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Top 25 players since Gary Bettman was named commissioner

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Old
11-04-2010, 05:11 PM
  #26
jkrx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
My list:

1. Dominik Hasek
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Jaromir Jagr
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Steve Yzerman
6. Joe Sakic
7. Martin Brodeur
8. Patrick Roy
9. Chris Pronger
10. Sergei Fedorov
11. Chris Chelios
12. Joe Thornton
13. Peter Forsberg
14. Teemu Selanne
15. Eric Lindros
16. Brett Hull
17. Scott Stevens
18. Al MacInnis
19. Alexander Ovechkin
20. Brendan Shanahan
21. Ray Bourque
22. Jarome Iginla
23. Sidney Crosby
24. Ed Belfour
25. Mats Sundin
Good list I like that you made a slot for Shanahan however I think Chelios is a bit too high as I think Stevens was better than him after ~95 but I guess its a matter of taste. Great list.

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Old
11-04-2010, 05:18 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
As was said above, it is definetly harder to win a cup as a most valueable player of team when your 3rd and 4th most valuable players are Rucchin and Hebert.

BTW... In cup years was Forsberg arguably not better than 3rd or 4th most valuable player of Avs.

Put things into perspective.
Forsberg was a far, far better playoff performer than Selanne. I can't believe you're even arguing this. When did Forsberg ever have a bad playoffs? The guy dominated consistently. He scored at a 1.13 ppg pace, while Selanne scored at .68. That's the difference between a 92 point season and a 55 point season.

Compared to his regular season resume, Selanne's playoff resume is pretty poor. 2007 is a great example. 15 points is great if you're a defenseman (Pronger) or a second year forward (Perry). But when you're a 95 point player who led his team in scoring by a mile? That's not exactly stepping up. Selanne had nearly twice as many regular season goals as anyone else on his team, but playoff goal scoring was carried by guys like Andy MacDonald, Travis Moen, and two 50-point players in Getzlaf and Perry. He didn't even score in the finals.

Nobody expects a player to carry a crap team to the Cup. But you do expect him to perform like he should. Selanne led his team in playoff scoring once in his entire career, in 2006. His playoff resume is pretty mediocre for a player of his calibre.


Last edited by arrbez: 11-04-2010 at 05:27 PM.
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11-04-2010, 05:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
The fact that you even considered Selanne over Jagr is hilarious. At what point was Selanne ever a better player? From 1994 until Jagr left the NHL, the only season Selanne outscored him was in 1997, and Jagr was on pace to outscore him easily if he didn't miss 20 games.

Sakic was pretty clearly better too. Better offensive stats, higher scoring finishes, and WAY better in the playoffs.
I still think Selanne was the better pure goal scorer. Selanne did not get to play with anyone the caliber of Mario Lemieux either.

If Selanne and Kariya had a better centerman they would have recorded even better numbers, and Selanne could have very well won an Art Ross.

Sakic wasn't clearly better, maybe a better playmaker, but not the better goal scorer, which is still the number one stat imo, when were looking at forwards. and you can't really compare playoff stats, when Selanne has had very limited chance to play in the playoffs. and the only time he's made it to the playoffs with a cup contender (avs) he was playing injured, or at the tail-end of his career with the new ducks. But yeah i guess it is safe to say forsberg and Sakic had better playoffs, but they had a alot more opportunities to play in them as well.

If Selanne played on a team during his prime like the rangers, penguins or avalanche he would have undoubtedly put up huge playoff numbers too. but he never had the chance, so we'll never know.

As well. Yzerman would undoubtedly be way higher up on the list if the list started at the 87/88 season... but this thread is 92/93 and up, therefore Yzerman is further down.

yeah, maybe there's no justification for stamkos on there, but one 51 goal season, and the start of this season, make me feel he can be on this list more justifiably than any other ultra young star in the NHL right now- and since i didn't cuttoff the list at 2008 or anything, might as well add another player who is playing right now.


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Old
11-04-2010, 05:49 PM
  #29
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I agree that Forsberg´s playoffs record is much more impressive, but the title does not say "Top 25 players in playoffs". You have to take the regular season in to an account too.


Last edited by heksagon: 11-04-2010 at 06:05 PM.
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Old
11-04-2010, 06:11 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
I still think Selanne was the better pure goal scorer. Selanne did not get to play with anyone the caliber of Mario Lemieux either.
Jagr won 4 scoring titles without Lemieux, and in dominant fashion...

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11-04-2010, 06:44 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heksagon View Post
I agree that Forsberg´s playoffs record is much more impressive, but the title does not say "Top 25 players in playoffs". You have to take the regular season in to an account too.
I think Forsberg was a better player in the regular season as well. He has a Hart and Art Ross, and was widely considered the best forward in the game for a couple years there. Arguably better offensively than Selanne, but clearly better at every other facet of the game. His inability to stay healthy obviously hurts him though. I could see giving Selanne the edge there. But the playoffs put Forsberg well over the top for me.

