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R.J. Umberger signs with Flyers

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Old
06-15-2004, 01:15 AM
  #26
Dave Carlson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazmin
What have you got to lose? Well nothing.

The only problem is that in todays NHL, contracts in the millions shouldn't be offered to teenagers. It's just another precedent for other players to follow in order to get what they want. It's not right.
actually, he must be what, 21, 22? just semantics though.

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06-15-2004, 05:03 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObeySteve
Please, name me one player in recent NHL history that settled for drastically less money that several franchises were offering for the simple fact that it was the city they were from.
But I think HBW is more perplexed by the apparent non response from R.J, particularly after citing the Penguins as a team he'd like to play for.


Last edited by clefty: 06-15-2004 at 05:19 AM.
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06-15-2004, 05:57 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObeySteve
Please, name me one player in recent NHL history that settled for drastically less money that several franchises were offering for the simple fact that it was the city they were from.
Kariya went to Colorado for a lot less than his market value to play for a team he wanted to and to play with Teemu. I cant remember exactly which players were invvolved but I know in Detroit players have sacrificed salary so that the club could bring in new guys (maybe Robitaille or Hull).

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06-15-2004, 06:11 AM
  #29
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Whether or not Umberger is an arrogant, money whoring bust or not, it is hard to fault Clarke on this one.

If the guy is out of condition, a bad locker room presence, or just plain sucks, he goes to the minors and gets paid minor figures till he either sorts himself out or holds out. If he holds out, so what?? Flyers don't pay him and he can rot in hell. We gave up NOTHING for this guy, so can't lose anything.

Regarding the non sign with the Pens, i can see him is agent saying "Hold on here... the Pens may not even BE IN Pitsberg in 3 years..." He probably realises though he may not get the ice time, Philly is a pretty good place for his development and can establish himself in a pretty secure market.

People get too caught up with money in signings. Even if he's an bust, the Flyers lose nothing. Great signing, worth a risk even if there was one.

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06-15-2004, 07:43 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers_UK
Whether or not Umberger is an arrogant, money whoring bust or not, it is hard to fault Clarke on this one.

If the guy is out of condition, a bad locker room presence, or just plain sucks, he goes to the minors and gets paid minor figures till he either sorts himself out or holds out. If he holds out, so what?? Flyers don't pay him and he can rot in hell. We gave up NOTHING for this guy, so can't lose anything.

Regarding the non sign with the Pens, i can see him is agent saying "Hold on here... the Pens may not even BE IN Pitsberg in 3 years..." He probably realises though he may not get the ice time, Philly is a pretty good place for his development and can establish himself in a pretty secure market.

People get too caught up with money in signings. Even if he's an bust, the Flyers lose nothing. Great signing, worth a risk even if there was one.
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I've not read, nor heard anything about a two way contract.

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06-15-2004, 08:19 AM
  #31
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Although i am not 100% sure of a 2 way contract because he was FA, this is certainly the norm (and possibly a requirement) of all rookie contracts. Philly.com has now quoted Clarke as denying the signing:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sp...key/8925040.htm

I wouldn't put too much faith in either Moran or Clarke on this though, and am informed that Umberger has confirmed the signing himself and mentioned he would likely start the season on an AHL roster.

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06-15-2004, 08:52 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazmin
The only problem is that in todays NHL, contracts in the millions shouldn't be offered to teenagers. .
isnt Umberger 22...

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Old
06-15-2004, 10:19 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I've not read, nor heard anything about a two way contract.
ALL entry level contracts MUST be two-way as far as I know.

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Old
06-15-2004, 01:27 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
Kariya went to Colorado for a lot less than his market value to play for a team he wanted to and to play with Teemu. I cant remember exactly which players were invvolved but I know in Detroit players have sacrificed salary so that the club could bring in new guys (maybe Robitaille or Hull).
Kariya signed that deal, at least in part, so that he could become an early UFA. Not the best example to cite.

Quote:
Whether or not Umberger is an arrogant, money whoring bust or not, it is hard to fault Clarke on this one.

If the guy is out of condition, a bad locker room presence, or just plain sucks, he goes to the minors and gets paid minor figures till he either sorts himself out or holds out. If he holds out, so what?? Flyers don't pay him and he can rot in hell. We gave up NOTHING for this guy, so can't lose anything.

Regarding the non sign with the Pens, i can see him is agent saying "Hold on here... the Pens may not even BE IN Pitsberg in 3 years..." He probably realises though he may not get the ice time, Philly is a pretty good place for his development and can establish himself in a pretty secure market.

People get too caught up with money in signings. Even if he's an bust, the Flyers lose nothing. Great signing, worth a risk even if there was one.
I've seen Pittsburg and even Pittsberg, but Pitsberg?

Forget about him signing with the Penguins, what about Columbus? Great fan base, lotta future stars, gonna be around for a long time, but not too much depth and plenty of room for a young centerman to come in. Or even the Rangers.. He could step into that club and be the #2 centerman right off the bat.

But he didn't make his decision based on that. He didn't even do it based on money, really. It was more about bragging rights. The amount of money he COULD get. But in the long run, he makes out, because in two years his qualifying offer with the Flyers will be higher than if he opted to sign with Pittsburgh or Columbus. And that's just a higher likelyhood of him reaching UFA status yet again.

I don't think many people are faulting the Flyers here. It's pretty much a no risk deal for them, they have absolutely no obligations to pay him his money even IF he plays well enough to earn a job in the NHL.


