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Old
11-16-2010, 04:55 PM
  #26
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Getting scolded for not doing a good job isn't the same as rigging games so that one team will defeat another, which is what you've been trying to allege, while at the same time refusing to come out and say it because even you know how stupid that is, and you know you won't be taken seriously.

Which brings me to the natural question, why even try to infer that there is something "crooked" going on if you don't have the guts to actually say it?


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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
And, lest the pollyanna's in here think I'm just talking about the NHL refs, (and I know you didn't specify a sport CC so I think you know where I'm headed with this), this kind of thing exactly happens in every major officiated sport. I mean, good God, it happens at the HS level where there's next to no money on the line. It was happening at the HS level a DECADE ago.

We now have documented, irrefutable proof that the current Senior VP and Director of Hockey Ops for the NHL has emailed the NHL's then Director of Officiating to excoriate current refs and players regarding things he thinks weren't called correctly or behaviors he doesn't feel were properly punished, in at least one case when Campbell himself didn't even see the game, but heard the commentary from the home-ice announcing team. Given that:

1) Are people actually going to attempt to affect the pose that such communications don't a) impact the recipient in the fulfillment of his job and/or b) filter down either directly or otherwise to on-ice officials and subsequently impact how they perform their jobs?

2) Are people actually going to attempt to affect the pose that Colin Campbell is the only guy in the whole VP and above level in the NHL who engages in this kind of communication?

3) Are people actually going to attempt to affect the pose that these comprise the full and complete examples of communications between Walkom and Campbell when the latter directly comments on what he wants to see changed from the on-ice officials?

Given what we've seen and read here is it even remotely implausible that Campbell, or Daly, or Bettman, or any other powerbroker from Toronto had a very similar conversation with Walkom about 'how that Holmstrom guy is constantly interfering with goalies', or 'how great it is for the league to have guys like Ovechkin and Crosby playing deep into the playoffs' or 'what a shame it'd be if -insert name of team here- didn't get a fairer shake from the officials in their series'?

Give me a break. If nothing else, Campbellgate (is it a gate yet?) has provided us with the mad libs that connect quite a few dots.

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11-16-2010, 05:13 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Getting scolded for not doing a good job isn't the same as rigging games so that one team will defeat another, which is what you've been trying to allege,
And this is just another example of the endless litany of misrepresentations and red herrings you've strewn about any discussion regarding officiating in the NHL.

The reason I haven't come out and said the league 'rigs games' is that I don't believe the NHL is 'rigging games'. You continually, repeatedly and beyond the point where it could be called accidental deliberately refuse to recognize the difference between 'fixing' a game and 'nudging' a game.

You are totally, completely and very conveniently 'color-blind' on this issue.

Obviously, it's because you know that you have next to no real ground to stand on with regards to 'nudging', so you quickly retreat from any defense on that point and then loudly proclaim all the Tinfoil Hatters are saying is that the NHL is rigging every single game of every series in every postseason, or something pretty close to that.

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Which brings me to the natural question, why even try to infer that there is something "crooked" going on if you don't have the guts to actually say it?
Because I've said exactly what I mean, and my reluctance to say something I don't believe just because you are intentionally unwilling to recognize degree has absolutely no impact on the relevance of what I do elect to say.

Capiche?

The NHL nudges games. We've seen this in action on the ice, and now we've seen the communications as they've occurred at the highest levels of the League offices which bring about the kinds of officiating, er, 'adjustments' that happen game to game which so many fans call into question. The missing linkage is, obviously, seeing what Walkom is subsequently saying to on-ice officials and comparing how closely that jibes with what guys like Campbell were howling into his ear.

You, believing the very best and most noble of our esteemed NHL leadership, have chosen to believe that guys like Campbell storm and yell at the people beneath them and that this stream of commentary washes against the obdurate, implacable rock that is the Director of Officiating, never percolating down towards the officials he oversees.

