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Is it time to rebuild?

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Old
11-16-2010, 02:55 PM
  #76
MarkGio
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Too many fans make a big deal about a player's salary. Jaybow is not worth 6.5 million right? Who cares? It's not your money to spend. I assume that fans are only pissed off at his salary because he's no longer tradable, but if he was making 500K any team would take him in a heartbeat. Would most fans agree that it would be dumb to trade Jaybow if he was making 500K? But what's changed? Either a player should be traded, or they should be kept, based on performance and despite the player's salary. So ask yourself, at 500K, is Jaybow good enough to have a guaranteed spot on this team?

One might be able to argue that Jaybow's 6.5 million dollar salary inhibits the club's ability to sign more and/or better players during the offseason, and to an extent that's true, but look at Redden...the Rangers saw him as a sunk cost, and paid him to play in the minors (Souray is another example). So there are ways out. I guess the Flames could have gone after Kovalchuk if the Flames didn't have so much salary tied up, but in principle, that's exactly what the flames did when they signed Jaybow (or other huge salary players). They went after a big name free-agent, tying up a lot of cap space in the process, and inhibiting that space for future free agents. I'd say Flames fans are lucky they don't have a GM that's dumb enough to hand out ridiculus salary's that last more than a decade (the current trend in signings) and prolong the inhibiting process.

The only time salary plays a role in hurting an organization is during mid-season, after the cap-hit has been done, and thus a player's salary cannot be moved. But once again, that's only when the player is a sunk cost, and a minor player could do better. But we cannot live a dream world where players all players are red-hot all the time, and since the salary is paid for by a bunch of billionaires who own these hockey clubs, I suggest the fans worry about a player's performance, and let the owners worry about a player's paycheck.

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11-16-2010, 03:35 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
This. I've been saying this for 2 or 3 years now. Most Flames fans' eyes were clouded with Sutter's semen to realize it however.

Iggy, Kipper, J-Bo, Regehr - trade them all. Blow it the f* up!
We'll take Regehr now that Markov is out

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11-16-2010, 04:16 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
While personally I think the value is fair, San Jose would want more back out of this trade. They value Setoguchi alot more than other people around the league do. It would probably require White and a 3rd or 4th because his contract is up at the end of year.

And personally I would pass on Setoguchi, he is young and speedy but he is streaky and when he is not scoring he is useless. We also currently have no one to feed him the puck to score, unless if in the process we get someone who could set him up, I don't want Setoguchi. Although him and Backlund may be good linemates.
In the context of my proposal, I would have no problem giving up White PLUS a 4th rounder in 2011 for Setoguchi (we don't have a 3rd in 2011), because we'd have already recuperated a 2nd (Avs), and also have two 1st (Flames & Kings). Maybe even make it a conditional 3rd or 4th rounder in 2012, depending on whether or not White re-signs with the Sharks.

I would want Setoguchi, because like you said, he's young and speedy and he knows how to score goals. He may be streaky but I could see him developing long term chemistry with good passing centerman the likes of Backlund (as you stated) and/or Schenn. For a start, you could try him out with Tanguay, another excellent passer.

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11-23-2010, 05:24 PM
  #79
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Has it begun? White and Sutter for Babchuk and Kotsopoulos is garbage but I'm not sure we could have got more for White and Sutter is a non-factor. I absolutely love Kotsopoulos, (and so will everyone else, in short order) but Babchuk is a total dud. Terrible defensively....great shot but little else.

Anyways, has it begun now? Iggy's hot again. What did you expect from guy who holds the NHL's longest current 30 goal seasons streak at 9, (and counting). Is he auditioning? I'm still looking to LA for him.

And now there's talk of Regehr plus to Isles for Bailey. My opinion...."SOLD!!!" This season already sucks and won't get much better. Lets rip this band-aid off quick cause it's gonna hurt either way so lets just get it over with.

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11-23-2010, 05:36 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by flames89 View Post
Has it begun?

No. It hasn't.

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Old
11-23-2010, 05:45 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by flames89 View Post
And now there's talk of Regehr plus to Isles for Bailey. My opinion...."SOLD!!!"
Why on Earth would Regehr waive his NMC to go play for the NYI? And Regehr+ other things for Bailey? Yeah, fat chance.

No idea where you've heard this rumour as it's not here or on CP.

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Old
11-23-2010, 06:23 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Too many fans make a big deal about a player's salary. Jaybow is not worth 6.5 million right? Who cares? It's not your money to spend. I assume that fans are only pissed off at his salary because he's no longer tradable, but if he was making 500K any team would take him in a heartbeat. Would most fans agree that it would be dumb to trade Jaybow if he was making 500K? But what's changed? Either a player should be traded, or they should be kept, based on performance and despite the player's salary. So ask yourself, at 500K, is Jaybow good enough to have a guaranteed spot on this team?