Last edited by Jacob: 06-15-2004 at 01:32 PM.
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Old
06-15-2004, 02:36 PM
  #35
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what a bitter group of posters in this thread.
1. vancouver thought he was good enough to make their #1 draft choice, but didn't want to give him a contract as such. boohoo.
2. nyr didn't sign him, why would any young player with promise go to nyr? circus inside a circus wrapped in a big joke = rangers. boohoo.
3. pittsburgh couldn't sign a hometown boy. maybe he wants to play for a franchise thats not on the edge of being contracted or sold and moved. boohoo.
4 toronto couldn't sigh a young talent when competing against another nhl team or the girl scouts. boohoo.
5. philly gets an unproven talent for the rookie average for 1rst rounders on a 2-way contract. yipee skipee for them, they're taking a risk. if he goes big, great move, if he busts, he'll have spent most of his time in the ahl (he's cheap at that pay scale).

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Old
06-15-2004, 02:42 PM
  #36
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I think all rookie contracts are 2-way only if they are under 25 or 26, which Umberger is so its a moot point.

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06-15-2004, 03:17 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Kariya signed that deal, at least in part, so that he could become an early UFA. Not the best example to cite.
wasnt he a UFA signed by the Avs? If not how come he changed teams without going through waivers or via trade? He could have gotten more money if he had signed in say New York or Toronto but CHOSE to take less money and play for a team he felt was a contender and to play with Teemu.

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06-15-2004, 03:46 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
wasnt he a UFA signed by the Avs? If not how come he changed teams without going through waivers or via trade? He could have gotten more money if he had signed in say New York or Toronto but CHOSE to take less money and play for a team he felt was a contender and to play with Teemu.
He was a UFA last year because the Ducks did not give him a qualifying offer.

He would be an RFA this summer had he signed a larger contract but instead took less to ensure he would be making less than the league average which would then ensure he would be UFA this summer as a group V free agent (10 years pro, making under the league average.)

Smart move but don't confuse his motives. He definitely took less last season to make himself an UFA again this summer.


Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher: 06-15-2004 at 03:51 PM.
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06-15-2004, 03:53 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful
Pittsburgh offered what Vancouver offered him. Which, in his hometown should have been enough you'd think.

The Penguins never got a reponse.

Classy.
Is that from an article or something?

I gotta tell you, it seems highly unlikely to me that the Pens would offer this much AND it seems unlikely Umberger would turn it down. He had every reason to sign in Pittsburgh.

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06-15-2004, 03:55 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
wasnt he a UFA signed by the Avs? If not how come he changed teams without going through waivers or via trade? He could have gotten more money if he had signed in say New York or Toronto but CHOSE to take less money and play for a team he felt was a contender and to play with Teemu.
Kariya is an ungrateful, greedy wuss.

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Old
06-15-2004, 03:58 PM
  #41
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All rookie contracts ARE NOT two way.

The contract that Van Ryn signed with the Blues after it was ruled he was a free agent was a one way contract.

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06-15-2004, 04:15 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
All rookie contracts ARE NOT two way.

The contract that Van Ryn signed with the Blues after it was ruled he was a free agent was a one way contract.
Do you have proof? That would seem to contradict the CBA...

"9.4. Minor League Compensation. Each Player Contract entered
into with a Rookie in the Entry Level System shall automatically
be deemed to be a "two way" contract with a minor league salary
equal to the minor league salary set forth in such Player
Contract or, if no minor league salary is set forth, the greater
of (i) $25,000 and (ii) the minimum minor league salary provided
for players in the Minors; provided, however, in no event may
such a Player Contract provide for minor league Compensation,
including any bonuses for games played, greater than 50% of the
NHL Minimum Compensation. The maximum Compensation payable to a
Group I Player who is playing in the Major Juniors shall be
$7,500 for players drafted in the 1995, 1996 and 1997 Entry
Drafts and $8,500 for players drafted in the 1998, 1999 and 2000
Entry Drafts."

http://letsgopens.com/nhl_cba.php?id=9

As far as I understand if he'd have to be 25 or older to not fit into the entry level system.

"9.1. Applicability and Duration. Effective with contracts
entered into after the date of the 1995 Entry Draft:

(a) No Club may enter into a Player Contract with a Rookie
(excluding a player who is age 25 or older) that provides for
Compensation in excess of that permitted by this Article."

Care to prove this information wrong?

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Old
06-15-2004, 04:34 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Do you have proof? That would seem to contradict the CBA...

Care to prove this information wrong?
Stich's sentence was half-assed, so I'm not even sure of what he really meant but you are 100% correct.

Van Ryn's case probably does not fall under rookie status.

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Old
06-15-2004, 05:47 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObeySteve
Please, name me one player in recent NHL history that settled for drastically less money that several franchises were offering for the simple fact that it was the city they were from.
Joe Nieuwendyk?

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Old
06-15-2004, 07:19 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
"9.4. Minor League Compensation. Each Player Contract entered into with a Rookie in the Entry Level System shall automatically be deemed to be a "two way" contract
I think the part I highlighted is key. Umberger isn't in the Entry Level System any more, he's a complete UFA.

Just a guess though. It doesn't make sense to say "You're an Unrestricted Free Agent" by our rules, followed by "And here are the restrictions..."

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Old
06-16-2004, 03:31 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh
Can anyone give a good talent evaluation of him?

I've read everything from 30-goal scorer to complete bust.
Coming back to this...

I saw him play with Ohio State many times in the CCHA. Basically, he's a total crapshoot right now. He has great size and decent speed, along with excellent puck skills and offensive awareness. BUT (and this is a big one), he tends to disappear when the play gets physical. He needs to learn to use his body more and find the will to fight through tight checking to have future as a pro. JMO.

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