Que sa'ra, I guess. The digital age being what it is, it's really only a matter of time before information making that final linkage becomes available... but even then, you won't really be swayed. As I've said, your burden of proof is so high in this regard that you'd probably need to have a current NHL on-ice official drive to your house and play a voicemail from his Director telling him to call more penalty x's on player y.

And, really, I think you'd even write that off as the official having some kind of grudge against the league. Alas.

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11-16-2010, 05:25 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Yahoo also picked this up several hours ago. Pretty decent synopsis too.

Also as I'm sure most of you found out there's already a thread of the main board 10 pages long about this.

The Deadspin version is pretty vanilla. Yahoo really gets into some great conspiracy theories, all the way to Cooke not being suspended for the headshot on Savard. Fun fun read lol
Just to be fair with regards to attribution, the first place to run the story, Tyler Dellow at mc79hockey.com, brought up the concept of the Cooke suspension in that post, albeit very briefly.

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Originally Posted by Huddy View Post
What makes you think Bettman isn't a businessman?And I am not trying to call you out, just want to see what you think a good adept business man is. As we can all attest to, he has had more problems than good while running the NHL, but that doesn't mean hes not an adept businessman. He runs a successful league, the NHL makes money, TV rights outside of VS. are being discussed again. The game has taken a step back IMO in terms of penalties, etc, but in terms of running a business, Gary Bettman is very good. I wish he had a better supporting cast around him, IE colin , but we cant argue Bettmans business aspect of the NHL vs the actual output we see as fans on the ice. No comparison as we don't see at least 60% of the business side to the NHL.
I personally think Bettman's biggest failure is that he doesn't seem to know well enough the product he is selling.

He still has the NBA mindset of selling the game by selling individuals, that works when your starters play almost the whole game, you can push a player as a fan favorite and the fans can have that favorite and watch him all game.

As much as you can still have a favorite player in the NHL and watch him with wide eyed wonder every time he's on the ice, It's not a sport where you could love a team for a single player.

Yet this is how the NHL is trying to sell the game, most notable in the Sid Vs Ovie stuff that we keep seeing.

I think they are trying to sell something which doesn't line up with the on ice product, and while those of us who are already fans can just ignore that, I think it proves a barrier to new fans.

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11-16-2010, 05:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
And this is just another example of the endless litany of misrepresentations and red herrings you've strewn about any discussion regarding officiating in the NHL.

The reason I haven't come out and said the league 'rigs games' is that I don't believe the NHL is 'rigging games'. You continually, repeatedly and beyond the point where it could be called accidental deliberately refuse to recognize the difference between 'fixing' a game and 'nudging' a game.

You are totally, completely and very conveniently 'color-blind' on this issue.

Obviously, it's because you know that you have next to no real ground to stand on with regards to 'nudging', so you quickly retreat from any defense on that point and then loudly proclaim all the Tinfoil Hatters are saying is that the NHL is rigging every single game of every series in every postseason, or something pretty close to that.



Because I've said exactly what I mean, and my reluctance to say something I don't believe just because you are intentionally unwilling to recognize degree has absolutely no impact on the relevance of what I do elect to say.

Capiche?

The NHL nudges games. We've seen this in action on the ice, and now we've seen the communications as they've occurred at the highest levels of the League offices which bring about the kinds of officiating, er, 'adjustments' that happen game to game which so many fans call into question. The missing linkage is, obviously, seeing what Walkom is subsequently saying to on-ice officials and comparing how closely that jibes with what guys like Campbell were howling into his ear.

You, believing the very best and most noble of our esteemed NHL leadership, have chosen to believe that guys like Campbell storm and yell at the people beneath them and that this stream of commentary washes against the obdurate, implacable rock that is the Director of Officiating, never percolating down towards the officials he oversees.

Que sa'ra, I guess. The digital age being what it is, it's really only a matter of time before information making that final linkage becomes available... but even then, you won't really be swayed. As I've said, your burden of proof is so high in this regard that you'd probably need to have a current NHL on-ice official drive to your house and play a voicemail from his Director telling him to call more penalty x's on player y.

