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Pavel Bure's place among NHL's all-time greatest goal scorers

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11-24-2010, 01:46 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
So twice he lead forwards in ice time, and once only by 2 seconds?
Those are the only years I looked at. He had more than 3 minutes more than any other forward in 2000-01! That's an enormous difference! Over 26 minutes per game as a forward?

In 1999-00, he only had 2 seconds more than Kariya, but he had more than a full minute more than Hart winner Joe Sakic, 4th pace, the 1st player who played on a team with any sort of depth. (Straka on top-heavy Pittsburgh was 3rd).

I think it's pretty obvious that forwards on less stacked teams get far more ice time. Patrik Elias in his prime was getting less than 20 minutes per night, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg barely see 20 minutes even today.

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In the grand scheme of things that makes a negligible difference when judging his overall scoring ability throughout his prime and career. You can't tell me this makes more of a difference than had he played regularly with some better players, minus the supposed large advantage he had in ice time?
I don't know. Like I said, Bure was in a very unique situation in Florida. He didn't have any help from teammates, but on the flip side, always being the guy on his team with the puck seemed to suit his style very well.

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11-24-2010, 01:58 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Those are the only years I looked at. He had more than 3 minutes more than any other forward in 2000-01! That's an enormous difference! Over 26 minutes per game as a forward?

In 1999-00, he only had 2 seconds more than Kariya, but he had more than a full minute more than Hart winner Joe Sakic, 4th pace, the 1st player who played on a team with any sort of depth. (Straka on top-heavy Pittsburgh was 3rd).

I think it's pretty obvious that forwards on less stacked teams get far more ice time. Patrik Elias in his prime was getting less than 20 minutes per night, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg barely see 20 minutes even today.



I don't know. Like I said, Bure was in a very unique situation in Florida. He didn't have any help from teammates, but on the flip side, always being the guy on his team with the puck seemed to suit his style very well.
I wish there were ice time stats for back in the day so we'd know for sure about the ton of ice time the old timers logged.. or even more recently a guy like Gretzky or Lemieux or Gilmour who double shifted a ton in some of their big years..

Would be very interesting to see

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11-24-2010, 02:16 PM
  #128
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I think one-dimensionality plays a role even when looking specifically at the dimension the player is good at, because skill in something doesn't necessarily equate to how much you do it. Bure scored a lot partially because he (justifiably or not) sacrificed defense and playmaking. An equally good goal scorer who choose to play more defense and playmaking is still as good at scoring goals even if he doesn't do it as much because of how he chooses to play. There's a difference between being good at different things and how much priority you put on them.
bure's not different in those aspects from brett hull or teemu selšnne or any goal machine, i really can't see how bure is more one dimensional than hull or selšnne ... for example he was very good on the pk and scored as many sh goals in one season [7] as selšnne has so far in 1208 nhl games

and bure was a good passer, he wasn't a great playmaker or anyhting but he could make passes


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11-24-2010, 03:03 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I wish there were ice time stats for back in the day so we'd know for sure about the ton of ice time the old timers logged.. or even more recently a guy like Gretzky or Lemieux or Gilmour who double shifted a ton in some of their big years..

Would be very interesting to see
For Gretzky and Lemieux, GF and GA do give us a very accurate representation of their icetime. As Hockey Outsider mentioned, these "estimates" were compared to generated estimates for a season with the actual results known, and there was a 90% correlation between the actual and estimated values - which is huge.

That's why I don't have any problems quoting these pre-1999 ice time stats.

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11-24-2010, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
For Gretzky and Lemieux, GF and GA do give us a very accurate representation of their icetime. As Hockey Outsider mentioned, these "estimates" were compared to generated estimates for a season with the actual results known, and there was a 90% correlation between the actual and estimated values - which is huge.

That's why I don't have any problems quoting these pre-1999 ice time stats.
Compared to what year's actuals?

Because frankly, the shifts and usage of the average and star players has changed a lot.

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11-25-2010, 03:07 PM
  #131
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In my opinion having grown up watching most of these superstars play, Pavel Bure is a TOP 5 Goal Scorer. If you saw the whole Russia Finland Semifinal Game in the 98' Olympics when he scored a Record 5 goals, some of you would realize how Amazing and Blessed he was.

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