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Top 25 players since Gary Bettman was named commissioner

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Old
11-06-2010, 01:25 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I would put Chelios ahead... I just totally forgot him in my earlier post.



Bourque had four 1st team all-stars and two 2nd teams after 1992. He was also a much bigger contributor to a cup win than Selanne was. And even though he is a defenseman, his 0.70 playoff PPG is higher than Selanne's - ouch!

Fedorov, Sakic, and Forsberg have been addressed just fine by other posters already.

Why would Pronger be behind Selanne. Can anyone honestly claim Selanne has been more valuable to his teams than Pronger?
all time list, I'll agree with you on Borque > Selanne with no argument, obviously. this list? come on. Borque maybe deserved a spot on my list over Gonchar or Zubov... but they both scored more points than him during that time period. plus all three have cups... so since they were all in there primes, and bourque wasn't.. I'll keep them on... but put him on your list by all means. (if you ever post one) he definitely played amazingly well as a veteran defensemen from 92/93 onwards, and was one of the best right up until his retirement... maybe he'd be number 26 on my list? I was heavy on forwards...

was Selanne more valuable to the MightyDucks, than Pronger was to the Blues in the 1990's? I'd say it's close, since Selanne and Kariya were basically equally important to the Mighty Ducks as Pronger was to the Blues, but I'll give the edge to Pronger on the Blues.

was Selanne more important to the Ducks than Pronger was in the time they played together in Anaheim up until they won the cup? 100% most defintiely. leading scorer on the team by a long shot, in the two seasons leading up to the eventual cup win... vs top pairing D-man added to the team the season leading up to the cup win, Selanne beats out Pronger as important to the Anaheim Ducks in my opinion, no debate. (pronger may have been the missing piece that made winning the cup possible, but he was equally as important as Neids) therefore, Selanne gets the edge.

also, this thread isn't top25 players in hart voting, or most valuable to their teams 92/93 and onwards, it's top 25 individuals.

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Old
11-06-2010, 02:12 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
all time list, I'll agree with you on Borque > Selanne with no argument, obviously. this list? come on. Borque maybe deserved a spot on my list over Gonchar or Zubov... but they both scored more points than him during that time period. plus all three have cups... so since they were all in there primes, and bourque wasn't.. I'll keep them on... but put him on your list by all means. (if you ever post one) he definitely played amazingly well as a veteran defensemen from 92/93 onwards, and was one of the best right up until his retirement... maybe he'd be number 26 on my list? I was heavy on forwards...

was Selanne more valuable to the MightyDucks, than Pronger was to the Blues in the 1990's? I'd say it's close, since Selanne and Kariya were basically equally important to the Mighty Ducks as Pronger was to the Blues, but I'll give the edge to Pronger on the Blues.

was Selanne more important to the Ducks than Pronger was in the time they played together in Anaheim up until they won the cup? 100% most defintiely. leading scorer on the team by a long shot, in the two seasons leading up to the eventual cup win... vs top pairing D-man added to the team the season leading up to the cup win, Selanne beats out Pronger as important to the Anaheim Ducks in my opinion, no debate. (pronger may have been the missing piece that made winning the cup possible, but he was equally as important as Neids) therefore, Selanne gets the edge.

also, this thread isn't top25 players in hart voting, or most valuable to their teams 92/93 and onwards, it's top 25 individuals.
Wait, did you not even have Bourque on your list? ROFL. I'm curious, which players have more than 6 postseason all-star teams since 1993? there must be about 25 of them...

That's fine that you think Selanne was more valuable to the Ducks than Pronger. You keep on thinking that, and everyone else will keep not agreeing with you.

My list? I guess I'm bored enough to take a stab at this Selanne tire-pumping exercise and pretend a lot of all-time greats never played a game before 1993:

1. Lidstrom
2. Jagr
3. Lemieux
4. Sakic
5. Forsberg
6. Pronger
7. Bourque
8. Crosby
9. Ovechkin
10. Chelios
11. Fedorov
12. Lindros
13. Selanne
14. Thornton
15. Iginla
16. Niedermayer
17. Sundin
18. Blake
19. Recchi
20. Modano
21. Chara
22. Shanahan
23. Alfredsson
24. Bure
25. Stevens

If I could include goalies, I would put Hasek 1st, and Roy and Brodeur after Sakic and before Forsberg. (Yes, I think Roy did enough post-1992 to be better than Brodeur, regular season compiling/counting stats don't do it for me like they do for you, Mr. "I think Gonchar, Kovalchuk, Zubov and Hull are among the top-15 players since 1993") Also, Belfour behind Iginla.

