An owner comes in now making ALL event revenues hockey and concert and so on, essentially owning the arena rights. He makes BIG cable money, has the right to GET THE BEST PEOPLE POSSIBLE to negotiate with the County on post 2015, has a hockey team ready to move up (when allowed to) and can fix this just by removing the one constant constraint - the owner he replaces.
I also think the economy will provide local wealth in the next two years and possibly beyond (as does Wall Street). NY will again be a better place for business Cuomo aside.
I wouldn't worry. The meat of the matter is whether Cholly will ever sell. After that, it's gravy.
I'm not convinced. Attendance is never good here. The arena is still dilapidated. The team is likely still not profitable at a reasonable payroll (note that we are currently not at a reasonable payroll) even with the new revenues. Plus, there are a ton of ownership groups looking to take teams elsewhere, and the Islanders are in the situation least worth protecting.
I'm convinced that this team is going to be gone after 2015.
I'm not convinced. Attendance is never good here. The arena is still dilapidated. The team is likely still not profitable at a reasonable payroll (note that we are currently not at a reasonable payroll) even with the new revenues. Plus, there are a ton of ownership groups looking to take teams elsewhere, and the Islanders are in the situation least worth protecting.
I'm convinced that this team is going to be gone after 2015.
That's a red herring. The arena needs a refurb....just like the Joe Louis arena.
We sell seats when people wish to spend money on the product. 16, 234 seats. People enjoying the game spend more on beer and pretzels and so on. Wang makes ALL that money minus COGS and expenses. Wang makes ALL parking. Wang sells luxury boxes if the place is run better. Revenues are going up, in other words, when the implicit value increases.....and now with that, think of this:
Wang in the three years before he got full revenue lost $12M in 2007, $9M in 2008 and $6M in 2009. Now add in the revenue he gains and the issue becomes profit. And I say profit JUST ON HOCKEY OPS. Does he increase it substantially by hiring a real GM, a real coach of quality and allowing the product to be improved upon and to be more worthy of fan support than this past three years?
People going to concerts and events further improves the profitability of the Islander ownership.......so how illogical is it really to imagine a local buyer in the New York area to come forward with money considering they would get the team and cable deal and all the goodies? Think someone still thinks they're better off in Kansas?
If the team had this going for them in 1999, there are more people biting than Gutkowski and D'Amato's buddy is all I'm saying.
pay attention to revenue drops. Also remember the Isles revenues omit the take SMG and Nassau County had, and the Forbes report coming out this month will hopefully show the increased revenue stake as this is the first one AFTER the deal Wang made. One can ask whether the owner spends enough or wisely enough to cause his own problems.
Last edited by OlTimeHockey: 11-07-2010 at 02:46 PM.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I can't agree with the OP.(and I should have read the entire post!)
Yes, this team sucks, it has sucked for a long time. Well know that, I just don't think Snow's head is the one we should be calling for. Sadly, the guy's head we should be calling for is that of the owner.
Snow hasn't done anything, but I think his hands are tied regardless of what Wang says he isn't going to spend any money until he gets want he wants and that is the Lighthouse.
I don't think getting rid of Snow will change anything at all, I firmly believe Snow is a puppet for Wang.
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R.I.P. Uncle John.... I love you!
While Snow's hands seem to certainly be tied with Wang's budget constraints, and thus you can't just point the finger at him and say the lack of results are completely his fault, I don't think it's accurate to also absolve him of any of the blame.
Other teams who have a similar payroll as the Islanders have managed to do the best with what they've been given. A team like Nashville, for example, has their own internal budget that is always much less than the actual cap ceiling. Yet they're consistently in the playoff hunt. In fact, if their GM was allowed to always spend to the cap, they probably wouldn't miss the playoffs.
I also don't think it's completely accurate to say "well Garth tried to sign guys, but they wouldn't come here!". This business is results oriented. His job is to build a winning club, not to try his best to build one. It's up to him to figure out how to lure free agents to the Islanders.
While Snow's hands seem to certainly be tied with Wang's budget constraints, and thus you can't just point the finger at him and say the lack of results are completely his fault, I don't think it's accurate to also absolve him of any of the blame.
