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Old
11-04-2010, 03:10 PM
  #26
Zip15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Force951 View Post
Perry actually carried the team for a while last year when Getzlaf was out of form from offseason surgery. He also played very well when Getzlaf was out, so i think Perry would put up similar numbers without Getzlaf.

I will take a guy who puts up 30-45-75 over a guy putting up 34-25-59 when the guy with more points is cheaper, better defensively, and brings more to the table. BTW those are their averages over the last 2 years.

Their values player wise might be close, but i would take Perry straight up over Vanek and judging by this thread most fans of other teams would too. Perry brings a ton of intangibles to the table and all for an almost 2 mill less cap hit.
This is what can be maddening about these boards. I have said time and again that Perry has more value than Vanek. That much is not in dispute, yet half of these posts are about the relative values of Vanek and Perry. Those posts ignore that the Ducks would be getting a young, top-4, puck-moving defenseman on a cheap contract, who'll still be RFA after this season. That has value, and increased value for a team who claims they're in need of such. You're also moving Blake's contract and cap hit so that you can allocate those resources elsewhere. That has value.

Whether the value of acquiring Sekera and dealing Blake's contract bridge the gap in value between Perry and Vanek is debatable. But most are analyzing this trade as if it's Vanek-for-Perry, straight-up, and it's more than that. Any analysis of this as just Vanek-for-Perry is incomplete, IMO.

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Old
11-04-2010, 03:25 PM
  #27
Force951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
This is what can be maddening about these boards. I have said time and again that Perry has more value than Vanek. That much is not in dispute, yet half of these posts are about the relative values of Vanek and Perry. Those posts ignore that the Ducks would be getting a young, top-4, puck-moving defenseman on a cheap contract, who'll still be RFA after this season. That has value, and increased value for a team who claims they're in need of such. You're also moving Blake's contract and cap hit so that you can allocate those resources elsewhere. That has value.

Whether the value of acquiring Sekera and dealing Blake's contract bridge the gap in value between Perry and Vanek is debatable. But most are analyzing this trade as if it's Vanek-for-Perry, straight-up, and it's more than that. Any analysis of this as just Vanek-for-Perry is incomplete, IMO.
And your ignoring the fact that Vanek is on a bad contract as well. Blake is overpaid by about 2 mill cap hit. But Vanek is over paid by 2 mill cap hit. So in actuality there is nothing gained. We lose a top 6 forward and a top 9 forward, while we don't have much in the system ready to replace them. Instead we bring in a top 4 defender, when if we needed it Sbisa could step into that role, or we could wait for Sutton to come back. Mara and Lilja are the only defensemen not signed for next year and they won't be hard to replace. Syvret/Festerling/Mitera/Clark/Newton are all going to be chomping at the bit to get the 1 open spot with Sbisa taking the other. Thats not even counting Vatanen or Gardiner who could come in and impress to take the other spot.


Last edited by Force951: 11-04-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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Old
11-04-2010, 03:30 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
I think Vanek is a better player than Perry. I doubt the Sabres would do it.
It is mind boggling how someone can think this

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Old
11-04-2010, 04:04 PM
  #29
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I don't see why the Ducks would do this.

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Old
11-04-2010, 04:07 PM
  #30
Zip15
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Originally Posted by Force951 View Post
And your ignoring the fact that Vanek is on a bad contract as well. Blake is overpaid by about 2 mill cap hit. But Vanek is over paid by 2 mill cap hit. So in actuality there is nothing gained. We lose a top 6 forward and a top 9 forward, while we don't have much in the system ready to replace them. Instead we bring in a top 4 defender, when if we needed it Sbisa could step into that role, or we could wait for Sutton to come back. Mara and Lilja are the only defensemen not signed for next year and they won't be hard to replace. Syvret/Festerling/Mitera/Clark/Newton are all going to be chomping at the bit to get the 1 open spot with Sbisa taking the other. Thats not even counting Vatanen or Gardiner who could come in and impress to take the other spot.
Sbisa is going to step into a top-4 role? As a rookie? So, you're going to rely on two rookies in your top-4? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, or, at the very least, a lot of inconsistent play. It now sounds like you're arguing that a top-4 defender isn't really a need at all. Based on the past few weeks, it seems like much of your fanbase disagrees with your assessment.

Vanek's cap hit is irrelevant to a team nowhere near the cap ceiling like the Ducks. Real dollars are far more important, and though $6.4 mil is an overpayment by no more than $1 mil, it shouldn't be a deal-breaker, especially when you're getting a top-4 defender making peanuts, relatively speaking. And Vanek is probably close to 40 goals/season with Getzlaf centering him, while, whether you want to admit it or not, Perry's numbers probably take a little hit by coming to Buffalo.

I'm not trying to convince you of the merits of the deal, because, clearly, you've already made up your mind. But the value is not that far off in the OP.

