coburn
2004, 1-10th = B.Valabik
2005, 1-16th = A.Bouret


Or maybe this one?
2000, 1-4th = R.Klesla
2001, 1-8th = P.Leclaire
2002, 1-1st = R.Nash
2003, 1-4th = N.Zherdev
2004, 1-8th = A.Picard
2005, 1-6th = G.Brule

Nope, this one?
1994, 1-9th = B.Lindros
1995, 1-2nd = W.Redden (B.Berard)
1996, 1-3rd = JP Dumont
1997, 1-4th = R.Luongo
1997, 1-5th = E.Brewer
1998, 1-9th = M.Rupp
1999, 1-5th = T.Connolly
1999, 1-8th = T.Pyatt
1999, 1-10th = B.Mezei
2000, 1-1st = R.Dipietro
2000, 1-5th = R.Torres




Yeah, or we could keep Spezza and Alfie... then add an elite player to the team, like a goalie? (Vokoun, Bryzagalov, etc)

Do you really understand how long it would take to replace Alfie, Spezza and an elite goalie through the draft? ... And the odds that we would fail so much that by the time we replaced all 3 of them, they might all be playing for different teams.



IMO, you might want to consider how much spending a lot of time on a website that worships prospects affects your perception.
I <3 trentmccleary

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Old
11-04-2010, 11:53 AM
  #58
The Waffler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
You want to miss the playoffs for a decade?



You mean like this?
1993, 1-5th = R.Neidermayer
1994, 1-1st = Ed Jovanovski

Or this?
2001, 1-4th = S.Weiss
2002, 1-3rd = Jay-Bo
2003, 1-3rd = N.Horton
2004, 1-7th = R.Olesz

Or what about this? (Surely this team will win something)
1999, 1-1st = P.Stefan
2000, 1-2nd = D.Heatley
2001, 1-1st = I.Kovalchuk
2002, 1-2nd = K.Lehtonen
2003, 1-8th = B.Coburn
2004, 1-10th = B.Valabik
2005, 1-16th = A.Bouret


Or maybe this one?
2000, 1-4th = R.Klesla
2001, 1-8th = P.Leclaire
2002, 1-1st = R.Nash
2003, 1-4th = N.Zherdev
2004, 1-8th = A.Picard
2005, 1-6th = G.Brule

Nope, this one?
1994, 1-9th = B.Lindros
1995, 1-2nd = W.Redden (B.Berard)
1996, 1-3rd = JP Dumont
1997, 1-4th = R.Luongo
1997, 1-5th = E.Brewer
1998, 1-9th = M.Rupp
1999, 1-5th = T.Connolly
1999, 1-8th = T.Pyatt
1999, 1-10th = B.Mezei
2000, 1-1st = R.Dipietro
2000, 1-5th = R.Torres




Yeah, or we could keep Spezza and Alfie... then add an elite player to the team, like a goalie? (Vokoun, Bryzagalov, etc)

Do you really understand how long it would take to replace Alfie, Spezza and an elite goalie through the draft? ... And the odds that we would fail so much that by the time we replaced all 3 of them, they might all be playing for different teams.



IMO, you might want to consider how much spending a lot of time on a website that worships prospects affects your perception.

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Old
11-04-2010, 12:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
You want to miss the playoffs for a decade?



You mean like this?
1993, 1-5th = R.Neidermayer
1994, 1-1st = Ed Jovanovski

Or this?
2001, 1-4th = S.Weiss
2002, 1-3rd = Jay-Bo
2003, 1-3rd = N.Horton
2004, 1-7th = R.Olesz

Or what about this? (Surely this team will win something)
1999, 1-1st = P.Stefan
2000, 1-2nd = D.Heatley
2001, 1-1st = I.Kovalchuk
2002, 1-2nd = K.Lehtonen
2003, 1-8th = B.Coburn
2004, 1-10th = B.Valabik
2005, 1-16th = A.Bouret


Or maybe this one?
2000, 1-4th = R.Klesla
2001, 1-8th = P.Leclaire
2002, 1-1st = R.Nash
2003, 1-4th = N.Zherdev
2004, 1-8th = A.Picard
2005, 1-6th = G.Brule

Nope, this one?
1994, 1-9th = B.Lindros
1995, 1-2nd = W.Redden (B.Berard)
1996, 1-3rd = JP Dumont
1997, 1-4th = R.Luongo
1997, 1-5th = E.Brewer
1998, 1-9th = M.Rupp
1999, 1-5th = T.Connolly
1999, 1-8th = T.Pyatt
1999, 1-10th = B.Mezei
2000, 1-1st = R.Dipietro
2000, 1-5th = R.Torres




Yeah, or we could keep Spezza and Alfie... then add an elite player to the team, like a goalie? (Vokoun, Bryzagalov, etc)

Do you really understand how long it would take to replace Alfie, Spezza and an elite goalie through the draft? ... And the odds that we would fail so much that by the time we replaced all 3 of them, they might all be playing for different teams.



