The biggest gripe on my behalf about rushing prospects is not that they get a 5-25 game cup of coffee in the NHL like we've seen with the likes of Katic, Ullstrom, Ness, Cizikas, Rakhshani and a few others. It also isn't about changing assets and then letting kids play out the stretch of a playoffless season. That's just a form of 'auditioning'.
It's the giving away of full time jobs to kids who
A) Haven't necessarily earned them
B) Clearly aren't ready to contribute
C) Do not enhance the team's chances for success
Not only do I think that both Okposo and Martin should have been given more time on the farm to further develop their pro and offensive games, but for me, no less than Bailey and Niederreiter were put into detrimental situations and have seen their development stunted, to put it kindly. They represent criteria points A-C. It's simply irresponsible!
The only guys who warranted a full-time job here with less than 30 games of minor league experience are JT and Hamonic.
The saddest thing about particularly Bailey and Niederreiter is that they were robbed of a very healthy track of success-oriented progress in order to be overwhelmed and used sparsely at the NHL level while primarily seeing their contracts either help against the cap or simply help prevent management from having to add another 500-1000 K to sign an actual NHLer who could help more now.
It's not about whether they CAN actually survive at the NHL level this early. It's been sloppy negligence to let them do so instead of taking the proper route here - one that would surely have taught both a lot about succeeding while honing their skills.
Hopefully, they do some amount of right with Niederreiter, send him back to Portland, then let him play the playoffs there and in BPort (if temporaly possible) and then even take part in the WC for Switzerland.
I have been studying the draft since 08, the first draft Snow had a 1st round pick in, and we all know who we actually picked. I make a composite rankings based on the rankings of about 6 reputable scouting guides each year. It's still early to make any kinds of comparisons, but if Snow were to pick the consensus BPA in each draft we would've walked away with the following players (in parenthesis are the composite rankings):
2008: Cody Hodgson (#8)
2009: John Tavares (#1), Dimitri Kulikov (#9)
2010: Cam Fowler (#4), Jon Merill (#20)
2011: Sean Couturier (#4)
Not saying that our future is any more or less bleak based on this. Just interesting to think about if things would be better/worse drafting BPA based on consensus rankings.
Instead the following picks were made:
2008: Josh Bailey (#10)
2009: John Tavares (#1), Calvin de Haan (#25)
2010: Nino Neiderreiter (#7), Brock Nelson (#32)
2011: Ryan Strome (#7)
The only guys who warranted a full-time job here with less than 30 games of minor league experience are JT and Hamonic.
Actually, Hamonic was rushed, too - it's just that he has risen to that challenge.
Every team "rushes" players when the roster provides them that opportunity or necessity. Some teams are deep enough that their prospects stay down much longer, but it can be argued that that's not healthy for the players, either.
It's easy to say that players' development is being hurt, but you don't know how this experience is going to pay off for them or not in the future, and frankly we could still be wondering what Hamonic would become if he were groomed the way you seem to think all prospects should be. He'd still be in Bridgeport had it not been for the absurd number of injuries our defense and Bridgeport's defense suffered last season.
Tavares met the challenge. Hamonic met the challenge. Okposo, pre-injury, met the challenge. Bailey, Nino and to a lesser degree Martin are learning on the job, but given the alternatives, I am fine with that, so long as they improve. And if they don't then at some point they (Garth, Charles) need to change their stance on where these players are best served. It's not a one-way ticket these players have, and we have plently of other prospects who are playing at the lower levels who can be given the opportunity to rise to the challenge as well.
I have been studying the draft since 08, the first draft Snow had a 1st round pick in, and we all know who we actually picked. I make a composite rankings based on the rankings of about 6 reputable scouting guides each year. It's still early to make any kinds of comparisons, but if Snow were to pick the consensus BPA in each draft we would've walked away with the following players (in parenthesis are the composite rankings):
2008: Cody Hodgson (#8)
2009: John Tavares (#1), Dimitri Kulikov (#9)
2010: Cam Fowler (#4), Jon Merill (#20)
2011: Sean Couturier (#4)
Not saying that our future is any more or less bleak based on this. Just interesting to think about if things would be better/worse drafting BPA based on consensus rankings.