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11-04-2010, 06:51 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I think Forsberg was a better player in the regular season as well. He has a Hart and Art Ross, and was widely considered the best forward in the game for a couple years there. Arguably better offensively than Selanne, but clearly better at every other facet of the game. His inability to stay healthy obviously hurts him though. I could see giving Selanne the edge there. But the playoffs put Forsberg well over the top for me.
Forsbergs art ross was with 106 pts i think? and heavily on the assists side. I'm a huge forsberg fan, but Selanne had seasons over 106 4 times.

3 of which he had over 45 goals.

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11-04-2010, 06:53 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Very good list. The only real issue I see is Brett Hull being that high. His peak happened before the years in question. He should definitely be in the bottom half of that list, if at all.
He finished second in league in goals in 93/94 with 57.

How is that not still at, (or at least near), his peak?

After the year in question he still had five seasons where he was top ten in goals.

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11-04-2010, 07:01 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
If Selanne and Kariya had a better centerman they would have recorded even better numbers, and Selanne could have very well won an Art Ross.
And if Selanne didn't get to play with the best LWer in the game, his stats would have been worse. He was hardly hurting for linemates with a guy like Kariya across from him. There were plenty of star players worse off than he was in that department.

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11-04-2010, 07:07 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lextune View Post
He finished second in league in goals in 93/94 with 57.

How is that not still at, (or at least near), his peak?

After the year in question he still had five seasons where he was top ten in goals.
Sure, he was still a good player. But this timeframe misses his 70+ goal seasons, which are obviously his claim to fame. He didn't place top-10 in points once after 1992 or make an all-star team, and he only finished top-5 in goals one time.

9th on the list is just too high for the period in question, IMO. Not because he was bad, but just because other guys were better.

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11-04-2010, 07:20 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
9th on the list is just too high for the period in question, IMO. Not because he was bad, but just because other guys were better.
You're actually right... in hindsight I don't think Hull's career from 1992 onwards would seriously be enough to even put him ahead of a guy like Shanahan.

I'd also probably move Scott Stevens up one more, sandwich him between Selanne and Lindros.

Belfour at 25th might be something to think about as well.

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11-04-2010, 07:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I think Forsberg was a better player in the regular season as well. He has a Hart and Art Ross, and was widely considered the best forward in the game for a couple years there. Arguably better offensively than Selanne, but clearly better at every other facet of the game. His inability to stay healthy obviously hurts him though. I could see giving Selanne the edge there. But the playoffs put Forsberg well over the top for me.
Which also hurt Forsberg in award voting. Selänne has the edge there too if you remove the year Forsberg won the hart.

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11-04-2010, 07:22 PM
  #38
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Which also hurt Forsberg in award voting. Selänne has the edge there too if you remove the year Forsberg won the hart.
So.. in other words, Selanne doesn't have the edge?

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11-04-2010, 07:28 PM
  #39
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So what's this thread really about? Ranking the top-25 players since expansion? Or trying to put Selanne ahead of players he has no business being ahead of?

Without a second thought, he needs to at least be behind Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Bourque, Lidstrom, Pronger, Ovechkin, and Crosby.

Guys like MacInnis, Messier, Yzerman, Coffey, Oates, Hull, Stevens, Gilmour, Gretzky are definitely better, but probably achieved too much of their best years prior to 1993 to be considered.

Guys like Iginla, Thornton, Niedermayer, Belfour, Lindros, Shanahan are debatable.

guys like Bure, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Heatley, Stamkos, Gonchar, Kariya aren't close.

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11-04-2010, 07:31 PM
  #40
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Yzerman and Brett Hull are way too high on these lists.

edit. and Sakic


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11-04-2010, 07:48 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So what's this thread really about? Ranking the top-25 players since expansion? Or trying to put Selanne ahead of players he has no business being ahead of?

Without a second thought, he needs to at least be behind Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Bourque, Lidstrom, Pronger, Ovechkin, and Crosby.

Guys like MacInnis, Messier, Yzerman, Coffey, Oates, Hull, Stevens, Gilmour, Gretzky are definitely better, but probably achieved too much of their best years prior to 1993 to be considered.

Guys like Iginla, Thornton, Niedermayer, Belfour, Lindros, Shanahan are debatable.

guys like Bure, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Heatley, Stamkos, Gonchar, Kariya aren't close.
Chelios could be in the debatable category as well. If you include the 1992-1993 season. Bettman took over in February 1993, so I'm not sure where that season falls.