Now that I'm participating, I have to ask you and others:

- Yzerman 5th, 7th, 17th, 23rd? The 1992-93 season was his last as an elite scorer.
- Stevens 11th, 17th, 20th? I could barely find room for the guy.
- Gretzky did get a scoring title, but he was just a point compiler by then. There's no room for him near the bottom when guys like Alfredsson and Shanahan who were difference-makers for years are there.
- Kovalchuk, Heatley, Malkin, Stamkos - that's just silly at this point.

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Old
11-06-2010, 02:38 AM
  #53
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Yzerman had a great two-way game and a Conn Smythe.

Why is Malkin just silly but Crosby is 8th? Conn Smythe, Art Ross, second in scoring in 2008.

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Old
11-06-2010, 03:10 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wait, did you not even have Bourque on your list? ROFL. I'm curious, which players have more than 6 postseason all-star teams since 1993? there must be about 25 of them...

That's fine that you think Selanne was more valuable to the Ducks than Pronger. You keep on thinking that, and everyone else will keep not agreeing with you.

My list? I guess I'm bored enough to take a stab at this Selanne tire-pumping exercise and pretend a lot of all-time greats never played a game before 1993:

1. Lidstrom
2. Jagr
3. Lemieux
4. Sakic
5. Forsberg
6. Pronger
7. Bourque
8. Crosby
9. Ovechkin
10. Chelios
11. Fedorov
12. Lindros
13. Selanne
14. Thornton
15. Iginla
16. Niedermayer
17. Sundin
18. Blake
19. Recchi
20. Modano
21. Chara
22. Shanahan
23. Alfredsson
24. Bure
25. Stevens

If I could include goalies, I would put Hasek 1st, and Roy and Brodeur after Sakic and before Forsberg. (Yes, I think Roy did enough post-1992 to be better than Brodeur, regular season compiling/counting stats don't do it for me like they do for you, Mr. "I think Gonchar, Kovalchuk, Zubov and Hull are among the top-15 players since 1993") Also, Belfour behind Iginla.

Now that I'm participating, I have to ask you and others:

- Yzerman 5th, 7th, 17th, 23rd? The 1992-93 season was his last as an elite scorer.
- Stevens 11th, 17th, 20th? I could barely find room for the guy.
- Gretzky did get a scoring title, but he was just a point compiler by then. There's no room for him near the bottom when guys like Alfredsson and Shanahan who were difference-makers for years are there.
- Kovalchuk, Heatley, Malkin, Stamkos - that's just silly at this point.
Honestly, if you value playoffs, Stevens has to be on the list with 3 Cups, for all of which he was one of the clearcut Top 3 players on his team. He also had the best regular season of his career during this time period. (93-94, which would have run away with the Norris most seasons) I'd list him over Lindros, just based on post-1993 play. Right between Fedorov and Lindros sounds right.

Yzerman most likely should be on this list too - his playoff performances and two-way game were too much to ignore - in some ways, he was a better player than when he was a one-way scorer. I would rate post-1993 Yzerman over Recchi or Bure without thinking twice and probably just a bit over Modano. (Honestly, I can't see any reason whatsoever to put Recchi over Modano for the time period).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-06-2010 at 03:26 AM.
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11-06-2010, 03:22 AM
  #55
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Stamkos in two seasons has outdone guys who played out entire careers in that timeframe?

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11-06-2010, 01:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wait, did you not even have Bourque on your list? ROFL. I'm curious, which players have more than 6 postseason all-star teams since 1993? there must be about 25 of them...

That's fine that you think Selanne was more valuable to the Ducks than Pronger. You keep on thinking that, and everyone else will keep not agreeing with you.

My list? I guess I'm bored enough to take a stab at this Selanne tire-pumping exercise and pretend a lot of all-time greats never played a game before 1993:

1. Lidstrom
2. Jagr
3. Lemieux
4. Sakic
5. Forsberg
6. Pronger
7. Bourque
8. Crosby
9. Ovechkin
10. Chelios
11. Fedorov
12. Lindros
13. Selanne
14. Thornton
15. Iginla
16. Niedermayer
17. Sundin
18. Blake
19. Recchi
20. Modano
21. Chara
22. Shanahan
23. Alfredsson
24. Bure
25. Stevens

If I could include goalies, I would put Hasek 1st, and Roy and Brodeur after Sakic and before Forsberg. (Yes, I think Roy did enough post-1992 to be better than Brodeur, regular season compiling/counting stats don't do it for me like they do for you, Mr. "I think Gonchar, Kovalchuk, Zubov and Hull are among the top-15 players since 1993") Also, Belfour behind Iginla.

Now that I'm participating, I have to ask you and others:

- Yzerman 5th, 7th, 17th, 23rd? The 1992-93 season was his last as an elite scorer.
- Stevens 11th, 17th, 20th? I could barely find room for the guy.