Instead the following picks were made:
2008: Josh Bailey (#10)
2009: John Tavares (#1), Calvin de Haan (#25)
2010: Nino Neiderreiter (#7), Brock Nelson (#32)
2011: Ryan Strome (#7)
Um...Bailey was drafted #9, de Haan #12, Nino #5, Nelson #30, and Strome #5
I have been studying the draft since 08, the first draft Snow had a 1st round pick in, and we all know who we actually picked. I make a composite rankings based on the rankings of about 6 reputable scouting guides each year. It's still early to make any kinds of comparisons, but if Snow were to pick the consensus BPA in each draft we would've walked away with the following players (in parenthesis are the composite rankings):
2008: Cody Hodgson (#8)
2009: John Tavares (#1), Dimitri Kulikov (#9)
2010: Cam Fowler (#4), Jon Merill (#20)
2011: Sean Couturier (#4)
Not saying that our future is any more or less bleak based on this. Just interesting to think about if things would be better/worse drafting BPA based on consensus rankings.
Instead the following picks were made:
2008: Josh Bailey (#10)
2009: John Tavares (#1), Calvin de Haan (#25)
2010: Nino Neiderreiter (#7), Brock Nelson (#32)
2011: Ryan Strome (#7)
Interesting.
But is the implication that anyone can draft simply by using the scouting services consensus picks? Even the scouting services never get it "right" with rarely the best players being selected in descending order. So this is pretty much a snap shot based on one teams's situation and it would apply to any other team as well, just as arbitrarily.
And I'm not suggesting you are implying anything besides that, simply a point of interest.
The larger point is that there's no great evidence of "Snow's great drafting", at least not in the first few rounds. The 2008 draft has some nice players though, from the later rounds.
Plus, there are certain players that rank higher on all teams' lists and obviously Niederreiter was higher on the NYI list that some other prospects, same for Bailey.
Now, where does Filatov go, everyone was wrong about him
And a bunch more were wrong about Skinner. And of course there are examples of this in every draft year.
Drafting is so important, but no more important than player development and a big part of that is surrounding players with an environment that breeds success. Snow, Wang, whomever else - this organization hasn't made it easy for ANYONE to develop properly. I just think the ones who thrived are simply those who happened to overcome the obstacles, rather than learn from the process.
But is the implication that anyone can draft simply by using the scouting services consensus picks? Even the scouting services never get it "right" with rarely the best players being selected in descending order. So this is pretty much a snap shot based on one teams's situation and it would apply to any other team as well, just as arbitrarily.
And I'm not suggesting you are implying anything besides that, simply a point of interest.
The larger point is that there's no great evidence of "Snow's great drafting", at least not in the first few rounds. The 2008 draft has some nice players though, from the later rounds.
Plus, there are certain players that rank higher on all teams' lists and obviously Niederreiter was higher on the NYI list that some other prospects, same for Bailey.
Now, where does Filatov go, everyone was wrong about him
And a bunch more were wrong about Skinner. And of course there are examples of this in every draft year.
Drafting is so important, but no more important than player development and a big part of that is surrounding players with an environment that breeds success. Snow, Wang, whomever else - this organization hasn't made it easy for ANYONE to develop properly. I just think the ones who thrived are simply those who happened to overcome the obstacles, rather than learn from the process.
This is key. Player development has been a little strange. The Isles need to figure this out.
Capuano Effect?
Under Capuano, Tavares, Hamonic, Parenteau, and Moulson have all progressed in their games and production. Bailey, Okposo, Neiderreiter, and Grabner have all either regressed or have failed to progress this year. Is the lack of progression due to poor coaching? Maybe there's an element of that, it's hard to know. What is clear is that it's unacceptable for a coach to play a 19 year old with high offensive upside with ECHLers Pandolfo and Reasoner. IMO, any coach that feels that this is an acceptable way to bring along a top prospect is not fit to coach in this league.