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Old
11-04-2010, 04:26 PM
  #31
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Sbisa is going to step into a top-4 role? As a rookie? So, you're going to rely on two rookies in your top-4? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, or, at the very least, a lot of inconsistent play. It now sounds like you're arguing that a top-4 defender isn't really a need at all. Based on the past few weeks, it seems like much of your fanbase disagrees with your assessment.
Notice how i said if we needed him to he could. I didn't say we were counting on him to do that this year. If say Mara gets injured before Sutton comes back we could have Sbisa do that for a week or so and be fine. But if you actually bothered to listen to our fanbase we have been asking for a top pairing guy not a top 4 guy. Fowler-Mara pairing plays decent enough and so just a new young partner for Fowler wouldn't be much of a help. While it would give Fowler a better partner it would also give him someone younger who couldn't teach him as much. If we got a top pairing guy depending on his experiance he could pair with Fowler for the long term, or take Lydman's place next to Visnovsky and let Lydman help Fowler out for the next couple of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Vanek's cap hit is irrelevant to a team nowhere near the cap ceiling like the Ducks. Real dollars are far more important, and though $6.4 mil is an overpayment by no more than $1 mil, it shouldn't be a deal-breaker, especially when you're getting a top-4 defender making peanuts, relatively speaking. And Vanek is probably close to 40 goals/season with Getzlaf centering him, while, whether you want to admit it or not, Perry's numbers probably take a little hit by coming to Buffalo.
And Blake only makes 3 mill so he is only overpaid by 1 mill actual dollars. But you have to remember he is going to have to be replaced in the lineup. So you have -5.375(perry)-3(Blake)+2 mill (Blake replacement)+6.4(Vanek)+1.25(Sekera)-750k(Mara). So we actually add 525k in salary this year, and get a slight upgrade on defense but a downgrade on offense. So almost a wash to get rid of the best player in the trade, change it from a 2 year overpaid contract to a 4 year overpaid contract. Where is this a good deal for the ducks again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I'm not trying to convince you of the merits of the deal, because, clearly, you've already made up your mind. But the value is not that far off in the OP.
I said in my first reply to this thread that value wise it might be close, but neither of those guys will get you Corey Perry. I could make a trade thread for Myers where i try a 5 for 1 trade to get the value right. But just because the value is right doesn't mean the other team would ever even consider it.

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Old
11-04-2010, 04:27 PM
  #32
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Don't know why people are saying Perry is better than Vanek?

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Old
11-04-2010, 04:50 PM
  #33
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Don't know why people are saying Perry is better than Vanek?
Because he is. Vanek might be a better natural goal scorer, but Perry has him beat in just about every other category.

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Old
11-04-2010, 05:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
This is what can be maddening about these boards. I have said time and again that Perry has more value than Vanek. That much is not in dispute, yet half of these posts are about the relative values of Vanek and Perry. Those posts ignore that the Ducks would be getting a young, top-4, puck-moving defenseman on a cheap contract, who'll still be RFA after this season. That has value, and increased value for a team who claims they're in need of such. You're also moving Blake's contract and cap hit so that you can allocate those resources elsewhere. That has value.

Whether the value of acquiring Sekera and dealing Blake's contract bridge the gap in value between Perry and Vanek is debatable. But most are analyzing this trade as if it's Vanek-for-Perry, straight-up, and it's more than that. Any analysis of this as just Vanek-for-Perry is incomplete, IMO.
I think Vanek's contract is what kills this deal for Anaheim. I think it's a good deal. The value is there. Both teams look like they get something out of it, which seems pretty rare when you look at most propositions. The problem arises when Murray takes one look at Vanek's contract and sees, well, a pretty massive contract. Anaheim would be giving up a very reasonable contract with Perry, which has 3 years left, and a less reasonable(*cough*overpaid*cough*) contract for Blake that has 2 years left.

Now, me? I hope Blake is gone shortly. He's not earning his paycheck. He's also only costing Anaheim 3 million for the next two years, despite the 4 mil cap hit. That makes it easier for Anaheim to swallow. The Ducks aren't worried about their cap right now. They are worried about the actual amount of money spent.

It's not the players, where I think this deal would hit a snag. It's the contracts.

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Old
11-04-2010, 05:44 PM
  #35
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No thanks. I'd like to trade away Blake but getting rid of Perry isn't an option right now.

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Old
11-04-2010, 06:56 PM
  #36
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Losing Perry hurts us more than gaining Vanek.

/thread.

No net presence.

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Old
11-04-2010, 07:02 PM
  #37
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If Vanek has anything, it's net presence. He's unreal at deflecting pucks and not giving up space.

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Old
11-04-2010, 07:46 PM
  #38
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Myers for Ryan? not sure which side needs to add. I'm sure this has been said many times.

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Old
11-04-2010, 08:03 PM
  #39
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i'd rather have vanek and sekera.

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Old
11-04-2010, 08:16 PM
  #40
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This is by no means a bad proposal or really unfair at all. I would still turn it down though. Perry and Getzlaf have chemistry and Perry is being used on our PK more and more now. I don't know Vanek's defensive capabilities (as far as playing the PK) but his upside in this trade to me is hoping that he puts up Perry numbers with Getzlaf. Maybe i'm wrong.

