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Pavel Bure's place among NHL's all-time greatest goal scorers

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Old
11-12-2010, 02:51 PM
  #51
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Bure was amazing but top 10 all time for the greatest goal scorers really?

In no particular order here are who I would put ahead greatest scorers in the history of the NHL

These are guys that Bure can't even be compared to

Rocket Richard
Mike Bossy
Brett Hull
Bobby Hull
Mario Lemieux
Gordie Howe
Phil Esposito
Guy Lafleur

Also 2 guys who as far as history goes were considered two fo the best in their day

Howie Morenz
Cy Denneny

Wayne Gretzky
Marcel Dionne
Mike Gartner
Jaromir Jagr
Jari Kurri
Teemu Selanne

are players that have an argument for being placed ahead of Bure based on career numbers

Now I might have missed a few players because I am just going off the top of my head but the question is where does Bure place against the NHL's all time socrers not just guys who played while he did.

There is an argument that Pavel Bure is not even a top 5 goal scorer in the last 30 years. So how in the history of the NHL could he be top 10 when there are still over 60 years of players to compare him to
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Old
11-12-2010, 03:07 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
This thread gave me a great laugh. Bure played on some of the worst teams of the decade in Florida. He had no help offensively, other teams new that if they shut him down, they shut down the Panthers. Wake up and realize we cant just take simple statistics and go from those. All of these comparisons are situational based on what the players involved were dealing with.
Yes, they are situational based. Read my post up thread about the unique circumstances Bure played under. But just as he had nobody good to get him the puck, he also was given far more ice time than any other forward of the era, and was allowed to cherrypick to his heart's content while his team full of plugs did nothing but try to get him the puck.

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And regarding original 6 era players, can we please factor in that they played roughly what 40-50 mins a game.
1) No they didn't. Star forwards in the original 6 era played about 25-30 minutes a game from what I read. Original 6 teams tended to have 3 lines of forwards after World War 2.

2) Even if they did, it's irrelevant in their placements since every other star player would be in the same boat.

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11-12-2010, 03:07 PM
  #53
Starchild74
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I think you are underrating Gretzky here. He should easily be in the first category. There aren't many guys who have led the league in goal scoring 5 times. Just because age and injuries forced him to concentrate primarily on playmaking later in his career does not take away what he did earlier.
I was just putting a quick list together and was thinking of arguments people could make against the players I picked. The one that comes to mind with the second list is that it is because of there totals. It is not a definite list as I don't have the time to really sit down and make a top 10 list it was more to just give an example of naming players off the top of my head that are or could be argued to be better then Bure.

To show how absurd it is to make a statement that Bure is top 5 of all time or top 10 of all time

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11-12-2010, 03:10 PM
  #54
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I think you are underrating Gretzky here. He should easily be in the first category. There aren't many guys who have led the league in goal scoring 5 times. Just because age and injuries forced him to concentrate primarily on playmaking later in his career does not take away what he did earlier.
Agreed. Gretzky in the same category as Gartner made my eyes hurt. Gretzky was scoring more goals than Bossy when they were in the league at the same time - they should be in the same category at least.

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11-12-2010, 03:15 PM
  #55
jepjepjoo
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
And regarding original 6 era players, can we please factor in that they played roughly what 40-50 mins a game.
Funny you bring this up since Bure had the ice time of a O6 star:

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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
One thing to consider is certainly his ice time he played 26:52 per game and got 5:48 pp time per game.

Normally a first liner plays about 20-22 minutes per game so 21 minutes per game adds up to 1722 minutes.

26:52 per game adds up to 2203 per season.

(2203-1722)/21+82=104.905 which basically means that Bure had the ice time worth of 105 games of a typical first line star.
Had to quote myself in case you missed it

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Old
11-12-2010, 06:15 PM
  #56
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bure cracks top 10 easily in my books. nobody could keep up with him. he made plays out of nothing. I'd say he put the Canucks on the map.