Then there's an issue of rushing a prospect. There are plenty of people who think that Nino needed more time. If you look at his numbers, especially in the playoffs (17-26-43 in 34 WHL playoff games) is a pretty good predictor of NHL readiness. Combine that with his size, and you have a player that's ready to play on a bottom 6 line. Unfortunately, when you play with Pandolfo/Reasoner all year (combined 7 pts in 91 games), your production will be pitiful.
I do not think that he was rush, I just think he was mishandled on the team. The blame has to be shared between Snow and Capuano. Let's just hope that this season has not been a hindrance to his development. A lot of the onus goes to the prospect as well. He can take this experience and work as hard as JT in the offseason. Lots of prospects have difficult rookie years, it's sometimes up to them to bounce back. Let's see what Nino has in terms of character.
Actually, Hamonic was rushed, too - it's just that he has risen to that challenge.
Every team "rushes" players when the roster provides them that opportunity or necessity. Some teams are deep enough that their prospects stay down much longer, but it can be argued that that's not healthy for the players, either.
It's easy to say that players' development is being hurt, but you don't know how this experience is going to pay off for them or not in the future, and frankly we could still be wondering what Hamonic would become if he were groomed the way you seem to think all prospects should be. He'd still be in Bridgeport had it not been for the absurd number of injuries our defense and Bridgeport's defense suffered last season.
Tavares met the challenge. Hamonic met the challenge. Okposo, pre-injury, met the challenge. Bailey, Nino and to a lesser degree Martin are learning on the job, but given the alternatives, I am fine with that, so long as they improve. And if they don't then at some point they (Garth, Charles) need to change their stance on where these players are best served. It's not a one-way ticket these players have, and we have plently of other prospects who are playing at the lower levels who can be given the opportunity to rise to the challenge as well.
I get your point-but each prospect should be developed independately and specifically for them. Also I think mentioning Tavares because he's a clear exception to the rule. Not many players are NHL-ready right away like Tavares was...it was a no-brainer and they don't get credit for that. There's not one of the other 29 teams that wouldn't have done that.
This is key. Player development has been a little strange. The Isles need to figure this out.
Under Capuano, Tavares, Hamonic, Parenteau, and Moulson have all progressed in their games and production. Bailey, Okposo, Neiderreiter, and Grabner have all either regressed or have failed to progress this year. Is the lack of progression due to poor coaching? Maybe there's an element of that, it's hard to know. What is clear is that it's unacceptable for a coach to play a 19 year old with high offensive upside with ECHLers Pandolfo and Reasoner. IMO, any coach that feels that this is an acceptable way to bring along a top prospect is not fit to coach in this league.
Do NOT blame Capuano for not spoon feeding Nino ice time. Nino has flat put sucked and Capuano is playing him because he has to. Blame Snow for Nino being on the team and blame Capuano for not changing the lines all year. A GM should NEVER give a 19 year old kid who has proved **** a promise that he will be in the NHL for the year. Only our jackass GM would pull crap like that. Snow has no clue how to ice a competitive hockey team.
For all those saying Snow has been great at drafting , it is useless when you rush your best prospects into the league and kill them. He has destroyed Nino and Bailey who were this teams big time prospects. He does not rush the Ullstroms and Cizikas of the system but those guys do not make a lotto team a playoff team. Nino and Bailey should have been guys to help do that.
For all those saying Snow has been great at drafting , it is useless when you rush your best prospects into the league and kill them. He has destroyed Nino and Bailey who were this teams big time prospects. He does not rush the Ullstroms and Cizikas of the system but those guys do not make a lotto team a playoff team. Nino and Bailey should have been guys to help do that.
Thats the whole point, Bailey and El Nino were drafted first round and the others weren't, because of "maturity". Not saying that's right. Snow probably thinks that maturity off the ice (which all our 1st rounders have had showed as 18 year olds) equals maturity on the ice and a way to get through the struggles of a mans (NHL) game as a 18/19 year old. Obviously only for a guy with supreme skills like JT this is true, and even then he struggled. Where as Casey had legal troubles and that forced him into the 4th round and he was able to mature in the OHL. Ullstrom was a special player to me (even back in '08), but him staying in Sweden for two more years, then coming over to Bridgeport last year helped him so much more. Both 4th rounders.
