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Carter close to signing 10-year deal (post #441 and #675); Leino update (# 675)

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11-12-2010, 11:11 AM
  #601
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OK it seems the last 2 and a half pages of this thread are just rehashed posts, over and over and over again.

Id love to see last night's Carter show up more often. He's had a solid start to the season, I hope he can be more consistant from years past and play well. But this team doesnt NEED him to be. They have insane depth at foward, all 4 lines are creating scoring chances, defence has been tight and the goalie has been in another universe. The coach is making great calls, has the team motivated (and even after playing well, still unhappy ), I dont think Jeff Carter is much of an issue at all. Do we lock him up RIGHT NOW? No. Id like to see what he does over the season. If he threatens 50 goals again and plays the game like he did last night, go right ahead. He was dominant, especially in the second. I don't want to hate anyone on this team. I got on the hate train after the finals, but this is a new year. Giving him another chance. But if he relapses into the old Carter we've seen, why not trade him.


BTW, stats are stats, they NEVER tell the whole story, on either side of this argument. and no 2 players are alike, so comparing Carter to every player in the league is a bit ridiculous.

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11-12-2010, 11:12 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Believe me, I hope all you guys are right, and I'm waaaay offbase. I understand all your counterpoints But I just don't see how his extension comes in anywhere near a 6m hit.
You miss out on the stupidity that was the Kovalchuk summer? He wasn't getting a high cap hit from ANYONE.

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11-12-2010, 11:14 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
OK it seems the last 2 and a half pages of this thread are just rehashed posts, over and over and over again.

Id love to see last night's Carter show up more often. He's had a solid start to the season, I hope he can be more consistant from years past and play well. But this team doesnt NEED him to be. They have insane depth at foward, all 4 lines are creating scoring chances, defence has been tight and the goalie has been in another universe. The coach is making great calls, has the team motivated (and even after playing well, still unhappy ), I dont think Jeff Carter is much of an issue at all. Do we lock him up RIGHT NOW? No. Id like to see what he does over the season. If he threatens 50 goals again and plays the game like he did last night, go right ahead. He was dominant, especially in the second. I don't want to hate anyone on this team. I got on the hate train after the finals, but this is a new year. Giving him another chance. But if he relapses into the old Carter we've seen, why not trade him.


BTW, stats are stats, they NEVER tell the whole story, on either side of this argument. and no 2 players are alike, so comparing Carter to every player in the league is a bit ridiculous.
That's how the contracts get decided, however.

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11-12-2010, 11:15 AM
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Believe me, I hope all you guys are right, and I'm waaaay offbase. I understand all your counterpoints But I just don't see how his extension comes in anywhere near a 6m hit.
And of course his agent will try to use those comparables regardless, but the other thing to remember about those examples is they aren't exactly cap-strapped teams.

I do think it's a lot of wishful thinking to get to that 6m cap hit, especially when we're talking about Homer negotiating here. I'd say in this NHL he's likely worth more, but of course we want him cheaply to keep as much of the current offense intact as possible.

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11-12-2010, 11:15 AM
  #605
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Where did I say he was a perennial 40-goal scorer? He's a perennial 30-goal scorer who plays solid but not spectacular defense, with the potential to hit 40+ in his better years.

Again, you're throwing out generalities. Show me where this match is for a Carter deal. Do you really want to ship him to Edmonton for Penner and a pick? Anaheim isn't giving you Bobby Ryan. The problem is that, just as is so often the case, Carter is worth more to the Flyers than he is to other teams. You can't just say you're getting "something of value back." You have to have a match to make a deal and it has to be before next season starts or you're letting him walk as a UFA and getting nothing but cap space.
What I am saying is giving out these contracts like candy is eventually going to catch up with Homer, let the season ride out and decide what to do from there, be patient. The claims about him is that he is a ppg scorer, which means he has to score 40 goals to meet that criteria because he will never get more assts than goals. My concerns are:a) do not overpay him b) do not give him a NTC/NMC c) do not give him more than 5yrs.

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11-12-2010, 11:19 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by JojoTheWhale View Post
If we're talking something like 7/70, and you could certainly be right, then it's probably going to mean Leino has no place, or Carle is moved. I can't say I'd be a big fan of either of those scenarios.
If you lose Leino and Carle this team is not as good.

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11-12-2010, 11:20 AM
  #607
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You miss out on the stupidity that was the Kovalchuk summer? He wasn't getting a high cap hit from ANYONE.
That's only because Homer didn't get involved.

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11-12-2010, 11:21 AM
  #608
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I think Carle is gone this summer. Do not see any other way they can do all this and they have replacements.