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11-12-2010, 07:02 PM
  #57
Starchild74
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Originally Posted by beersy32 View Post
bure cracks top 10 easily in my books. nobody could keep up with him. he made plays out of nothing. I'd say he put the Canucks on the map.
He is on your top based on what?

It is easy to say a player is in the top 10 but make a list of your top 10. Is it the top 10 you have seen? Is it the top 10 of all time?

He was definately the star in Cancouver but seriously he put the Canucks on the map that is funny? When did he do this?

I am pretty sure alot of people knew about the Canucks as far as a team goes when they made the Finals in 1982.

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11-12-2010, 08:28 PM
  #58
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5VlMjeLXbw

you look up Pavel Bure, defined the hockey term "sniper". the best canuck there was, is, will ever be.

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11-12-2010, 08:42 PM
  #59
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Played in 702 games. In those 702 games, he scored 437 times and had 342 assists. In 64 playoff games, he had 35 goals and 35 assists. In 13 years in the NHL he won the Maurice "Rocket" Richard trophy twice and the Calder Memorial trophy. Ifr he didn't get injured as much as he did, he could have 800-900 points. One of the best Russian players easily.

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11-13-2010, 03:18 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beersy32 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5VlMjeLXbw

you look up Pavel Bure, defined the hockey term "sniper". the best canuck there was, is, will ever be.
Yes he can be argued as the best Canuck player ever but how did he put Vancouver on the map? He wasn't the only reason the Canucks went to the cup in 1994 and the Canucks went to the Cup in 1982 way before Bure was born and I am pretty sure that put them on the "map" so to speak

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11-13-2010, 03:26 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by beersy32 View Post
Played in 702 games. In those 702 games, he scored 437 times and had 342 assists. In 64 playoff games, he had 35 goals and 35 assists. In 13 years in the NHL he won the Maurice "Rocket" Richard trophy twice and the Calder Memorial trophy. Ifr he didn't get injured as much as he did, he could have 800-900 points. One of the best Russian players easily.
Yes that is impressive and a good career but is that bette then

10 seasons
regular season 752gp 573g 553a 1126pts
Playoffs 129gp 85g 75a 160pts

Calder Trophy
Conn Smyth
Led the league in goal scoring twice

As a matter of fact should Bure's career even be compared to that player. I would love to know who of the all time greats do you put Bure ahead of. Not a top ten becasue that can be hard and take time but who is Bure better then.

Oh Bure is definately one of the Best Russian players ever but we aren't talking Russian players we are talking NHL all time

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11-13-2010, 03:49 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beersy32 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5VlMjeLXbw

you look up Pavel Bure, defined the hockey term "sniper". the best canuck there was, is, will ever be.
I personally don't even think of Bure as a "sniper." To me, a sniper is a guy who scores lots of goals with an amazing shot. A guy like Mike Bossy, Brett Hull, Steve Stamkos. To me, Bure is more of a "breakaway artist."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Yes he can be argued as the best Canuck player ever but how did he put Vancouver on the map? He wasn't the only reason the Canucks went to the cup in 1994 and the Canucks went to the Cup in 1982 way before Bure was born and I am pretty sure that put them on the "map" so to speak
I'm just being kind of a jerk here but...

If Bure wasn't born yet in 1982, doesn't that make him less than 12 years old in 1994?