And, really, I think you'd even write that off as the official having some kind of grudge against the league. Alas.

We all know what you think. Dress it however you like.

The minute a call went against the Wings or for the Pens, you were here to cry about "nudges."

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11-16-2010, 05:40 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
We all know what you think. Dress it however you like.

The minute a call went against the Wings or for the Pens, you were here to cry about "nudges."
If you think referee's aren't influenced by supervisor without knowing or caring what their motives are would make you either very naive or you're never officiated at any level higher than street hockey.


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11-16-2010, 08:29 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
If you think referee's aren't influenced by supervisor without knowing or caring what their motives are would make you either very naive or you're never officiated at any level higher than street hockey.

Nobody disputes that. Nearly anyone concerned with keeping their job is influenced by a supervisor.

What I am disputing is that Bettman told Campbell that "We need Pittsburgh to win." And then Campbell told that to the head of officiating. And then the head of officiating told that to the officials, who then decided to "nudge" the calls in the Penguins' favor.

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11-17-2010, 05:10 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
We all know what you think. Dress it however you like.

The minute a call went against the Wings or for the Pens, you were here to cry about "nudges."
Two things: 1) It always cracks me up to hear you say 'we', as though you're the union rep for groupthink. Cute. 2) You are again being deliberately untruthful with how you are characterizing my position. Your continued reliance on misrepresentation bordering on outright fabrication and lies is a bit telling, really.

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11-17-2010, 05:14 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nobody disputes that. Nearly anyone concerned with keeping their job is influenced by a supervisor.

What I am disputing is that Bettman told Campbell that "We need Pittsburgh to win." And then Campbell told that to the head of officiating. And then the head of officiating told that to the officials, who then decided to "nudge" the calls in the Penguins' favor.
So, given your first statement why do you think your second statement is so certainly the case? I mean, Pittsburgh had a 4-0 PP advantage in a game 7 on the road. How many other times has that happened in the postsesaon? Has it ever happened before?

Again, your burden of proof seems to need a signed affadavit by a current ref saying exactly what you are claiming has never happened actually happened before you'll countenance it. I tend to keep a bit more of an open mind, having what appears to be a more accurate grasp of what people in power are willing to do in order to help their business.

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11-17-2010, 07:23 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nobody disputes that. Nearly anyone concerned with keeping their job is influenced by a supervisor.

What I am disputing is that Bettman told Campbell that "We need Pittsburgh to win." And then Campbell told that to the head of officiating. And then the head of officiating told that to the officials, who then decided to "nudge" the calls in the Penguins' favor.
So then if said supervisor was being influenced by his supervisor there could be some issues? Again the on ice official only does what he told and NO idea what his supervisors motives are. Now I'm not saying that is what's happening but it's just silly to say it has/hasn't ever happened.

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11-17-2010, 09:18 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
So, given your first statement why do you think your second statement is so certainly the case? I mean, Pittsburgh had a 4-0 PP advantage in a game 7 on the road. How many other times has that happened in the postsesaon? Has it ever happened before?

Again, your burden of proof seems to need a signed affadavit by a current ref saying exactly what you are claiming has never happened actually happened before you'll countenance it. I tend to keep a bit more of an open mind, having what appears to be a more accurate grasp of what people in power are willing to do in order to help their business.
So, you tell me, HiHD. Instead of obfuscating, why not just tell me what you think?

Why did Detroit have a 4-0 advantage in game 7.
If it was nudging, what was the intent of the nudging.
Who was behind it?
Why did they give the order?
What do you think the order might have been?

You can't answer those questions, because if you did, you'd go beyond nudging and right into rigging.
And for whatever reason, you wish to hide your silly conspiracy behind this "nudging" allegation.

You think the NHL wanted their golden boy to win so badly that they'd risk a a nuclear PR disaster if the story got out?
Why? To market the game around their golden boy?

Why not do it again last year? Why not do it for Ovechkin last year?