Other teams who have a similar payroll as the Islanders have managed to do the best with what they've been given. A team like Nashville, for example, has their own internal budget that is always much less than the actual cap ceiling. Yet they're consistently in the playoff hunt. In fact, if their GM was allowed to always spend to the cap, they probably wouldn't miss the playoffs.
I also don't think it's completely accurate to say "well Garth tried to sign guys, but they wouldn't come here!". This business is results oriented. His job is to build a winning club, not to try his best to build one. It's up to him to figure out how to lure free agents to the Islanders.
Nashville's payroll is almost 10mil higher, according to cap geek.
While Snow's hands seem to certainly be tied with Wang's budget constraints, and thus you can't just point the finger at him and say the lack of results are completely his fault, I don't think it's accurate to also absolve him of any of the blame.
Other teams who have a similar payroll as the Islanders have managed to do the best with what they've been given. A team like Nashville, for example, has their own internal budget that is always much less than the actual cap ceiling. Yet they're consistently in the playoff hunt. In fact, if their GM was allowed to always spend to the cap, they probably wouldn't miss the playoffs.
I also don't think it's completely accurate to say "well Garth tried to sign guys, but they wouldn't come here!". This business is results oriented. His job is to build a winning club, not to try his best to build one. It's up to him to figure out how to lure free agents to the Islanders.
As has already been pointed out, Nashville has a higher salary. But also of note, is that Nashville did go through many years of being a very poor team before getting where they are now. They went through a 6 season stretch where they finished outside of the bottom 7 for once (where they were 12th worst). But that's how they got players like Suter, Legwand and Weber to establish the core that they are now using. So if you're going to use them as a model, it's worthwhile to also note that when they were building the team they have now, they really weren't any better than we've been through our rebuild.
It's a catch-22, though. What owner is going to want to buy this team and keep it on Long Island?
Wang needs to keep the team here, get that finalized. Then sell the team. Unless we don't mind the team moving? I don't know anymore. I have no idea where I'm going to end up in a month or so once I graduate college and need to find a job.
Seems unlikely that a new buyer would keep the team local, but still possible of coarse.
Given the choice between a sub-mediocre/mediocre team playing on LI versus a real contender elsewhere, I go with the latter. I've been vacillating on this for a year now, but I'm just sick of losing. I'll continue to follow, perhaps not as passionately as now, and just maybe the franchise will be in well-intentioned hands and on its way to perennial success.
I also don't think it's completely accurate to say "well Garth tried to sign guys, but they wouldn't come here!". This business is results oriented. His job is to build a winning club, not to try his best to build one.
Excellent post. Just because you strike out on free agents doesn't mean its okay to ice a horrid team. why grab Schremp and then augment with a PAP? who was expected to kill penalties? where is the team speed? is toughness a player who plays under 2min per night?
It's the GMs job to ice a team that can compete. I can't name one player who's underachieved (besides DP - who missed two years).
This team lacks balance and personnel of quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GilliesGirlie
Snow hasn't done anything, but I think his hands are tied regardless of what Wang says he isn't going to spend any money until he gets want he wants and that is the Lighthouse.
I don't think getting rid of Snow will change anything at all, I firmly believe Snow is a puppet for Wang.
Sadly, I agree with your very good post. Nothing would change, not in the short term anyway. It's just a really sad puppet show up there and it's embarrassing.
Nashville's payroll is almost 10mil higher, according to cap geek.
I agree with the rest of your post though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
As has already been pointed out, Nashville has a higher salary. But also of note, is that Nashville did go through many years of being a very poor team before getting where they are now. They went through a 6 season stretch where they finished outside of the bottom 7 for once (where they were 12th worst). But that's how they got players like Suter, Legwand and Weber to establish the core that they are now using. So if you're going to use them as a model, it's worthwhile to also note that when they were building the team they have now, they really weren't any better than we've been through our rebuild.
My point was less about comparing their roster to the Isles, or comparing where each team is in their respective "cycle", but more about using them as another example of "team who has a budget but still being competitive". In short, a team that proves you can still have a playoff caliber roster with a small budget.
Look at St. Louis as another example. Their payroll (as per CapGeek) is just over $46 million. Colorado's current payroll is only $700k more than the Isles'. Two teams that are competitive despite the low budget.