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11-12-2010, 11:22 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
What I am saying is giving out these contracts like candy is eventually going to catch up with Homer, let the season ride out and decide what to do from there, be patient. The claims about him is that he is a ppg scorer, which means he has to score 40 goals to meet that criteria because he will never get more assts than goals. My concerns are:a) do not overpay him b) do not give him a NTC/NMC c) do not give him more than 5yrs.
Who. Start quoting people.

All I see is people criticizing Carter for NOT being a PPG scorer. Personally, I think it's going to be very difficult for Carter to be a PPG player because he isn't an assist man (which you need to be in order to score at a PPG pace). He is, however, someone that can pot the goals... which a lot of PPG guys aren't necessarily as proficient at.

4 of the top 10 scorers in the NHL last year had <30 goals. 6 of the top 10 had <40 goals.

8 of the top 20 in the NHL had <30 goals, and 13 of the top 20 had <40 goals.

There isn't a single guy in the 20-30 range that scored 30 goals last year.


In comparison, 9 of the top 20 goal scorers had less than a PPG... and 15 of the top 30 had <PPG.

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11-12-2010, 11:24 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
That's only because Homer didn't get involved.
While signing someone internally sets up the scenario where you bid against yourself... I have to hope all of that sent a clear message that these monster cap hits just aren't out there to be had. Now, to be perfectly frank, I would much prefer Carter on my team than Kovalchuk (great scorer, but doesn't bring much else to the table).

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11-12-2010, 11:25 AM
  #611
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I think Carle is gone this summer. Do not see any other way they can do all this and they have replacements.
They have a proven top pairing d-man under contract who had 6-29-35pts last season and Homer has committed to building from the defense out. They finally have a goalie who they seem to be able to build out from and to accommodate another forward the idea is to go back and weaken the d-fense? I don't get it.

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11-12-2010, 11:29 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
They have a proven top pairing d-man under contract who had 6-29-35pts last season and Homer has committed to building from the defense out. They finally have a goalie who they seem to be able to build out from and to accommodate another forward the idea is to go back and weaken the d-fense? I don't get it.
You think spending $4M on a 3rd pairing D is an appropriate use of resources?

And, no, Carle isn't a "proven top pairing d-man." He's a "proven he can play with one of the best d-men in the world" d-man. Carle has improved a bit since he got here, but if you went out and rocked a top pairing of him minus a world class D, you'd be in for a world of hurt.

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11-12-2010, 11:30 AM
  #613
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I see 6.5

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11-12-2010, 11:31 AM
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
They have a proven top pairing d-man under contract who had 6-29-35pts last season and Homer has committed to building from the defense out. They finally have a goalie who they seem to be able to build out from and to accommodate another forward the idea is to go back and weaken the d-fense? I don't get it.
Jumping said it above. They have replacements. Erik Gustafsson looks quite poised to make the jump soon. Put him with Timonen, Coburn with Pronger, and O'Donnell with Meszaros again. Still a fine D corps.

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11-12-2010, 11:32 AM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That's how the contracts get decided, however.
which is still ridiculous, IMO

Jeff Carter should be paid on what Jeff Carter does, not Dany Heatly, or whoever else's names ive seen dropped.

And people shouldnt argue how good or bad he is, on here, based on the same thing. Don't care how his numbers compare to everyone else. There's so many untracked variables that create those numbers. Injuries, scoring depth, etc. If Carter puts up 40 goals and 85+ points, on this roster, he deserves a big deal. Im expecting 30-35 and 70-75 points, this team is deep and anyone can score at anytime. He doesnt need to be relied on right now. He seems to have been refining his game a little bit, and he has looked good. But I wanna see where he is around the trade deadline before I form a solid opinion on anything.

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11-12-2010, 11:33 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You think spending $4M on a 3rd pairing D is an appropriate use of resources?

And, no, Carle isn't a "proven top pairing d-man." He's a "proven he can play with one of the best d-men in the world" d-man. Carle has improved a bit since he got here, but if you went out and rocked a top pairing of him minus a world class D, you'd be in for a world of hurt.
Agreed. The Carle jersey-wearing clones of Cartsiephan sitting near me the last home game will cry a river of tears because Carle is the most easily tradeable and replaceable D-man the Flyers have.

I like Matt Carle, but your assessment above is precise.

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11-12-2010, 11:35 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
which is still ridiculous, IMO

Jeff Carter should be paid on what Jeff Carter does, not Dany Heatly, or whoever else's names ive seen dropped.

And people shouldnt argue how good or bad he is, on here, based on the same thing. Don't care how his numbers compare to everyone else. There's so many untracked variables that create those numbers. Injuries, scoring depth, etc. If Carter puts up 40 goals and 85+ points, on this roster, he deserves a big deal. Im expecting 30-35 and 70-75 points, this team is deep and anyone can score at anytime. He doesnt need to be relied on right now. He seems to have been refining his game a little bit, and he has looked good. But I wanna see where he is around the trade deadline before I form a solid opinion on anything.
How dare you reserve an opinion until later. That's sober-minded and rational talk and will get you nowhere around here!