- Gretzky did get a scoring title, but he was just a point compiler by then. There's no room for him near the bottom when guys like Alfredsson and Shanahan who were difference-makers for years are there.
- Kovalchuk, Heatley, Malkin, Stamkos - that's just silly at this point.
what you say about gretzky vs. alfredsson and shanahan (difference-makers) is exactly what i would argue for yzerman and stevens. those guys made a huge difference in multiple cup runs.

but then my list seems to value playoff performance and peak over regular season consistency and having most of your career overlap with the timeframe given (hence stevens over bourque for playoffs vs. regular season; roy over brodeur for peak vs. more seasons).

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Old
11-06-2010, 04:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wait, did you not even have Bourque on your list? ROFL. I'm curious, which players have more than 6 postseason all-star teams since 1993? there must be about 25 of them...

That's fine that you think Selanne was more valuable to the Ducks than Pronger. You keep on thinking that, and everyone else will keep not agreeing with you.

My list? I guess I'm bored enough to take a stab at this Selanne tire-pumping exercise and pretend a lot of all-time greats never played a game before 1993:

1. Lidstrom
2. Jagr
3. Lemieux
4. Sakic
5. Forsberg
6. Pronger
7. Bourque
8. Crosby
9. Ovechkin
10. Chelios
11. Fedorov
12. Lindros
13. Selanne
14. Thornton
15. Iginla
16. Niedermayer
17. Sundin
18. Blake
19. Recchi
20. Modano
21. Chara
22. Shanahan
23. Alfredsson
24. Bure
25. Stevens

If I could include goalies, I would put Hasek 1st, and Roy and Brodeur after Sakic and before Forsberg. (Yes, I think Roy did enough post-1992 to be better than Brodeur, regular season compiling/counting stats don't do it for me like they do for you, Mr. "I think Gonchar, Kovalchuk, Zubov and Hull are among the top-15 players since 1993") Also, Belfour behind Iginla.

Now that I'm participating, I have to ask you and others:

- Yzerman 5th, 7th, 17th, 23rd? The 1992-93 season was his last as an elite scorer.
- Stevens 11th, 17th, 20th? I could barely find room for the guy.
- Gretzky did get a scoring title, but he was just a point compiler by then. There's no room for him near the bottom when guys like Alfredsson and Shanahan who were difference-makers for years are there.
- Kovalchuk, Heatley, Malkin, Stamkos - that's just silly at this point.
Wait, did you not even have Yzerman on your list? ROFL. I'm curious, which players have more than 3 Stanley Cups as captain, a Selke, Conn Smythe since 1993? there must be about 25 of them...

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Old
11-06-2010, 04:17 PM
  #58
seventieslord
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Wait, did you not even have Yzerman on your list? ROFL. I'm curious, which players have more than 3 Stanley Cups as captain, a Selke, Conn Smythe since 1993? there must be about 25 of them...
Yeah, and a 4th and 10th in points and one postseason all-star team. Forgive me for not calling Yzerman some legendary all-time great when four of his five best offensive seasons are cut off.

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11-06-2010, 04:19 PM
  #59
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Yeah, and a 4th and 10th in points and one postseason all-star team. Forgive me for not calling Yzerman some legendary all-time great when four of his five best offensive seasons are cut off.
But its ok that four of Bourque's five best offensive seasons are cut off as well as 4/5 of his Norris trophies and then make fun of someone for leaving him out?

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11-06-2010, 04:32 PM
  #60
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But its ok that four of Bourque's five best offensive seasons are cut off as well as 4/5 of his Norris trophies and then make fun of someone for leaving him out?
are you really trying to put a guy with six all-star selections down to the same level as a guy with one in the same time frame? Or just being facetious?

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11-06-2010, 06:21 PM
  #61
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are you really trying to put a guy with six all-star selections down to the same level as a guy with one in the same time frame? Or just being facetious?
So your reason to put Shanahan, Sundin, Recchi and Modano in there....?

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11-06-2010, 06:24 PM
  #62
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So your reason to put Shanahan, Sundin, Recchi and Modano in there....?
Yeah, I'd have to say that most people would take post-1993 Yzerman over Shanahan of the same time frame. They played together for much of this time frame, and it's quite obvious who the star on the Wings was, and who was the support player.

People should be a little less hostile towards individual omissions in lists like this though - it's tough putting these things together!

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11-06-2010, 06:26 PM
  #63
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are you really trying to put a guy with six all-star selections down to the same level as a guy with one in the same time frame? Or just being facetious?
It's a lot harder to get them at center. There's 2 v. 4 spots and more competition.

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11-06-2010, 06:57 PM
  #64
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My list? I guess I'm bored enough to take a stab at this Selanne tire-pumping exercise and pretend a lot of all-time greats never played a game before 1993:



Pronger was with the ducks barely more than one season... vs Selanne who played most of his career there. I think a lot of Ducks fans would agree he is the most important Duck in the history of the team.


you're probably right about Bourque tho... if you compare him to another Veteran D-man in Paul Coffee during the same period, Borque is just leaps and bounds ahead of him- it's amazing Bourque could play to that level all the way up until the end... same could be said of Selanne though

maybe i'll switch out Gonchar for Bourque on my list.