Again, I'm not comparing where those teams are in their cycle with where the Isles are -- they very well might be ahead of the Isles by a couple of seasons -- but rather refuting this notion that it's simply not possible for Snow to assemble a competitive club based on his current budget. Those teams above prove it is possible.
My point was less about comparing their roster to the Isles, or comparing where each team is in their respective "cycle", but more about using them as another example of "team who has a budget but still being competitive". In short, a team that proves you can still have a playoff caliber roster with a small budget.
Look at St. Louis as another example. Their payroll (as per CapGeek) is just over $46 million. Colorado's current payroll is only $700k more than the Isles'. Two teams that are competitive despite the low budget.
Again, I'm not comparing where those teams are in their cycle with where the Isles are -- they very well might be ahead of the Isles by a couple of seasons -- but rather refuting this notion that it's simply not possible for Snow to assemble a competitive club based on his current budget. Those teams above prove it is possible.
You are right on point. This is a buisness based on results and results only. Snow has not produced anything, and trying only gets you somewhere in grade school. Snow has done a terrible job at assembling this team for the past 3 seasons, and should not keep his job just because we have a crappy owner.
A hypothetical question for the Snow defenders, if Wang sold the team and we stay in the same building, would you still want Snow here?
You are right on point. This is a buisness based on results and results only. Snow has not produced anything, and trying only gets you somewhere in grade school. Snow has done a terrible job at assembling this team for the past 3 seasons, and should not keep his job just because we have a crappy owner.
A hypothetical question for the Snow defenders, if Wang sold the team and we stay in the same building, would you still want Snow here?
I would like to see the entire front office cleaned out in that scenario.
I blame snow for hiring Gordan, but I believe Wang is deciding the first round draft picks. Seriously, why travel to the draft as an owner if you aren't making the selections. Wang has let it be known the Dipietro needs to be #1 starter no matter what. Remember Dipietro came back last season, and was annointed #1 goalie status right away. THats a Wang call. Garth Snow may be smug, in over his head, but a 10 year old would of known not to make Dipietro the #1 goalie last season or this season.
I blame snow for hiring Gordan, but I believe Wang is deciding the first round draft picks. Seriously, why travel to the draft as an owner if you aren't making the selections. Wang has let it be known the Dipietro needs to be #1 starter no matter what. Remember Dipietro came back last season, and was annointed #1 goalie status right away. THats a Wang call. Garth Snow may be smug, in over his head, but a 10 year old would of known not to make Dipietro the #1 goalie last season or this season.
Wang's not the only one who does this. Plenty of owners (that are owned by an individual, or a few people) show up to the drafts in any sport. Like it or not-Wang pays the bills, and he IS the Islanders. It's his team, and quite frankly I think people on LI should be thanking their lucky stars Wang's the owner-because he's the only thing keeping them on the Island.
If you guys think they wont be moved because they've won cups before-you're mistaken. Remember, the NHL is a BUSINESS first (it sucks-but it's reality). This team (aka-Wang) has so much working against him:
-Long Island is a small market (they don't really draw from the city), and most NHL markets have a higher and more concentrated population than Long Island
-Long Island is a saturated market-even on Long Island there's plenty of Ranger fans taking away a lot of business from the franchise
-New York State has a high income tax rate compared to most states (4 team's players don't even have to pay one), the arena isn't appealing to players either, making it difficult to sign good players-let alone having them stay
-The NVMC is awful. It sits 16,234 for hockey. If they sold out every single home game-they would still only be 20th in attendence in the league ( http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance )
I for one can't blame Wang for not spending a lot of money on this team-he's tried it before, and it hasn't panned out. There's simply no way to make money off this franchise without a new arena.
Wang's not the only one who does this. Plenty of owners (that are owned by an individual, or a few people) show up to the drafts in any sport. Like it or not-Wang pays the bills, and he IS the Islanders. It's his team, and quite frankly I think people on LI should be thanking their lucky stars Wang's the owner-because he's the only thing keeping them on the Island.