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11-12-2010, 11:35 AM
  #618
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
which is still ridiculous, IMO

Jeff Carter should be paid on what Jeff Carter does, not Dany Heatly, or whoever else's names ive seen dropped.

And people shouldnt argue how good or bad he is, on here, based on the same thing. Don't care how his numbers compare to everyone else. There's so many untracked variables that create those numbers. Injuries, scoring depth, etc. If Carter puts up 40 goals and 85+ points, on this roster, he deserves a big deal. Im expecting 30-35 and 70-75 points, this team is deep and anyone can score at anytime. He doesnt need to be relied on right now. He seems to have been refining his game a little bit, and he has looked good. But I wanna see where he is around the trade deadline before I form a solid opinion on anything.
I mean, it's marketplace economics... don't know what to tell you. The cost of A is X, so we can get an idea of the cost of B based on a comparison in value between the two.

Jeff Carter will hit 40 goals independent of anything else going on with this team if he gets his shooting % up to the ~13% range. Whatever else you can say about him, he gets the puck on net and he has a wicked release. Some will go in, some will not... depending on what the hockey equivalent for BA is that year, he'll put up big goal totals.

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11-12-2010, 11:37 AM
  #619
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Thread Cliff Notes:

Side A: Don't sign Carter! trade him! HE SUCKS!

Side B: Not really.

Side C: Please Homer, not 7mil cap hit.

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11-12-2010, 11:37 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
Agreed. The Carle jersey-wearing clones of Cartsiephan sitting near me the last home game will cry a river of tears because Carle is the most easily tradeable and replaceable D-man the Flyers have.

I like Matt Carle, but your assessment above is precise.
It's the same deal with Coburn... however, unlike Carle, Coburn does have the physical tools to be a top pairing guy, just don't think he really has it between the ears. Playing well right now, but wouldn't have much confidence in him as a "top pairing" guy if you took away the actual top pairing guy.

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11-12-2010, 11:41 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
which is still ridiculous, IMO

Jeff Carter should be paid on what Jeff Carter does, not Dany Heatly, or whoever else's names ive seen dropped.

And people shouldnt argue how good or bad he is, on here, based on the same thing. Don't care how his numbers compare to everyone else. There's so many untracked variables that create those numbers. Injuries, scoring depth, etc. If Carter puts up 40 goals and 85+ points, on this roster, he deserves a big deal. Im expecting 30-35 and 70-75 points, this team is deep and anyone can score at anytime. He doesnt need to be relied on right now. He seems to have been refining his game a little bit, and he has looked good. But I wanna see where he is around the trade deadline before I form a solid opinion on anything.
When you're considered a top scorer on your team, aren't you naturally going to be relied upon? And we can say we don't care how his number compare to anyone, but like Jester said, the agents sure do.

Carter just doesn't score goals. He's relied upon to do everything during a game, and is considered a leader on the team. So he's expected to be paid like that. That all adds into contract talks along with his comparable numbers. As much as we might hate to do it, it's a fact of life in contract negotiations. In any sport.

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11-12-2010, 11:43 AM
  #622
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It's the same deal with Coburn... however, unlike Carle, Coburn does have the physical tools to be a top pairing guy, just don't think he really has it between the ears. Playing well right now, but wouldn't have much confidence in him as a "top pairing" guy if you took away the actual top pairing guy.
True. As long as he's playing with someone like a Timonen or Pronger, Coburn can be a #2 d-man.

I am just glad that we're seeing the "old" Coburn make a return. The #5 that started last season was scary bad.

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11-12-2010, 11:43 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
which is still ridiculous, IMO

Jeff Carter should be paid on what Jeff Carter does, not Dany Heatly, or whoever else's names ive seen dropped.

And people shouldnt argue how good or bad he is, on here, based on the same thing. Don't care how his numbers compare to everyone else. There's so many untracked variables that create those numbers. Injuries, scoring depth, etc. If Carter puts up 40 goals and 85+ points, on this roster, he deserves a big deal. Im expecting 30-35 and 70-75 points, this team is deep and anyone can score at anytime. He doesnt need to be relied on right now. He seems to have been refining his game a little bit, and he has looked good. But I wanna see where he is around the trade deadline before I form a solid opinion on anything.
That's how contracts work in the real world. You use comparables to set a baseline and then go from there.

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11-12-2010, 11:43 AM
  #624
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Just get a damn deal done and signed so the detractor focus can return to where we are trading him for mediocre pieces.

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11-12-2010, 11:44 AM
  #625
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For those of you who are *****ing, do you give 100% to your job every day? Never take an extended lunch? Do you ever show up late or sneak out early? Just wondering since you expect absolute perfection from one player so you must lead by example, right?

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