One might be able to argue that Jaybow's 6.5 million dollar salary inhibits the club's ability to sign more and/or better players during the offseason, and to an extent that's true, but look at Redden...the Rangers saw him as a sunk cost, and paid him to play in the minors (Souray is another example). So there are ways out. I guess the Flames could have gone after Kovalchuk if the Flames didn't have so much salary tied up, but in principle, that's exactly what the flames did when they signed Jaybow (or other huge salary players). They went after a big name free-agent, tying up a lot of cap space in the process, and inhibiting that space for future free agents. I'd say Flames fans are lucky they don't have a GM that's dumb enough to hand out ridiculus salary's that last more than a decade (the current trend in signings) and prolong the inhibiting process.

The only time salary plays a role in hurting an organization is during mid-season, after the cap-hit has been done, and thus a player's salary cannot be moved. But once again, that's only when the player is a sunk cost, and a minor player could do better. But we cannot live a dream world where players all players are red-hot all the time, and since the salary is paid for by a bunch of billionaires who own these hockey clubs, I suggest the fans worry about a player's performance, and let the owners worry about a player's paycheck.
You've completely missed the point.

Every team has X dollars to spend.

To the extent any player is playing below his salary level it affects the team.

The best teams are those that have more players playing above their salary level than below it.

Look at Chicago last year. The only players that played below thier salary level last year were Huet and Campbell (who played grerat, just not $7M great).

Pretty much every one else played above their salary level, some by a huge amount.

Result: Stanley Cup.

This year, the only meaningful players playing above their salary level as Gio and maybe Morrison. Lots are aplying below thier level.

Result: bottom of the league team.

The fact that Jawbow is playing below his salary level wouldn't matter so much if he was the only one, and many were playing above, but that's not true. But he contributes to an insolvable problem: too many players playing below their salary.

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Old
11-23-2010, 07:57 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by flames89 View Post
I agree. Not quite yet. Give it a bit of a chance. But for me, if by the end of December we're well out of contention, that's when I would blow it up.I'd fax every team in the league and let them all know that the bulk of our team is available and will be moved for the best offers. This gives us enough time to get one of the top picks in the upcoming draft via freefall. It sucks but I think its got to be done.

Why dont people get it...the rebuild doesnt start until Sutter is gone....he is not rebuilding, he traded for Anton Babchuk for godsake...he is desperate man and will do whatever it takes to win now....there is nothing wrong with that except that he no longer knows what it takes to win.

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11-23-2010, 08:00 PM
  #84
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If we were going to rebuild, what would it take to get Parise out of New Jersey?

That'd be a good piece to build around up front.

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11-23-2010, 08:06 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BurnEmUp View Post
If we were going to rebuild, what would it take to get Parise out of New Jersey?

That'd be a good piece to build around up front.
whatever it is, the Flames dont have it. They dont want Kipper as they already have Broduer, Parise is already better than Iginla...nobody else on the Flames is really worth Parise

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11-23-2010, 08:14 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Dallas Hockey Fan View Post
whatever it is, the Flames dont have it. They dont want Kipper as they already have Broduer, Parise is already better than Iginla...nobody else on the Flames is really worth Parise
Maybe so, but we could get assets via trades, and then use some of those assets to go after someone like Parise.

For instance, this is just off the top of my head using some of the rumors that were floating around here recently about Iggy.

Iginla to Kings for Schenn, Moller, Teubert, 1st in 2011

That would give us 2 1st's in the upcoming draft...

One of our first rounders
Forward prospect (Moller, Nemisz, Wahl, Howse)
Defense Prospect (Teubert, Brodie, Erixon, Negrin)

for

RFA Zach Parise


Something like that could be done, IF we were to attempt a rebuild.

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11-23-2010, 09:28 PM
  #87
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I think I have to rebuild the shed out back... too much heavy snow on the roof

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11-23-2010, 10:14 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
We'll take Regehr now that Markov is out
You D is freaking beastly this year. Georges-Gill as your 3rd unit is pretty friggen good.

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Old
11-24-2010, 05:28 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Calgary Highlander View Post
Why on Earth would Regehr waive his NMC to go play for the NYI? And Regehr+ other things for Bailey? Yeah, fat chance.

No idea where you've heard this rumour as it's not here or on CP.
I agree. Regehr plus ???? for Bailey, is not at all likely. That's why I said "Sold". I don't think that's even close and if somehow it is....Do it!!!!