If you guys think they wont be moved because they've won cups before-you're mistaken. Remember, the NHL is a BUSINESS first (it sucks-but it's reality). This team (aka-Wang) has so much working against him:
-Long Island is a small market (they don't really draw from the city), and most NHL markets have a higher and more concentrated population than Long Island
-Long Island is a saturated market-even on Long Island there's plenty of Ranger fans taking away a lot of business from the franchise
-New York State has a high income tax rate compared to most states (4 team's players don't even have to pay one), the arena isn't appealing to players either, making it difficult to sign good players-let alone having them stay
-The NVMC is awful. It sits 16,234 for hockey. If they sold out every single home game-they would still only be 20th in attendence in the league ( http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance )
I for one can't blame Wang for not spending a lot of money on this team-he's tried it before, and it hasn't panned out. There's simply no way to make money off this franchise without a new arena.
I do think there are gray areas of manueverability to make the team better, you can't be all youngsters and you can't be all FA's, but to me the problem is that Snow doesn't sign Gordon type of players. I think the points about Long Island and NVMC and Wang are valid but within that scope you have a semi-transparent ideology difference between GM and coach.
The GM likes the stat sheet and goes after minor league heroes like Schremp and PAP, and doesn't value the bottom 6 guys like the Steve Begins of the world. I know Gordon wanted Begin and he probably would have been cheap. My feeling is that Gordon relies heavily on a hard working bottom 6 and got a lot of mileage out of the Thompsons, Parks and Bergeys, and guys like Parenteau, Schremp, Grabner etc.. are not going to fit into the system.
Snow also is slow to react, when Hillen took the puck to the face against Washington last year, we are in the midst of the playoff chase, he could have acquired a seasoned veteran to fill in, but instead we ended up with a disastrous dman named Mark Flood.
You don't always have to go for the big name and I feel that he is cautious because of Ryan Smyth, but the Islanders need band aids and stopgaps at times and Snow doesn't address that need.
Let's say the Islanders went out and acquired Tomas Kaberle and gave up some futures for him after Hillen went down. Suddenly we are going into our weak depth chart and now have filled in the hole nicely.
Many people last year said, what is the point of making the playoffs if Pittsburgh or Washington are just going to smack us. Well those teams didn't go far in fact Montreal just took out Washington because of a hot goalie. The mindset of the Islanders and Snow is not to fix problems outside the organization, which in some cases can be faulty. I think the best GM's are those that know how to build a system while adding pieces along the way.
Wang's not the only one who does this. Plenty of owners (that are owned by an individual, or a few people) show up to the drafts in any sport. Like it or not-Wang pays the bills, and he IS the Islanders. It's his team, and quite frankly I think people on LI should be thanking their lucky stars Wang's the owner-because he's the only thing keeping them on the Island.
If you guys think they wont be moved because they've won cups before-you're mistaken. Remember, the NHL is a BUSINESS first (it sucks-but it's reality). This team (aka-Wang) has so much working against him:
-Long Island is a small market (they don't really draw from the city), and most NHL markets have a higher and more concentrated population than Long Island
-Long Island is a saturated market-even on Long Island there's plenty of Ranger fans taking away a lot of business from the franchise
-New York State has a high income tax rate compared to most states (4 team's players don't even have to pay one), the arena isn't appealing to players either, making it difficult to sign good players-let alone having them stay
-The NVMC is awful. It sits 16,234 for hockey. If they sold out every single home game-they would still only be 20th in attendence in the league ( http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance )
I for one can't blame Wang for not spending a lot of money on this team-he's tried it before, and it hasn't panned out. There's simply no way to make money off this franchise without a new arena.
Which other owner has made the team the joke of the league? Wang's ownership has been a failure. He knew what he was getting into when he bought the team, he is full of greed. I have no sympathy for this control freak.
My point was less about comparing their roster to the Isles, or comparing where each team is in their respective "cycle", but more about using them as another example of "team who has a budget but still being competitive". In short, a team that proves you can still have a playoff caliber roster with a small budget.
Look at St. Louis as another example. Their payroll (as per CapGeek) is just over $46 million. Colorado's current payroll is only $700k more than the Isles'. Two teams that are competitive despite the low budget.
Again, I'm not comparing where those teams are in their cycle with where the Isles are -- they very well might be ahead of the Isles by a couple of seasons -- but rather refuting this notion that it's simply not possible for Snow to assemble a competitive club based on his current budget. Those teams above prove it is possible.
Obviously your comparison wasn't that the two teams were at the same place. My entire point was that you were ignoring the fact that the two teams aren't at the same place in their rebuild, and that it makes it an unfair comparison.
