Of course those 2 guys do not get you a top 4 dman. The amount of money due to them is what OlTime was saying I think. Hunter had negative trade value but Comeau definitely had some type of value going into the season.
Comeau was a 24 goal guy on an upward projection making 2.5 million. The Isles could have got something of value. It was terrible asset management by Snow, even when we waived him it was pointless at the time. No one was out playing him or taking the roster away from him despite his poor play. Just another classic what the hell type of move by Snow, very similar to giving Wiz away for peanuts. I know both moves were $$ dumps but we got zero value back
The most we were going to get for Comeau was a draft pick or two. Then people would complain about not getting anything in return.
A draft pick is still better than nothing, We did get nothing in return for a guy we developed for like 7 years.
You don't know that he didn't try to get something and was rebuffed. So, not getting any interest, he thought he might be able to sneak a guy with no points and a big contract into the minors to sort things out.
Regardless, it was hardly a cardinal sin and further shows there was no way Comeau and Hunter were being traded for a top-4 D.
And I repeat my point that they don't grow on trees and saying "we could have spent their 4.5M on a top-4 D instead" is pure fantasy. It doesn't matter if you have the money to spend if there isn't anything there to be bought with it. The NHL simply doesn't work like that. It's a serious logic fault to claim it does.
You don't know that he didn't try to get something and was rebuffed. So, not getting any interest, he thought he might be able to sneak a guy with no points and a big contract into the minors to sort things out.
Regardless, it was hardly a cardinal sin and further shows there was no way Comeau and Hunter were being traded for a top-4 D.
And I repeat my point that they don't grow on trees and saying "we could have spent their 4.5M on a top-4 D instead" is pure fantasy. It doesn't matter if you have the money to spend if there isn't anything there to be bought with it. The NHL simply doesn't work like that. It's a serious logic fault to claim it does.
No way Comeau would clear, we all knew that. It was a $$ move by our cheap owner, our GM was too incompetent to get anything done while Comeau had value.
As for getting a top 4 dman, we have no clue what really may be available. We could have grabbed Lilies for a 2nd and he is a competent 2nd pairing dman, top 4 dman are out there you just need to be willing to make a deal to get one. A package of Comeau and a 2nd or Comeau and Lee or Comeau and X probably could have gotten us a 2nd pair dman during the summer. Snow took a flyer on Wiz, dealt him for nothing and has not done anything to address the D since.
No way Comeau would clear, we all knew that. It was a $$ move by our cheap owner, our GM was too incompetent to get anything done while Comeau had value.
As for getting a top 4 dman, we have no clue what really may be available. We could have grabbed Lilies for a 2nd and he is a competent 2nd pairing dman, top 4 dman are out there you just need to be willing to make a deal to get one. A package of Comeau and a 2nd or Comeau and Lee or Comeau and X probably could have gotten us a 2nd pair dman during the summer. Snow took a flyer on Wiz, dealt him for nothing and has not done anything to address the D since.
I do have to agree that while Comeau wasn't going to get you much of any value at the point he was waived, if we we're willing to dump him so quikly into the season he should have been moved durring the off season while he was still coming off a 20+ goal year. That was a case of poor assest management. Still, even coming off of last seasons goal total, I don't think you would have gotten any thing good for him, but you would have at least gotten something.
And as for Lilies, he was an impending UFA. We would have given up a 2nd round pick for a guy who could very well have walked away after we had another missed playoff season. Then we would have less assests going forward. I'm all for trading picks/prospects/any one not JT or Hamonic really to get a top Dman. But if were doing it via trade I want the player coming back to have a few years left on their deal so they're stuck here and can't bolt. I understand he did re-sign with the Leafs, but in no way does that mean he'd done the same here. He re-signed there while the Leafs were 10 points up and playing well. Who knows, but that probably wouldn't have happened here.
I don't believe walling oneself off of the trade world is a good tactic for building a good team, admittedly. The point I made melts like an ice cube once the assumption that the Isles' don't have enough talent in the lower leagues to make a good deal for NHL-level talent fizzles. Every season different players go on hot streaks at the least impactful times (KO & Bailey are the big ones this year), and there are enough holes to where I find it easy to come to the conclusion that one or two players are going to change the culture here. Hell, even John Tavares isn't capable of that just yet.