As for where I heard the rumour.... http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?p...4&blogger_id=1


Last edited by Gold Pads*: 11-24-2010 at 07:06 PM. Reason: typo
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11-24-2010, 06:02 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by flames89 View Post
I agree. Regehr plus ???? for Bailey, is not at all likely. That's why I said "Sold". I don't think that's even close and somehow it is....Do it!!!!

As for where I heard the rumour.... http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?p...4&blogger_id=1
its an interesting rumor to me just because I believe Bailey centered Nemisz in Windsor at one in time... and he was definitely teammates with Nemisz & Renaud

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Old
11-24-2010, 07:07 PM
  #91
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its an interesting rumor to me just because I believe Bailey centered Nemisz in Windsor at one in time... and he was definitely teammates with Nemisz & Renaud
I'd love for it to happen. Just not holding my breath. Bailey would be great.

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Old
11-24-2010, 07:59 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BurnEmUp View Post
If we were going to rebuild, what would it take to get Parise out of New Jersey?

That'd be a good piece to build around up front.
Maybe eat Kovalchuk's God Awful contract? Seriously though Parise is a rock solid player and due to cap issues might be gotten.

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11-24-2010, 08:01 PM
  #93
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For some reason I always thought Reggie would end up a Capital should he ever be moved... He would only waive his NMC to go to a contender... well I would if I were him. Same goes for any veteran.

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11-24-2010, 08:41 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by BurnEmUp View Post
Maybe so, but we could get assets via trades, and then use some of those assets to go after someone like Parise.

For instance, this is just off the top of my head using some of the rumors that were floating around here recently about Iggy.

Iginla to Kings for Schenn, Moller, Teubert, 1st in 2011

That would give us 2 1st's in the upcoming draft...

One of our first rounders
Forward prospect (Moller, Nemisz, Wahl, Howse)
Defense Prospect (Teubert, Brodie, Erixon, Negrin)

for

RFA Zach Parise


Something like that could be done, IF we were to attempt a rebuild.
We basically got Scheen and Parise for Iggy.

Parise will cost multiple cheap premium young players.

Iggy, even a revived Iggy, isn't worth his contract and won't bring that type of return.

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11-24-2010, 11:27 PM
  #95
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I really think the organization is looking to keep this team together and "contend" for the next 2 seasons. Contracts expire then and isn't the CBA expiring then too?

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:48 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Iginlafan View Post
I really think the organization is looking to keep this team together and "contend" for the next 2 seasons. Contracts expire then and isn't the CBA expiring then too?
heres, the thing.. i think that was the original plan.. problem is, the plan has failed miserably. Why would anyone continue down a doomed path knowing that there is obviously NO chance of makin a run for the cup?

I think Fans will start to lose interest once the reality sets in about the playoffs (or lack thereof), regardless if the team is young or old so why not get rid of the "Baggage" while there is at least SOME value in the vets before they are ufa's and they are worthless to the team.? get what we can now instead of nothing at all.

I personally am ready for some big moves, its frustrating watching these guys

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11-26-2010, 02:49 AM
  #97
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Well, if the Flames continue to slide out of playoff contention I think an attempt should be made to re-tool this organization's roster.

Make it younger, faster and more skilled.....the type of team that would likely execute Brent Sutter's system more consistently and also be able to create and capitalize on more offensive chances.

----------------------------------------------------------
Step 1 - Move out some expiring contracts as rentals to contender's for draft picks.

To Pittsburgh: Alex Tanguay
To Calgary: 2011 2nd Round Draft Pick

To Washington: Brendan Morrison
To Calgary: 2011 3rd Round Draft Pick

To Montreal: Curtis Glencross
To Calgary: 2011 3rd Round Draft Pick

----------------------------------------------------------
Step 2 - Pry some promising young forwards from organizations that have depth in that area.

To Boston: David Moss, 2011 3rd Round Draft Pick (Habs)
To Calgary: Blake Wheeler

To San Jose: Anton Babchuk, 2011 2nd Round Draft Pick (Pens)
To Calgary: Devin Setoguchi

-----------------------------------------------------------
Step 3 - Trade your best forward asset while it's still valuable, shake the culture of the entire roster, make cap space and bring in some serious assets for the future.