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11-13-2010, 04:41 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Selanne vs. Bure is a pretty clear case of career overcoming peak.
How? By numbers Selšnne has had both better peak (rookie season, late 90s) and better prime (pretty much all Anaheim years), and career is obvious as well. Plus all the intangibles Selšnne has, not the least of which are his pr skills. (This is another thing I think is funny, why isn't value to team organisation considered almost ever?)
As for playoffs, I still don't see how the leader of Olympic scoring can be considered a playoff underachiever. Selšnne just never had a decent team or chance when he was healthy, and in 07 he had respectable points, and the most important goal in Ducks history. (and you won't find many players who would've buried that shot)

Also, Selšnne has always been much more responsible defensively. Perhaps it wasnt noticed earlyon, and he has developed, but he never was a blueline floater like Bure. (its disgusting how people consider Bure a great player when he was in actuality purely selfish scorer)

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11-13-2010, 04:44 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Steve Stamkos

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Old
11-13-2010, 05:09 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Yes that is impressive and a good career but is that bette then

10 seasons
regular season 752gp 573g 553a 1126pts
Playoffs 129gp 85g 75a 160pts

Calder Trophy
Conn Smyth
Led the league in goal scoring twice

As a matter of fact should Bure's career even be compared to that player. I would love to know who of the all time greats do you put Bure ahead of. Not a top ten becasue that can be hard and take time but who is Bure better then.

Oh Bure is definately one of the Best Russian players ever but we aren't talking Russian players we are talking NHL all time
Yeah the problem is though there's no context regarding your rankings. By simply presenting Bossy's career stats you fail to take into account that Bossy played his whole career in most of the highest scoring seasons in history. It's ok to rank Bossy better than Bure all time, but to say it's not even close is just wrong.

Mike Bossy
Regular season adjusted stats 752gp 461g 445a 906pts

Pavel Bure
Regular season adjusted stats 702gp 463g 360a 823pts

Don't have the adjusted playoff stats unless I adjust them myself, but that would come out fairly comparable as well considering Bossy only has a 1.24 ppg average compared to 1.09 for Bure, and Bossy's playoff years were just as much more high scoring than Bure's playoff years as the regular season years, if not more so actually.

This also doesn't take into account the fact that Bossy, for 90% of his career was on the ice with Denis Potvin and Bryan Trottier. We all know who Bure mostly played with. I also find it strange that considering Bossy was on that Dynasty, and arguably their best player(Trottier), he's only a +3 in the playoffs, while Bure, the no defense cherry picker who played on average to below average teams in his playoff years, was +8.

Someone's going to try to tell me these stats don't mean as much as the raw ones, and that's just not arguable as far as im concerned.

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11-13-2010, 05:18 AM
  #66
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Also, on the subject of Brett Hull do you realize that outside of the 3 straight years he was centered by Adam Oates, a better all time playmaker in comparison to Hull as a goal scorer, he never finished in the top 10 in points or points per game? It was a given Bure would do this atleast point per game wise every single season regardless of who he played with. Oates had seasons on the same production level even the year in Boston where Neely only played 10 games, and Hull never reached that level again. Obviously, he was a really good goal scorer his whole career, but easily better than Bure? Give me a break.

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11-13-2010, 05:39 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Yeah the problem is though there's no context regarding your rankings. By simply presenting Bossy's career stats you fail to take into account that Bossy played his whole career in most of the highest scoring seasons in history. It's ok to rank Bossy better than Bure all time, but to say it's not even close is just wrong.

Mike Bossy
Regular season adjusted stats 752gp 461g 445a 906pts

Pavel Bure
Regular season adjusted stats 702gp 463g 360a 823pts

Don't have the adjusted playoff stats unless I adjust them myself, but that would come out fairly comparable as well considering Bossy only has a 1.24 ppg average compared to 1.09 for Bure, and Bossy's playoff years were just as much more high scoring than Bure's playoff years as the regular season years, if not more so actually.

This also doesn't take into account the fact that Bossy, for 90% of his career was on the ice with Denis Potvin and Bryan Trottier. We all know who Bure mostly played with. I also find it strange that considering Bossy was on that Dynasty, and arguably their best player(Trottier), he's only a +3 in the playoffs, while Bure, the no defense cherry picker who played on average to below average teams in his playoff years, was +8.