For me it was about the design of Snow's build. Take a pick he pretty much wasted in Ness. The guy is too small. Sure, he might seriously defy the odds, but the odds are greatly against it. Seeing him last season on his call-up I am even more convinced he will never be the next Rafalski which had to be what they were shooting for. Translate that to the way most of Snow's picks until last year were nothing "physical." Go back to that round and look at the bodies that were available, least of all Stepan.
You also mention culture - hiring a real leader would help. We don't have one though I think one will eventually emerge. problem is we need one, desperately, now, and I am sorry, but Mark Kittycat Streit is obviously not it. How do you build a young club and neglect that?
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It's a painfully long and brutally Darwinian process that I don't always agree with, but I can see some logic behind letting natural leaders revealing themselves and the players who can thrive & persevere rising to the top....although it is kind of like watching rioters rushing a fence at times - much of the 1st wave gets trampled by the 5 behind it.
I agree, and that is a brilliant analogy. I'd like them to throw two to three pieces under the bus for a good youngish defenseman with top four potential who won't need the next 7 years like deHaan and the rest will. We need this piece last year.
In general I'm like another poster who said the issues are 70% Wang - 30% Snow. I used to think it was 100% Wang 2 years ago but the excuses some still cling to in defending him are wearing thin. The longer Snow fails to fix the biggest hole on this club at the blueline via trade the more that % increases towards 50/50.
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Thanks for keeping a conversation about questioning the regime totally civil and very well-informed.
Thanks, and same here.
Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 04-13-2012 at 05:26 PM.
I'm curious as to how long it will be before Snow is treated like Milbury. Snow is worse than Milbury was (yes I went there). Milbury also had very cheap owners-and a more unstable ownership. If you compare Milbury's performance post-Wang to Snow's performance-one thing becomes clear. 3 playoff appearances, competent head coaches (for the most part), and they weren't a bottom-feeder for 5 straight years. Yes I know Milbury's history with the team pre-Wang, but quite frankly Snow's led this team to absolutely nothing. He inherited a playoff team, a competent head coach, a full building....and 5 years later we're still in the basement.
Wake up people. Yes Wang's a problem-but he's not going anywhere. Get over it. The next person on the totem pole is Snow-and he must go. ASAP.
edit: And we still have people complaining about Yashin's contract, when DP's is even worse. You can't hold MM to Yashin's contract, and not Snow to DP's.
You DO know that Hunter's salary (~$2M) was spread over two years, not one, so Snow would have had $3M more to spend this year with Hunter not dealt. Rolston meant a worse player ate $3M more money.
BTW, could they have, theoretically, dealt Hunter and Comeau for a $4-5M top line defenseman? Same money spent this year if we stop and think about it.
He'd have to be from New England, though.
In a fantasy, yes Hunter and Comeau were worth a top 4. In this reality. The one we live in right now. The actual world. HELL no! Hunter for Rolston was crap for crap. All of you that argue that Rolston was a bad trade think about this. We were actually able to trade Rolston, Hunter hasn't gone anywhere. He's still worthless....
Any GM or hockey people in the league will tell you that investing the time the Islanders did into Comeau just to let him go on waivers after 17 and 24 goal seasons in a lower line capacity will tell you that this was poor, poor asset management, one way or the other.
Doing it so as to open up a 4th line spot for the unready Niederreiter was just the ridiculousness icing on the cake.
The most we were going to get for Comeau was a draft pick or two. Then people would complain about not getting anything in return.
He probably would've been ripped at the time but more importantly he'd be praised for his foresight today. Losing Comeau for nothing was simply poor asset management.
He probably would've been ripped at the time but more importantly he'd be praised for his foresight today. Losing Comeau for nothing was simply poor asset management.
or, he was an uninspired cancer, and no other team would offer anything for him.