Losing Blake is nice, and if Sekera is playing as you say it would be great to get him.

All in all this is a trade I wouldn't do, but if I absolutely had to move Perry it would be a deal I would heavily consider.

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Old
11-04-2010, 09:14 PM
  #41
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This is by no means a bad proposal or really unfair at all. I would still turn it down though. Perry and Getzlaf have chemistry and Perry is being used on our PK more and more now. I don't know Vanek's defensive capabilities (as far as playing the PK) but his upside in this trade to me is hoping that he puts up Perry numbers with Getzlaf. Maybe i'm wrong.

Losing Blake is nice, and if Sekera is playing as you say it would be great to get him.

All in all this is a trade I wouldn't do, but if I absolutely had to move Perry it would be a deal I would heavily consider.
this all day

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Old
11-05-2010, 02:10 AM
  #42
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No thanks I'd rather keep Perry then trade him for a overrated player like Vanek.

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Old
11-05-2010, 04:32 AM
  #43
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Don't know why people are saying Perry is better than Vanek?
Look at their recent records and then Perry's playoff record compared to Vanek's

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Old
11-05-2010, 07:46 AM
  #44
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I'm almost tempted.

Ultimately though, we can't take on Vanek's contract while we have to extend Getzlaf in three years.

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11-05-2010, 09:44 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by OMG We Need Defense View Post
I'm almost tempted.

Ultimately though, we can't take on Vanek's contract while we have to extend Getzlaf in three years.

Vanek's last year of his contract would be Getzlaf's first year of extension. Their should be some cap space magic that can fit them both in.

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Old
11-05-2010, 01:03 PM
  #46
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Perry's totals have increased every year. Perry has won on every level. Perry plays on the PK. Perry is a top notch agitator. Perry has crazy intangibles.

Unfortunately the game is just about goal scoring. I'll take Perry and what he brings to the table 10x out of 10 over Vanek's sniping abilities.
Vanek is one of the best in the game at taking a beating in front of the net, perfect for playoff hockey. His playoff numbers haven't shone yet because he hasn't had a real chance to show the player he can be when he amps his game up to that level (he was our best forward by far in the Boston series but got hurt for 3 games). He's also one of the more respected players around the league for taking the kind of beating he takes, but still being a clean player. Vanek doesn't currently play on the PK, because we have so many other forwards who can, but he has done it before and hasn't looked bad. His defensive game has improved lightyears over the past few seasons.

And I really don't know what the hell "crazy intangibles" means. Is that just a term thrown in to help you win the argument? If Perry has "crazy intangibles" than so does Vanek.

I'm not saying either is better than the other, I'm basically saying Corey Perry is overrated. I know how good of a hockey player he is, but some people on here put him amongst some of the elite names in hockey today, when really he's as far from those names as Vanek.

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Old
11-05-2010, 01:05 PM
  #47
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Myers for Ryan? not sure which side needs to add. I'm sure this has been said many times.
Although Ryan would shake the dynamic of our forward group in a really good way, we need defense more than anything right now, so Myers isn't moving.

This is why Anaheim and Buffalo are bad trading partners. We both need better defense.

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Old
11-05-2010, 02:38 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by OMG We Need Defense View Post
I'm almost tempted.

Ultimately though, we can't take on Vanek's contract while we have to extend Getzlaf in three years.
Why? what do you see from this that could fix our team.

I juts dont see how this helps our team.

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Old
11-05-2010, 03:13 PM
  #49
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This is a pretty fair offer, however Ducks don't move Perry unless they have a real management/coach vs. Perry/Getzalf problem.

Right now these guys play 1 great game and are asleep the next. Perry takes some really obvious penalties at bad times. I don't think the ducks are close to moving either guy, but if we're out of the playoffs by Christmas I expect Bob to begin shopping them to save the season.

2 seasons in a row out of playoffs probably means both Murray and Carlyle are looking for new jobs.

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Old
11-05-2010, 04:27 PM
  #50
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Vanek's last year of his contract would be Getzlaf's first year of extension. Their should be some cap space magic that can fit them both in.
However, it still might factor into what Getzlaf is asking for.

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Why? what do you see from this that could fix our team.

I juts dont see how this helps our team.
Vanek may not be the complete player that Perry is, but I believe he'd be able to regain his form and put up 2006/7esque numbers alongside Getzlaf (Or we could even use Beleskey-Getzlaf-Ryan, Vanek-Koivu-Selanne). I consider this a somewhat lateral move, although I don't consider it likely to happen simply because of the money tied up in Vanek.

Blake for Sekera intrigues me. We're sending, for the lack of a better term, a salary dump to Buffalo and getting a very solid defenseman back. Visnovsky-Lydman, Sutton-Sekera, and Fowler-Mara looks nice to me. While I don't know that much about Sekera, I know that some Sabres fans have been happy with the way he's performed thus far.

All in all though, like I've though all along, our defense is satisfactory now. And Blake actually looks good again on the Masterson line. Perry and RPG are actually working now that there's an effort. So, I'd end up turning this down.

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