If you include it Chelios has 2 Norris, 4 1st Team All-Stars, 1 2nd Team, a solid contributor to one Cup, and a support player for another.

At the very least he is in the category of definitely better but achieved too much before 1993

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11-04-2010, 08:15 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So what's this thread really about? Ranking the top-25 players since expansion? Or trying to put Selanne ahead of players he has no business being ahead of?

Without a second thought, he needs to at least be behind Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Bourque, Lidstrom, Pronger, Ovechkin, and Crosby.

Guys like MacInnis, Messier, Yzerman, Coffey, Oates, Hull, Stevens, Gilmour, Gretzky are definitely better, but probably achieved too much of their best years prior to 1993 to be considered.

Guys like Iginla, Thornton, Niedermayer, Belfour, Lindros, Shanahan are debatable.

guys like Bure, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Heatley, Stamkos, Gonchar, Kariya aren't close.
well first off if you read the OP, I said NO GOALIES. and Selanne definitely is not behind Ray Borque in a list based on 92/93 and onwards. Federov? no. Sakic? maybe. Forsberg... maybe, but I'd but Selanne ahead of him still... MUCH MUCH MUCH better goalscorer. Pronger? I'd still put Selanne in front of him, for sure.

Lidstrom, Jagr and Lemieux were all ahead of Selanne on my list. Crosby... maybe in 5 years.. the only player you listed as a without a second thought ahead of Selanne I could maybe agree with that I had lower on my list would be Ovi.

this wasn't a list made to "unjustifiably put selanne ahead of other players, he has no business being ahead of..." that is simply your opinion dude..

I think the title of the thread stated what the point of this list was. and maybe if I didn't have a selanne pic in my avatar you wouldn't have jumped to so many conclusions??


and like i said, post your own list and stop crying

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11-04-2010, 08:18 PM
  #43
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Seanconn, you might want to start justifying why you have Selanne ahead of these guys... "no" and "maybe" won't cut it around here.

For example, Fedorov has a Hart, a Selke, 3 Cups and nearly 1,000 points since 1992. He's one of the best two-way centers in the history of the game - up there with Bobby Clarke, and he's an incredible playoff performer to boot. His career is far more impressive than Selanne's one-dimensional regular season snipefest.

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11-04-2010, 08:27 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
I think the title of the thread stated what the point of this list was. and maybe if I didn't have a selanne pic in my avatar you wouldn't have jumped to so many conclusions??
Well, it wouldn't have been as obvious that you were Selanne's #1 fan, but I think most of us would have caught on.

He just wasn't as good as guys like Forsberg or Sakic. Base it on awards, stats, general opinion, whatever you like. Those guys are almost universally regarded as better players because they were better players.

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11-04-2010, 08:27 PM
  #45
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In how many of them was he fully recovered from injury and full healthy?
If Forsberg is playing injured and still outproduces Selanne, that is a detriment to Selanne, not to Forsberg.

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11-04-2010, 08:29 PM
  #46
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Seanconn, you might want to start justifying why you have Selanne ahead of these guys... "no" and "maybe" won't cut it around here.

For example, Fedorov has a Hart, a Selke, 3 Cups and nearly 1,000 points since 1992. He's one of the best two-way centers in the history of the game - up there with Bobby Clarke, and he's an incredible playoff performer to boot. His career is far more impressive than Selanne's one-dimensional regular season snipefest.
Absolutely. Fedorov > Selanne pretty easy. The only way anyone would rank Selanne ahead is if all you cared about was regular season offense.

(Just to nitpick, Fedorov won two Selkes).

By the way, I can't see justifying Lindros over Stevens even in this time frame. The two men had a bitter rivalry, and one of them came out on top more often than not, including both times it really mattered. And that man wasn't Lindros.

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11-04-2010, 11:49 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post

So from the 1992/1993 season up until now.

1) Mario Lemieux
2) Niklas Lidstrom
3) Jaromir Jagr
4) Teemu Selanne
5) Alex Ovechkin
6) Sydney Crosby
7) Joe Sakic
8) Peter Forsberg
9) Pavel Bure
10) Sergei Fedorov
11) Scott Neidermayer
12) Eric Lindros
13) Chris Pronger
14) Wayne Gretzky
15) Ilya Kovalchuk
16) Evgeni Malkin
17) Joe Thornton
18) Dany Heatley
19) Steve Stamkos
20) Scott Stevens
21) Sergei Gonchar
22) Jarome Iginla
23) Steve Yzerman
24) Paul Kariya
25) Brett Hull

.
Only to ease into this but there are some glaring omissions on this list.

Ronnie Francis, Mark Messier (had great seasons from 92-2004 and led his team to a Cup) Adam Oates, Dave Andreychuck, Peter Bondra, Dougie Weight, Joey Niewendyk, Jeremy Roenick, Luc Robitaille (who scored 63 in 1993)

Those are guys right off the top of my head that had monster seasons in the 90s and early 00's.