Any GM or hockey people in the league will tell you that investing the time the Islanders did into Comeau just to let him go on waivers after 17 and 24 goal seasons in a lower line capacity will tell you that this was poor, poor asset management, one way or the other.
Doing it so as to open up a 4th line spot for the unready Niederreiter was just the ridiculousness icing on the cake.
That's the part that kills me. I am not all that moved by the loss of Comeau, but when you look at what they back filled with you just have to shake your head and say, "What the fig are you idiots doing?"
I don't think last summer could have been any worse in terms of not meeting a single goal that Snow needed too. And this year the very same holes exist, and Garf comes out telling us not to look for any help. Here's hoping some other GM approaches him with our solution because it sounds like he's all out of ideas.
or, he was an uninspired cancer, and no other team would offer anything for him.
anyone know for sure?
No one is arguing that Garth could have gotten something when he waived him. However, he most definitely could have gotten something for him in the off-season after he was coming off a 24 goal season. This is why GM's are paid the big bucks - they're supposed to know when to sell and buy.
In a fantasy, yes Hunter and Comeau were worth a top 4. In this reality. The one we live in right now. The actual world. HELL no! Hunter for Rolston was crap for crap. All of you that argue that Rolston was a bad trade think about this. We were actually able to trade Rolston, Hunter hasn't gone anywhere. He's still worthless....
Hunter was a warrior for his club, can't wait to see how the board treats Martin in 3 seasons when he becomes "worthless".
No one is arguing that Garth could have gotten something when he waived him. However, he most definitely could have gotten something for him in the off-season after he was coming off a 24 goal season. This is why GM's are paid the big bucks - they're supposed to know when to sell and buy.
Its easy to say that after everything happens. Would you trade a player that is coming off 17 and 24 goal seasons and is supposed to be part of the teams young core? I don't think so. I doubt people would be happy to see the Isles trade him in the offseason. You don't give up a player that just came off a career hign in goals and points. I don't think anyone expected Comeau to go from 46 points to 0.
Its easy to say that after everything happens. Would you trade a player that is coming off 17 and 24 goal seasons and is supposed to be part of the teams young core? I don't think so. I doubt people would be happy to see the Isles trade him in the offseason. You don't give up a player that just came off a career hign in goals and points. I don't think anyone expected Comeau to go from 46 points to 0.
You're right that nobody expected Comeau to completely fall apart, but you're wrong that teams don't give up on players that are supposed to be part of their core. Look at Kessel, Richards, Schenn, Byfuglien, Ladd, Neal -- good players get moved all the time in the NHL.
Comeau was a secondary part of the core of a team that finished with like 70 points. If you aren't willing to move a guy like him, then how on earth are you expecting to improve?
You're right that nobody expected Comeau to completely fall apart, but you're wrong that teams don't give up on players that are supposed to be part of their core. Look at Kessel, Richards, Schenn, Byfuglien, Ladd, Neal -- good players get moved all the time in the NHL.
Comeau was a secondary part of the core of a team that finished with like 70 points. If you aren't willing to move a guy like him, then how on earth are you expecting to improve?
Pretty much this. And as stated before gm's are supposed to have the foresight and courage to make some deals even if they are unpopular at the moment. Of course no GM will be perfect but the problem is Garth almost never makes a trade. And when you have resources as limited as the Isles then every deal (or no deal in this case) becomes that much more important.
... We've drafted very well with Snow IMO... so... idk what you're complaining about... Some picks may buck conventional thought, but even his "busts" (Bailey, for example) are playing in the NHL and will be valuable players or trade chips in the future
Hunter was a warrior for his club, can't wait to see how the board treats Martin in 3 seasons when he becomes "worthless".
Hunter was one of my favorite players... but I mean, he was SLLLOOOOOOWWWW to begin with and injuries just compounded the problems.... Martin hits, plays hard and isnt half bad on the offensive side... Martin >> Hunter IMO
I started reading and thought that was a legit letter. I knew Wang didn't write it from the get-go, but thought at least if he authorized it's release...
Sad to see it was only a joke...You know - Like the man himself.