IMO, you might want to consider how much spending a lot of time on a website that worships prospects affects your perception.
I think this is the only appropriate time in HFBoards history to say /thread.

/thread.

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Old
11-04-2010, 01:12 PM
  #60
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id do penner & gags for spezza

think it would make both teams better.

oilers get their # 1 center

ottawa gets there potential # 1 C plus a first line 30 goal scorer

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Old
11-04-2010, 01:45 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsoilfan View Post
id do penner & gags for spezza

think it would make both teams better.

oilers get their # 1 center

ottawa gets there potential # 1 C plus a first line 30 goal scorer
no thanks.



and i will also add that anyone wondering what Ottawa needs to be doing only has to read trentcmleary's posts in this and other threads.

i agree completely.

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Old
11-04-2010, 02:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
If we trade Spezza, we are also trading away any chance at all of Alfie winning a Cup in Ottawa. Any real Sens fan wants more than anything else for Alfie to win a Cup here.

If we trade Spezza (without getting another young #1 center back), then our most glaring need would be a young #1 center, which is exactly what we already have in Spezza. Just ask the Leafs how hard it is to get a young #1 centerman.
This is a fair assessment. Toronto has been nowhere near the same since Sundin moved on.

I don't think Sens fans realize how valuable Speeza truly is. It is like night and day when Speeza is in the lineup or out of the lineup. Unfortunately, he can't manage to stay healthy for an extended period of time.

If he did manage to stay healthy people would be talking about him in the same breath as a H. Sedin or Kopitar.

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Old
11-04-2010, 02:29 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
If we trade Spezza, we are also trading away any chance at all of Alfie winning a Cup in Ottawa. Any real Sens fan wants more than anything else for Alfie to win a Cup here.

If we trade Spezza (without getting another young #1 center back), then our most glaring need would be a young #1 center, which is exactly what we already have in Spezza. Just ask the Leafs how hard it is to get a young #1 centerman.
In what way do you think the Sens have a chance to win the cup(I hope I'm wrong). Our first line has 3 players (1st just off his 3rd major knee surgery, 2nd is going to be 38, 3rd has nagging back pain and groin). We have no young top forward prospects to speak of, some second line potential but no first. Look in way am I saying we should trade Spezza for nothing, if that is all that is offered then we have to continue trying to build a team around him, but to say say flat out don't trade him is irresponsible.

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11-04-2010, 02:33 PM
  #64
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And ask Leaf fans how has it been trading your future for the present for the last 10 years trying to win a cup. It would'nt be so bad but them like us now are nowhere near having a cup contender

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11-04-2010, 02:49 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsoilfan View Post
id do penner & gags for spezza

think it would make both teams better.

oilers get their # 1 center

ottawa gets there potential # 1 C plus a first line 30 goal scorer
Thats great, I'm sure they would. The Sens wouldn't. If you'd read any of the threads about what the Sens needs are, you wouldn't have wasted all of our time posting that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
This is a fair assessment. Toronto has been nowhere near the same since Sundin moved on.

I don't think Sens fans realize how valuable Speeza truly is. It is like night and day when Speeza is in the lineup or out of the lineup. Unfortunately, he can't manage to stay healthy for an extended period of time.

If he did manage to stay healthy people would be talking about him in the same breath as a H. Sedin or Kopitar.
This. Unfortunately, not enough people (Sens fans or otherwise) realize just how good he really is.

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11-04-2010, 02:52 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
In what way do you think the Sens have a chance to win the cup(I hope I'm wrong). Our first line has 3 players (1st just off his 3rd major knee surgery, 2nd is going to be 38, 3rd has nagging back pain and groin). We have no young top forward prospects to speak of, some second line potential but no first. Look in way am I saying we should trade Spezza for nothing, if that is all that is offered then we have to continue trying to build a team around him, but to say say flat out don't trade him is irresponsible.
I didn't say that the Sens are a leading Cup contender, but they certainly are a playoff contender, and anything can happen in the playoffs. Just look at last year - the 7th and 8th seeds met in the Eastern final. That, and the fact that our one big offseason change was to add one of the best offensive Dman in the league who has won the Cup, should tell you that the Sens are NOT thinking 'rebuild'.