With all the talk about "Garth offered the contracts, they just didn't come here."
Small test #1 (as to how much Wang is willing to spend) is coming this summer.
Josh Bailey.
Granted, he is an RFA (and that's why I'm calling it a small test), but, we might get a small indicator then as to what Wang is willing to spend (or allow Snow to spend) on the core-boys of the rebuild.
With all the talk about "Garth offered the contracts, they just didn't come here."
Small test #1 (as to how much Wang is willing to spend) is coming this summer.
Josh Bailey.
Granted, he is an RFA (and that's why I'm calling it a small test), but, we might get a small indicator then as to what Wang is willing to spend (or allow Snow to spend) on the core-boys of the rebuild.
I love Josh Bailey, have his jersey and think he will be good. But, there is no way Bailey should see more than 1.3-1.4 million a season and even that is pushing it for what he has done. Basically, the only thing Bailey has earned with his on ice play is the minimum salary bump. The first real internal test will be KO when his contract runs out.
I would like to see the entire front office cleaned out in that scenario.
I am sure there are many who feel the same as you, so why do you want Snow to stick around now? If he is not good enough for a hypothetical new owner than he is not good enough for this one.
I love Josh Bailey, have his jersey and think he will be good. But, there is no way Bailey should see more than 1.3-1.4 million a season and even that is pushing it for what he has done. Basically, the only thing Bailey has earned with his on ice play is the minimum salary bump. The first real internal test will be KO when his contract runs out.
Obviously your comparison wasn't that the two teams were at the same place. My entire point was that you were ignoring the fact that the two teams aren't at the same place in their rebuild, and that it makes it an unfair comparison.
I wasn't ignoring it, it's just irrelevant to the main thing I was touching upon. Which is this blanket statement belief that Snow shouldn't be held accountable because it's not possible to ice a competitive team with a low budget. That is patently false.
And while I may be paraphrasing or using creative freedom in the exact wording, the general defense I've seen of Snow is that it's not his fault the team can't compete, because his budget ties his hands too much. I offered examples of teams who are competing, despite similar budget constraints.
The fact is, Snow's done a bad job of building the *current* roster. As I believe redbull has mentioned a couple of times, it's too heavy on powerplay specialists and not enough guys who can actually contribute at five on five.
You have a core of Tavares, Okposo, Bailey (and to a lesser extent Nielsen, Comeau and Moulson) up front. Snow's job is to find the right compliments to those guys, to ensure not only can they play their game and develop properly, but also to cover for their current weaknesses. Bringing in the Schremps, the Parenteaus, the Grabners, the 2-minute man Gillies, doesn't compliment that core. It puts even more pressure on that core to not only carry the burden offensively, but ALSO puts pressure on them to do things maybe they're not ready or able to do at this point (ie. handle the physical duties, handle the defensive responsibilities, play the PK).
Snow can't be blamed for not landing Kovalchuk. Hey, the guy didn't want to sign in New York. He can be blamed, however, for adding pieces to this roster that were absolutely the wrong pieces. And that's where my notion that even on a budget, he didn't spend what money he had available to him wisely comes in.
I wasn't ignoring it, it's just irrelevant to the main thing I was touching upon. Which is this blanket statement belief that Snow shouldn't be held accountable because it's not possible to ice a competitive team with a low budget. That is patently false.
And while I may be paraphrasing or using creative freedom in the exact wording, the general defense I've seen of Snow is that it's not his fault the team can't compete, because his budget ties his hands too much. I offered examples of teams who are competing, despite similar budget constraints.
The fact is, Snow's done a bad job of building the *current* roster. As I believe redbull has mentioned a couple of times, it's too heavy on powerplay specialists and not enough guys who can actually contribute at five on five.
You have a core of Tavares, Okposo, Bailey (and to a lesser extent Nielsen, Comeau and Moulson) up front. Snow's job is to find the right compliments to those guys, to ensure not only can they play their game and develop properly, but also to cover for their current weaknesses. Bringing in the Schremps, the Parenteaus, the Grabners, the 2-minute man Gillies, doesn't compliment that core. It puts even more pressure on that core to not only carry the burden offensively, but ALSO puts pressure on them to do things maybe they're not ready or able to do at this point (ie. handle the physical duties, handle the defensive responsibilities, play the PK).