Maybe we should all write to GMG or to whomever is covering the Isles at Newsday and ask that Strome (or any 1st rounder from here on out) is not rushed like Bailey and Nino. Or ask that we trade our 1st rounders for NHL ready players, not only to help the team now, but to avoid the mishandling of similar prospects like these two (??)
Do NOT blame Capuano for not spoon feeding Nino ice time. Nino has flat put sucked and Capuano is playing him because he has to. Blame Snow for Nino being on the team and blame Capuano for not changing the lines all year. A GM should NEVER give a 19 year old kid who has proved **** a promise that he will be in the NHL for the year. Only our jackass GM would pull crap like that. Snow has no clue how to ice a competitive hockey team.
For all those saying Snow has been great at drafting , it is useless when you rush your best prospects into the league and kill them. He has destroyed Nino and Bailey who were this teams big time prospects. He does not rush the Ullstroms and Cizikas of the system but those guys do not make a lotto team a playoff team. Nino and Bailey should have been guys to help do that.
I agree that both players should've stayed in juniors for another year before being brought up. But that's not what I meant by my post. I'm not saying Nino should have been spoon fed ice time. I'm saying that you can't play a top prospect with players barely good enough to be in the ECHL. Sure, it was Snow that signed Reasoner and Pandolfo, but Capuano does not need to play them. In fact, there are far better options at the bridge for 4th line roles. Wasting roster spots drives me crazy. Playing Pandolfo and Reasoner is the ultimate waste of roster spots.
I agree that both players should've stayed in juniors for another year before being brought up. But that's not what I meant by my post. I'm not saying Nino should have been spoon fed ice time. I'm saying that you can't play a top prospect with players barely good enough to be in the ECHL. Sure, it was Snow that signed Reasoner and Pandolfo, but Capuano does not need to play them. In fact, there are far better options at the bridge for 4th line roles. Wasting roster spots drives me crazy. Playing Pandolfo and Reasoner is the ultimate waste of roster spots.
bang. on.
These guys aren't exactly providing mentorship, leadership or playing quality minutes. They put the team at risk when they are on the ice. Their +/- (not usually the best stat) truly reflects how bad they've been on the ice (on both the PLUS and on the MINUS side)
A 4th line that plays against the opponents worst players, rarely plays important minutes, to be so bad 5on5 is embarrassing. They are truly ECHL players.
When Frischmon, Wallace, Collition are an upgrade to your 4th line (a 4th line that carries almost $10MM in cap hit - Rolston-Nino-Pandolfo!), it's likely you have a horrid GM and a lottery team.
Thats the whole point, Bailey and El Nino were drafted first round and the others weren't, because of "maturity". Not saying that's right. Snow probably thinks that maturity off the ice (which all our 1st rounders have had showed as 18 year olds) equals maturity on the ice and a way to get through the struggles of a mans (NHL) game as a 18/19 year old. Obviously only for a guy with supreme skills like JT this is true, and even then he struggled. Where as Casey had legal troubles and that forced him into the 4th round and he was able to mature in the OHL. Ullstrom was a special player to me (even back in '08), but him staying in Sweden for two more years, then coming over to Bridgeport last year helped him so much more. Both 4th rounders.
Maybe we should all write to GMG or to whomever is covering the Isles at Newsday and ask that Strome (or any 1st rounder from here on out) is not rushed like Bailey and Nino. Or ask that we trade our 1st rounders for NHL ready players, not only to help the team now, but to avoid the mishandling of similar prospects like these two (??)
The maturity in this discussion should be fiscal. The reason certain guys are here vs. others is all $. Bailey/Nino have juicy cap hits due to rookie max contracts/bonuses. The others don't. It's also a reason Bailey/Nino start with the team at training camp - more cap float vs. later in the season.
Wang tells Snow he will pay "x" amount CASH vs. the cap floor. Snow is charged with figuring out how to balance the difference between Wang's CASH demands and the NHL's cap floor (cash plus 'i case it happens but never does' cash).