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11-06-2010, 07:01 PM
  #65
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It's a lot harder to get them at center. There's 2 v. 4 spots and more competition.
There are 30 NHL Teams, if we say there are 4 Forward Lines and 3 Pairs of Defensemen per Team that gives us 120 Centers and 180 Defensemen in the NHL.

120/2 = 60
180/3 = 60

Using this logic, the only All-Star Team selection that is easier for defensemen to get is the last spot on the 2nd Team...

All but 2 of Bourque's 6 selections were 1st Team, and for both of his 2nd Team selections he finished 3rd in voting. Looks like the previous comparison holds up after all.

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11-06-2010, 07:01 PM
  #66
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I think Forsberg was a better player in the regular season as well. He has a Hart and Art Ross, and was widely considered the best forward in the game for a couple years there. Arguably better offensively than Selanne, but clearly better at every other facet of the game. His inability to stay healthy obviously hurts him though. I could see giving Selanne the edge there. But the playoffs put Forsberg well over the top for me.
Couple of years as best player?

I see one season where he split votes with the great Markus Naaslund...

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11-06-2010, 07:11 PM
  #67
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There are 30 NHL Teams, if we say there are 4 Forward Lines and 3 Pairs of Defensemen per Team that gives us 120 Centers and 180 Defensemen in the NHL.

120/2 = 60
180/3 = 60

Using this logic, the only All-Star Team selection that is easier for defensemen to get is the last spot on the 2nd Team...

All but 2 of Bourque's 6 selections were 1st Team, and for both of his 2nd Team selections he finished 3rd in voting. Looks like the previous comparison holds up after all.
Flawed logic. There werent 30 teams in the NHL until 2000 plus not all defenseman has an equal shot at getting votes into an AST.

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11-06-2010, 07:12 PM
  #68
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Couple of years as best player?

I see one season where he split votes with the great Markus Naaslund...
Who was one of the best players for a couple of years. What's your point?

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11-06-2010, 07:14 PM
  #69
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This thread should probably be demoted to NHL talk.

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11-06-2010, 07:36 PM
  #70
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drunk

edit. where the heck is the "delete post" option

edit2. Yzerman really is way too high


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11-06-2010, 07:39 PM
  #71
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This thread should probably be demoted to NHL talk.
yeah because other gems of threads such as "sell Bobby Clarke to me" should stay in this forum as well...

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11-06-2010, 08:10 PM
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drunk

edit. where the heck is the "delete post" option

edit2. Yzerman really is way too high
Has anyone ever gotten a reason as to why hfboards got rid of the "delete post" feature? I used to use it a lot.

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11-06-2010, 08:16 PM
  #73
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So your reason to put Shanahan, Sundin, Recchi and Modano in there....?
I'd take Yzerman over these guys during that time frame in a heartbeat.

"Its not even close"

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11-06-2010, 08:29 PM
  #74
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People should be a little less hostile towards individual omissions in lists like this though - it's tough putting these things together!
Very much so agree.

Its very easy to overlook a player by mistake or to not be educated about stuff that happened a decade or even decades ago.

Which is why I had to point out the hypocrisy. We all make mistakes but some people think they don't.

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11-06-2010, 10:41 PM
  #75
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So your reason to put Shanahan, Sundin, Recchi and Modano in there....?
All of them had their best seasons post-1992 with the exception of Recchi, who was still a top-20 scorer too many times for me to ignore. Yzerman had one great offensive season post-1992.

Quote:
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Pronger was with the ducks barely more than one season... vs Selanne who played most of his career there. I think a lot of Ducks fans would agree he is the most important Duck in the history of the team.
Yeah, sure. But you said this: was Selanne more important to the Ducks than Pronger was in the time they played together in Anaheim up until they won the cup? 100% most defintiely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
There are 30 NHL Teams, if we say there are 4 Forward Lines and 3 Pairs of Defensemen per Team that gives us 120 Centers and 180 Defensemen in the NHL.

120/2 = 60
180/3 = 60

Using this logic, the only All-Star Team selection that is easier for defensemen to get is the last spot on the 2nd Team...

All but 2 of Bourque's 6 selections were 1st Team, and for both of his 2nd Team selections he finished 3rd in voting. Looks like the previous comparison holds up after all.
Thank you for addressing that.

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Flawed logic. There werent 30 teams in the NHL until 2000 plus not all defenseman has an equal shot at getting votes into an AST.
nor do all centers. And unless my math skills fail me, the hypothetical probabilities of getting on the all-star team as a center and as a defenseman would rise proportionally with the size of the league.

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