I look at it like this, who would you rather have on your team?

Ilya Kovalchuk, Sergei Gonchar, Paul Kariya Steven Stamkos and Dany Heatly do not in my opinion beat out any of the names I listed as an omission. Heck, I would take Trevor Linden over the 5 of those guys for what he brought to the ice. Stamkos has one year of greatness, way too soon to be calling him top 25.

And I know the Finnish Flash was/is a heck of a player but number 4 is way too high for him. He doesn't make a top 100 all time list, I don't know how he makes top 25 for an era with the guys that played in the 90's.

If you mention Lindros, why not Neely? Both shorten careers and Cam had his big years after Bettyman took over. His 50 in 44 games was 1994. Am I saying Cam should make the list??? No but if Lindros makes it, then Cam would have to. Cam is on the HOF, something Lindros will never be.


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11-04-2010, 11:52 PM
  #48
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Sakic? maybe.
I'm curious, what argument is there for Selanne being ahead of Sakic?

Offense. Through the end of last season, Sakic outscored Selanne by 14 points in 107 fewer games. In terms of peak, Sakic has more seasons as a top ten scorer (8 vs 7) and more as a top five scorer (6 vs 4). Selanne played on weaker teams for much of this period, though. Selanne was the better goal-scorer, Sakic the better playmaker. I would call this at best a draw, and that would be giving a generous amount of consideration to the "weaker team" argument.

Defense. Sakic was clearly a better defensive player. I don't think anybody who watched both players would disagree. Sakic had several seasons where he placed top ten in Selke voting (2000, 2001, 2002), Selanne has none. Sakic consistently earned more ice time on the penalty kill.

Playoffs. Sakic has a massive advantage in scoring (1.09 ppg versus 0.69 ppg) and justifiably has a reputation as one of the best clutch scorers in hockey history.

Awards. Sakic won the Hart in 2001 and also placed 7th (1991), 7th (1996), 7th (2002), 7th (2004), 8th (2007). Selanne placed 3rd (1998), 5th (1997), 5th (1999), 6th (1993), 9th (2007). Pretty close. Sakic has a Conn Smythe, Selanne has a Calder.

International play. There are few players who can match Selanne's international record. Sakic is no slouch (MVP of 2002 Olympics; key contributor to 2004 World Cup tournament) but Selanne gets the edge here.

If you look at regular season offense, it's about even. Looking at the whole picture, Sakic is clearly ahead. I can't see any argument for putting Selanne ahead unless you complete ignore defensive play and the playoffs.

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11-04-2010, 11:55 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
and like i said, post your own list and stop crying
very hard in the odd timeframe given to weigh longevity and consistency against peak performance, but here's my shot:

1. hasek
2. lemieux
3. lidstrom
4. jagr
5. roy/sakic
7. brodeur
8. fedorov
9. forsberg
10. pronger
11. stevens
12. chelios
13. ovechkin
14. crosby
15. thornton
16. selanne
17. yzerman
18. bourque
19. macinnis
20. niedermayer
21. iginla/bure
23. belfour
24. modano
25. shanahan

26-35

recchi
alfredsson
hull
sundin
elias
leetch
oates
blake
st. louis
tkachuk? or datsyuk? or gretzky? (very strange to be speaking of those three in the same breath.)

EDIT: oops, forgot lindros. but am not sure where he belongs. could be before thornton, or could be behind iginla/bure.

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11-05-2010, 01:13 AM
  #50
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Chelios could be in the debatable category as well. If you include the 1992-1993 season. Bettman took over in February 1993, so I'm not sure where that season falls.

If you include it Chelios has 2 Norris, 4 1st Team All-Stars, 1 2nd Team, a solid contributor to one Cup, and a support player for another.

At the very least he is in the category of definitely better but achieved too much before 1993
I would put Chelios ahead... I just totally forgot him in my earlier post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
well first off if you read the OP, I said NO GOALIES. and Selanne definitely is not behind Ray Borque in a list based on 92/93 and onwards. Federov? no. Sakic? maybe. Forsberg... maybe, but I'd but Selanne ahead of him still... MUCH MUCH MUCH better goalscorer. Pronger? I'd still put Selanne in front of him, for sure.
Bourque had four 1st team all-stars and two 2nd teams after 1992. He was also a much bigger contributor to a cup win than Selanne was. And even though he is a defenseman, his 0.70 playoff PPG is higher than Selanne's - ouch!

Fedorov, Sakic, and Forsberg have been addressed just fine by other posters already.

Why would Pronger be behind Selanne. Can anyone honestly claim Selanne has been more valuable to his teams than Pronger?

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