Bailey was supposed to be better earlier (Gordon's public rationale) by playing right out of Junior. How's that looking???
Wang tells Snow he will pay "x" amount CASH vs. the cap floor. Snow is charged with figuring out how to balance the difference between Wang's CASH demands and the NHL's cap floor (cash plus 'i case it happens but never does' cash).
Bailey was supposed to be better earlier (Gordon's public rationale) by playing right out of Junior. How's that looking???
and add to that, some UFAs won't play here, players with NTC won't play here, and it goes on and on.
This is a vicious cycle of perpetual failure with no way out UNTIL you start spending more.
You have to SINK money into some players to make other players want to play here. Until you do that, there's truly no way up/out!
Now, hopefully it's not Scott Gomez you're sinking money into. Maybe you can find a balance (like CHI did with Brian Campbell and Hossa and others who made a lot of money but could play at least)
Snow's got a job that very few capable GMs would even TAKE. Not bad for a back-up goalie who has job security despite continuous on-ice failure...an impossible scenario to replicate in any management position (in and out of sports)
But we can only judge on results - and it's looking like another lottery pick.
Now, do we send Morrow? or Snow? or maybe this year we send TAVARES? or Eric Murphy? or Wang Jr?
I'd send Kate Beckinsale (after I hire her as chief scout) - because WHY NOT!?
Snow's got a job that very few capable GMs would even TAKE. Not bad for a back-up goalie who has job security despite continuous on-ice failure...an impossible scenario to replicate in any management position (in and out of sports)
Here's something that does not get a lot of attention. Yes, this is Snow's first gig w/o any true front office experience, except his on the job learning...However, that is a HUGE thing for him. He has minimal mobility. His entire executive management reputation is hinged on the success of NYI. He probably gets passed on as 'inexperienced' and 'working with wang' as two items that are attached to him.
But, he was not brought along like a Stevie Y, where if he fails, folks will be like 'rookie' learnings. Snow might never get another opportunity outside NYI.
Was there a better coach and GM available yesterday? Yes?
Then Wang is not interested in being the best. That means he's happy selling sh** soup to his paying customers.
I don't pay him one dime ever since 2001. Just sayin. I spend on what I deem as the best I can afford. A business that wants my money then tries to become better and hires the best people and puts out the best product it can. I will spend on it, then.
This is the nature of business.
A business that puts out excellence is rewarded. Hmm.....why don't we have an arena development settled yet?
Wang can go to Hades if he wants my money. You and I have GARTH SNOW, not a competent GM or a ringing attempt at procuring THE BEST GM available.
Folks, we have the worst owner in sports. All sports.
When, since this isn't working, do we get someone BETTER to make it work? When the team folds?
STOP BUYING TICKETS AND SHOW WANG THIS WON'T WORK FOR YOU.
Continue to pay and you blanketly endorse mediocrity in the GM seat, coaching and the Beantown Posse we always sign every summer to not help us win.
Season is cooked!!! I took my mourning shot!!! For those that think Wang/Snow/Cappy are the answer God Bless... This will be my last post until Oct. 2012...
Six years of being GM and here are his achievements:
1 Playoff series appearance
1 Playoff game victory
4 bottom five appearances (soon to be 5)
1 good first round pick (that was a given)
Lack of proper player development
On coach #3 now
When will people on this board stop calling people "chicken littles"? Chicken little though the sky was falling-for the Isles it about to hit after 2015. Not seeing that is naive.
The maturity in this discussion should be fiscal. The reason certain guys are here vs. others is all $. Bailey/Nino have juicy cap hits due to rookie max contracts/bonuses. The others don't. It's also a reason Bailey/Nino start with the team at training camp - more cap float vs. later in the season.
Wang tells Snow he will pay "x" amount CASH vs. the cap floor. Snow is charged with figuring out how to balance the difference between Wang's CASH demands and the NHL's cap floor (cash plus 'i case it happens but never does' cash).
See this is the thing. I finally thought this up the other day. Let me put it into context with everyone's rationale here.