Someone's going to try to tell me these stats don't mean as much as the raw ones, and that's just not arguable as far as im concerned.
Using 8.0 GPG environment:

Best Adjusted Point Seasons
-----------------------------------
Bossy 150, 149, 128, 128, 126
Bure 137, 136, 133, 129, 118

Best Adjusted PPG Seasons
----------------------------------
Bossy 1.83, 1.82, 1.80, 1.58, 1.58
Bure 1.84, 1.74, 1.67, 1.62, 1.54

Best Adjusted Goal Seasons
------------------------------------
Bossy 81, 73, 66, 65, 64
Bure 86, 85, 77, 72, 65

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11-13-2010, 12:35 PM
  #68
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Do you disagree that Stamkos scores most of his goals with his shot?

You don't have to be an "all time great" to be talked about on this board as an example of a category of player.

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11-13-2010, 01:26 PM
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if Pavel Bure isn't a sniper than jesus doesn't exist. he could pick any corner when he took a shot. I agree that he was a breakaway artist. Nobody in Bure's career could keep up with him, period.

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11-13-2010, 01:38 PM
  #70
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In the timeframe of his career, he had the highest GPG average of all active players. That's got to be worth something great.

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11-13-2010, 02:04 PM
  #71
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In the timeframe of his career, he had the highest GPG average of all active players. That's got to be worth something great.
Lemieux.

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11-13-2010, 02:17 PM
  #72
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i think he was a really versatile forward, he could skate, stickhandle, shoot, even hit, and he created his own goals from nowhere, so it's false to say he was only this or only that

and so what if he scored a fair amount of his goals in one on one with the goalie, is it a crime to be the fastest player in the game?

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11-13-2010, 02:31 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
I am very confused by this facepalm. The poster wasn't calling Stamkos better than Bure. He was just saying Stamkos scores a lot of his goals with a great shot. Sure seems to be true from what I have seen of him.

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11-13-2010, 02:35 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Using 8.0 GPG environment:

Best Adjusted Point Seasons
-----------------------------------
Bossy 150, 149, 128, 128, 126
Bure 137, 136, 133, 129, 118

Best Adjusted PPG Seasons
----------------------------------
Bossy 1.83, 1.82, 1.80, 1.58, 1.58
Bure 1.84, 1.74, 1.67, 1.62, 1.54

Best Adjusted Goal Seasons
------------------------------------
Bossy 81, 73, 66, 65, 64
Bure 86, 85, 77, 72, 65
How do the next 5 adjusted goal seasons look?

Also, not sure why people are bringing up point totals in a thread about goal scoring (not just picking on you, several have done it)

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11-13-2010, 02:40 PM
  #75
vadim sharifijanov
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I personally don't even think of Bure as a "sniper." To me, a sniper is a guy who scores lots of goals with an amazing shot. A guy like Mike Bossy, Brett Hull, Steve Stamkos. To me, Bure is more of a "breakaway artist."
to me, that's kind of a sportscenter/youtube memory of bure's career. we all remember his many dramatic breakaway goals, but obviously he didn't score all 400 goals on breakaways.

his shot was one of the quickest, hardest, and most accurate in the league. his wrist shot was a bit behind mogilny or sakic, but it was definitely a goal scorer's shot. his slap shot also was incredible, one of the hardest in the league among forwards and definitely more potent than a lot of the hard shooting guys.

it's true, he wasn't the kind of player to always find open areas and fire one-timers like brett hull, but the way he could score from the off-wing on the rush like gaborik or ovechkin today, or the way he could tee up a slapshot on the PP if you gave him an inch of room, those are sniper goals to me.

it's hard to say that a guy who not only led the league in goals three times, but also in shots four times isn't a sniper. he shot from a lot of different places and in a lot of different situations, and although he created his own space with his speed and shiftiness, without a world class shot, you're still just maxim afinogenov.

look at some of the goals in the second half of this video. yeah, there were a lot of breakaway goals, but look how tight he is in when he roofs it on potvin, or some of those shots from beyond the hash marks... they seem like sniper-type or goal scorer's goals to me:


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