Snow can't be blamed for not landing Kovalchuk. Hey, the guy didn't want to sign in New York. He can be blamed, however, for adding pieces to this roster that were absolutely the wrong pieces. And that's where my notion that even on a budget, he didn't spend what money he had available to him wisely comes in.
I know this is a moot point. But wait a minute... whoever said Kovalchuk did not want to sign here? I seem to remember every source close to the Islanders said they made a exploratory phone call or as snow called it, some BS like "doing my due diligence." As far as I understand, Kovalchuk was never even given an official offer by the Islanders.
I know this is a moot point. But wait a minute... whoever said Kovalchuk did not want to sign here? I seem to remember every source close to the Islanders said they made a exploratory phone call or as snow called it, some BS like "doing my due diligence." As far as I understand, Kovalchuk was never even given an official offer by the Islanders.
This, along with the Paul Martin and Dan Hamhuis thing, actually touches on another issue.
Does Snow actually have this budget constraint people defending him say he does? If he does, then how was he able to offer Martin and Hamhuis more money than they actually signed for? Why would he even bother to do his "due diligence" with Kovalchuk if he didn't have the budget to offer him a contract anyway?
Either Snow is fabricating these ideas he was actually looking at these higher priced free agents so he can say to the fans, "I'm trying. I really am", or Wang actually gave him a higher budget than what Snow ended up spending. Both can't occur. He couldn't be given a strict budget by Wang AND also be able to offer Martin over $5 million per year, or phone up Kovalchuk's people just to touch base with a guy who was guaranteed to make over $6 million.
So, if in fact he did have more money to spend than he actually spent, that goes back to the fact that Snow didn't do a very good job of spending the allotted funds to ice as good a club as was possible this season. So he should get some blame for the current roster and its lack of results.
This, along with the Paul Martin and Dan Hamhuis thing, actually touches on another issue.
Does Snow actually have this budget constraint people defending him say he does? If he does, then how was he able to offer Martin and Hamhuis more money than they actually signed for? Why would he even bother to do his "due diligence" with Kovalchuk if he didn't have the budget to offer him a contract anyway?
Either Snow is fabricating these ideas he was actually looking at these higher priced free agents so he can say to the fans, "I'm trying. I really am", or Wang actually gave him a higher budget than what Snow ended up spending. Both can't occur. He couldn't be given a strict budget by Wang AND also be able to offer Martin over $5 million per year, or phone up Kovalchuk's people just to touch base with a guy who was guaranteed to make over $6 million.
So, if in fact he did have more money to spend than he actually spent, that goes back to the fact that Snow didn't do a very good job of spending the allotted funds to ice as good a club as was possible this season. So he should get some blame for the current roster and its lack of results.
Snow has said publicly that he has "budget to spend" and Wang has also said that Garth has budget if he feels he can improve the team.
I don't believe it for a second.
I think Wang's agenda is to keep the payroll to the league minimum or less (Isles are actually below the floor in terms of money spent on roster players).
Actions speak much louder than words.
But, taking people at their word means that Snow has failed miserably to put a competitive team on the ice (I'd say the same for the last two years as well)
I haven't read the whole thread, but I can't agree with the OP.(and I should have read the entire post!)
Yes, this team sucks, it has sucked for a long time. Well know that, I just don't think Snow's head is the one we should be calling for. Sadly, the guy's head we should be calling for is that of the owner.
Snow hasn't done anything, but I think his hands are tied regardless of what Wang says he isn't going to spend any money until he gets want he wants and that is the Lighthouse.
I don't think getting rid of Snow will change anything at all, I firmly believe Snow is a puppet for Wang.
I think I can get agreement in this outlandish idea:
Can you pick a better coach? is there one? Then we go for it.
Is there a better GM available who can get that coach? Of course there is. No doubt about it. We pul all the stops and grab him so we can have the top coach AND hire better scouts and staff.
We then are more attractive and sell more tickets and Wang either can sell it more easily or Wang can step aside and not meddle.
But if we did that.....Wang wouldn't be the issue. Why hasn't he gotten an improvement and kept it?
Because he wants to meddle and be the boss so we won't ever get a good NHL quality coach and keep him and our GM will always be third tier. Wang wants to be a player and a quality team wouldn't allow for that.