People think that Wang does not want to spend money. Wang spent on Peca and agreed to get Yashin and his crazy contract demands. He agreed to go get Smyth as a good faith thing to the locker room back then (Wangs words, not Peter Nut's words). He got Erhoff knowing full well that Cristian Erhoff might have crazy contract demands because last year there wasnt a lot of FA dmen available in the NHL. They had an amount that they wouldnt go above.
Should they have overpaid Erhoff because supply was scarce?
Maybe, but I think no.
Here is Snows fault in this. Snow came up with the idea that only character guys in the room are needed (or mostly character guys, or he and the committee came up with back in the day). He only targeted Erhoff and he had no backup plan if Erhoff didnt sign.Thats Snowlan's fault. He was then rushed to get anyone, and got Rolston to make it look like we needed elderly vets on this team to mentor the "kids". He knew we needed a good (not over the hill) dman or TWO to get this team to the promised land of the playoffs. But Snow had no one else in mind. There had to be another "character" guy that we could have traded for. Snows fault.
(This is also why I was one of the few posters here last Fall that knew we needed another dman, not just because we already had JT and 2 seasons of Moulson, etc), but we need more than Mac, Ham and Streitshooter on d.
It is just easier to do the cap float with the kiddies for Snow to cover his *ss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzkriegs
Bailey was supposed to be better earlier (Gordon's public rationale) by playing right out of Junior. How's that looking???
Hell I agree.........It was my point that Wang, Snow, the committee and even Gordon and now Fred Flinstone believe(or believed at a point in the case of Gordon) that "if we draft a character kid in the 1st round, they will have the stones/balls/cajone" to get through a NHL season as a 18 year old".
That is their logic that character = success now or later. That even if that 18 year sucks it up in his first or even second season that he will bounce back, because of his character,
This is not MY theory, it is what I believe that they believe to be true and what their actions (well mostly Snow's) mean from all the drafts since the rebuild at the end of the 07-08 season.
Sink money into the right guys is the way Snow and Wang wants it. I don't know if I agree at all, anymore.
It's time the media starts to expose Snow and state the obvious.
It seems there are no media journalists that want to upset the GM for fear of being banned.
Get some media journalist to ask if it's Wang or Snow who should be held responsible for this teams failure it's about time that someone actually had the balls to ask who is really responsible and maybe then will Snow be forced to accept this mess or blame Wang. He can't hide behind the rebuild is taking shape after getting another top 5 pick
It's time the media starts to expose Snow and state the obvious.
It seems there are no media journalists that want to upset the GM for fear of being banned.
Get some media journalist to ask if it's Wang or Snow who should be held responsible for this teams failure it's about time that someone actually had the balls to ask who is really responsible and maybe then will Snow be forced to accept this mess or blame Wang. He can't hide behind the rebuild is taking shape after getting another top 5 pick
The problem is our team is so minor league that we have 2-3 people who cover the team on a daily basis. The only hope in getting the media to ask real questions is if a national guy does it. The problem is no national media gives a flying crap about the Isles. The thing we fans can do is chant Snow Must Go loud and proud every game.
I just can not stand fans blaming Capuano for the team failing this season. The roster is terrible and that comes from the top. Another coach may have gotten us an extra 4-6 points but when a 1/3 of the team belongs in the AHL a coach can only do so much. With saying that I am not a fan of Cap but he should not be the scapegoat
It's time the media starts to expose Snow and state the obvious.
It seems there are no media journalists that want to upset the GM for fear of being banned.
Get some media journalist to ask if it's Wang or Snow who should be held responsible for this teams failure it's about time that someone actually had the balls to ask who is really responsible and maybe then will Snow be forced to accept this mess or blame Wang. He can't hide behind the rebuild is taking shape after getting another top 5 pick
I've been calling for this for the last 3+ years on several message boards including this one. Won't rehash what responses I received.
We all deserve better no matter how long it took some to realize BOTH of those clowns are the problem.
Season is cooked!!! I took my mourning shot!!! For those that think Wang/Snow/Cappy are the answer God Bless... This will be my last post until Oct. 2012...
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