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Old
11-04-2010, 02:55 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by ErikKarlsson View Post
Why is there always so many Spezza proposals? He is not getting traded.
He'll be traded within 2 years

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Old
11-04-2010, 02:58 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
I didn't say that the Sens are a leading Cup contender, but they certainly are a playoff contender, and anything can happen in the playoffs. Just look at last year - the 7th and 8th seeds met in the Eastern final. That, and the fact that our one big offseason change was to add one of the best offensive Dman in the league who has won the Cup, should tell you that the Sens are NOT thinking 'rebuild'.
That is my point maybe they should be.

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Old
11-04-2010, 02:59 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
And ask Leaf fans how has it been trading your future for the present for the last 10 years trying to win a cup. It would'nt be so bad but them like us now are nowhere near having a cup contender
We aren't like Toronto.
1) From 1999 to 2007, nine 1st round picks... and Toronto has Kris Versteeg to show for them today.
Ottawa has Rundblad, Cowen, Karlsson, O'Brien, Foligno, B.Lee, F.Kuba and C.Campoli to show for our last 9 1st rounders alone.

2) Pre-lockout, the Leafs counted heavily on two elite players (Belfour & Sundin). They were 40 & 34 in 2005-06.
Alfie is currently 37 and still very productive, while Spezza is 27 and signed long term.

3) When Belfour declined, JFJ blew two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder while failing miserably in attempting to replace him.
If in a few seasons from now, our GM begins eating paint chips and tries to replace Alfie with Samsonov & Cogliano whilst giving up two 1sts and a 2nd... I may then agree to your rebuilding strategy.

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Old
11-04-2010, 03:06 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
Just looking for some offers for Spezza. There may be some differences on what he is worth, but he is the #1 center that may take some teams over the top.

What I want in return for Spezza:

A young potential #1 center

Blue chip forward prospect or a very good prospect + a pick
???????????


And why would any team do that ??????????????

It's like asking i offer Smyth for a young #1 left wing or
Handzus for a young #2 Center

The salary cap days you take your young and cheap blue chip
over all of the other older star players of the league.

12 years of very good service >>>>> 2 years of elite service

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Old
11-04-2010, 03:18 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
We aren't like Toronto.
1) From 1999 to 2007, nine 1st round picks... and Toronto has Kris Versteeg to show for them today.
Ottawa has Rundblad, Cowen, Karlsson, O'Brien, Foligno, B.Lee, F.Kuba and C.Campoli to show for our last 9 1st rounders alone.

2) Pre-lockout, the Leafs counted heavily on two elite players (Belfour & Sundin). They were 40 & 34 in 2005-06.
Alfie is currently 37 and still very productive, while Spezza is 27 and signed long term.

3) When Belfour declined, JFJ blew two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder while failing miserably in attempting to replace him.
If in a few seasons from now, our GM begins eating paint chips and tries to replace Alfie with Samsonov & Cogliano whilst giving up two 1sts and a 2nd... I may then agree to your rebuilding strategy.
Yeah that's some good offencive talent we have there. So what do you think we should do?

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11-04-2010, 03:26 PM
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Irving Zisman
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How about a nice, shiny Ryan Miller and a brand New Tim Connolly!

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11-04-2010, 03:37 PM
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Mafoofoo
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Dany Heatley for Jason Spezza




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11-04-2010, 03:40 PM
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Stassino
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Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
If Ottawa gets the chance to trade Spezza for two young 2nd line players who have the potential to become first liners then we have to do it. If we built a young team with lots of promise it will be much easier to attract high end free agents.

Sure its a risky proposal, but where are we now, a team that can finish anywhere between 5-12 place in the eastern conference with our best player only having a couple of years left.

If we make a trade we have two younger players with top potential, we will have lots of cap space. If Ottawa is looking to attract high quality free agents (ex Richards), I think we would have a better chance of getting him with a young exciting team that needs a #1 center.
Everything you said brings up back to needing Jason Spezza..

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11-04-2010, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
???????????


And why would any team do that ??????????????

It's like asking i offer Smyth for a young #1 left wing or
Handzus for a young #2 Center

The salary cap days you take your young and cheap blue chip
over all of the other older star players of the league.

12 years of very good service >>>>> 2 years of elite service
1st- Spezza has 5 years left on his deal and he is 27 (2 Years??)

2nd- He would be very marketable to a team (Columbus, St. Louis, NY etc)

3rd- He would be one of the few #1 centers availiable

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