To Los Angeles: Jarome Iginla
To Calgary: Brayden Schenn, Colten Teubert, 2011 1st Round Draft Pick

-----------------------------------------------------------
Step 4 - (Before The Draft) Replace Jarome with an offensive superstar just entering his prime

To New Jersey: Two 2011 1st Round Draft Picks (Flames, Kings), Niklas Hagman, + Prospect (? Wahl, Nemisz, Brodie)
To Calgary: Zach Parise

-----------------------------------------------------------

Off season Plan A -

If Brad Richards is still unsigned by Dallas, shop Stajan and Sarich for picks/prospects. If you're able to move these two, then trade for Richards rights.

Sign UFA:

Brad Richards (31) - 4-5 year (7,000,000 per)

Re-sign RFA's

Setoguchi (24) - 3-5 year ($3,000,000 per)
Wheeler (25) - 3-5 year ($3,000,000 per)
Mikkelson (23) - 1-2 year ($850,000 per)
Parise (26) - 5-7 year ($7,000,000 per)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Off season Plan B - Re-sign RFA's only

Setoguchi (24) - 3-5 year ($3,000,000 per)
Wheeler (25) - 3-5 year ($3,000,000 per)
Mikkelson (23) - 1-2 year ($850,000 per)
Parise (26) - 5-7 year ($7,000,000 per)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Line-up Next Year: (Plan A)

1. Parise (7,000,000) - Richards (7,000,000) - Setoguchi (3,000,000)
2. Bourque (3,333,333) - Backlund (1,270,833) - Wheeler (3,000,000)
3. Jokinen (3,000,000) - Schenn (3,140,000) - Kotalik (3,000,000)
4. Kostopolous (916,667) - Meyer (512,500) - Jackman (550,000)
Extra - Ivanans (600,000)

1. Bouwmeester (6,680,000) - Regehr (4,020,000)
2. Giordano (4,020,000) - Teubert (916,667)
3. Mikkelson (850,000) - Brodie (733,333)
Extra - Pelech (600,000)

1. Kiprusoff (5,833,333)
2. Any Back-up (500,000)

Buy-out - Nigel Dawes (141,667)

Payroll Minus Bonuses - $57,688,333 (Potential Bonuses = $2,930,000)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Line-up Next Year: (Plan B)

1. Parise (7,000,000) - Stajan (3,500,000) - Setoguchi (3,000,000)
2. Bourque (3,333,333) - Backlund (1,270,833) - Wheeler (3,000,000)
3. Jokinen (3,000,000) - Schenn (3,140,000) - Kotalik (3,000,000)
4. Kostopolous (916,667) - Meyer (512,500) - Jackman (550,000)
Extra - Ivanans (600,000)

1. Bouwmeester (6,680,000) - Regehr (4,020,000)
2. Giordano (4,020,000) - Sarich (3,600,000)
3. Mikkelson (850,000) - Teubert (916,667)
Extra - Brodie (733,333)

1. Kiprusoff (5,833,333)
2. Any Back-up (500,000)

Buy-out - Nigel Dawes (141,667)

Payroll Minus Bonuses - $57,188,333 (Potential Bonuses = $2,930,000)

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Old
11-26-2010, 07:53 AM
  #98
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Everyone seems to have written off the Pennsylvania games. Well Philly was in Minnesota while we were in NJ. Maybe the home teams will have a disadvantage by underestimating the Flames and playing early at home.

Let's see if we can sweep the PA games setting up a 3 game set with Minny x 2 and the Nucks.

The season is not over yet.

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Old
11-26-2010, 08:12 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by cgychieffan View Post
heres, the thing.. i think that was the original plan.. problem is, the plan has failed miserably. Why would anyone continue down a doomed path knowing that there is obviously NO chance of makin a run for the cup?

I think Fans will start to lose interest once the reality sets in about the playoffs (or lack thereof), regardless if the team is young or old so why not get rid of the "Baggage" while there is at least SOME value in the vets before they are ufa's and they are worthless to the team.? get what we can now instead of nothing at all.

I personally am ready for some big moves, its frustrating watching these guys
I totally agreed with you. But first thing is to get rid of the Sutters, both of them and the scouting staff...nothing will change until that is done...it's a proven fact that D Sutter and the scouting staff are not right for the rebuild.
Sutter was OK for awhile but any idiot would know his time is up.

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11-26-2010, 12:52 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by BurnEmUp View Post
Step 2 - Pry some promising young forwards from organizations that have depth in that area.

To Boston: David Moss, 2011 3rd Round Draft Pick (Habs)
To Calgary: Blake Wheeler

To San Jose: Anton Babchuk, 2011 2nd Round Draft Pick (Pens)
To Calgary: Devin Setoguchi

-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't think either of those deals are possible. In fact, I don't think the Boston deal is even close.

Besides, Darryl thinks everything's fine. http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=calgh-ca-3885388

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