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11-17-2010, 09:22 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
So then if said supervisor was being influenced by his supervisor there could be some issues? Again the on ice official only does what he told and NO idea what his supervisors motives are. Now I'm not saying that is what's happening but it's just silly to say it has/hasn't ever happened.

Uh, supervisors are ALWAYS influenced by their supervisors.

Why would that be an issue?

Somewhere in here, you're taking a giant leap of logic.

Just because a supervisor has influence of his subordinates doesn't mean his ordering his subordinates to ref in a biased way against a team.

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11-17-2010, 09:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Uh, supervisors are ALWAYS influenced by their supervisors.

Why would that be an issue?

Somewhere in here, you're taking a giant leap of logic.

Just because a supervisor has influence of his subordinates doesn't mean his ordering his subordinates to ref in a biased way against a team.
Again the on ice official has NO idea what his supervisors motives are and who's driving those motives, he just knows that Walkom said call it this way or change this.

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11-17-2010, 09:50 AM
  #38
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Again the on ice official has NO idea what his supervisors motives are and who's driving those motives, he just knows that Walkom said call it this way or change this.
OK? So what did Walkom say? What is Walkom's motive?
He's just taking orders from Campbell, right?
Ok? So what did Campbell say? What is Campbell's motive?
He's just taking orders from Bettman, right?
Ok? So what did Bettman say? What is Bettman's motive?
He's just taking orders from the Bilderberg group, right?
Ok? So what did Bilderberg say? What is Bilderberg's motive?
He's just taking orders from the alien overseer, right? What is the alien overseer's motive?


The idea that people take orders from their boss isn't proof of a plot against the Red Wings.

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11-17-2010, 09:58 AM
  #39
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OK? So what did Walkom say? What is Walkom's motive?
He's just taking orders from Campbell, right?
Ok? So what did Campbell say? What is Campbell's motive?
He's just taking orders from Bettman, right?
Ok? So what did Bettman say? What is Bettman's motive?
He's just taking orders from the Bilderberg group, right?
Ok? So what did Bilderberg say? What is Bilderberg's motive?
He's just taking orders from the alien overseer, right? What is the alien overseer's motive?


The idea that people take orders from their boss isn't proof of a plot against the Red Wings.
I'm not saying there's was a plot against the DRW. I'm saying you're naive to think it couldn't happen. And the reasons are very obvious.

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11-17-2010, 03:05 PM
  #40
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I'm not saying there's was a plot against the DRW. I'm saying you're naive to think it couldn't happen. And the reasons are very obvious.
Anything could happen.
That's not a good argument that it is happening.

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11-17-2010, 04:14 PM
  #41
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Anything could happen.
That's not a good argument that it is happening.
You're right. But you saying it's just not happening isn't a good argument either.

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11-17-2010, 04:56 PM
  #42
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You're right. But you saying it's just not happening isn't a good argument either.
The onus on me isn't to prove nothing illegal is going on (rigging games would probably county as a federal crime).

The onus is to prove that something is going on.

The NHL is a long, storied business that rakes in $2.7 billion annually. Give me a good reason why the NHL would risk that?

And then tell me how it went down.

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11-17-2010, 05:54 PM
  #43
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The onus on me isn't to prove nothing illegal is going on (rigging games would probably county as a federal crime).

The onus is to prove that something is going on.

The NHL is a long, storied business that rakes in $2.7 billion annually. Give me a good reason why the NHL would risk that?

And then tell me how it went down.
That's easy. Failing franchise in a city that needs a win to keep the public interested. Have you forgotten there are lawyers in charge of the NHL?

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11-17-2010, 06:29 PM
  #44
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So, you tell me, HiHD. Instead of obfuscating, why not just tell me what you think?
I have told you already. I think there have been any number of games and or series where there have been fairly apparent instances of 'nudging', where a bad call is one thing, but there was a fairly obvious attempt to intentionally miss a call.

I do not think that every single game involving either the Wings or the Pens has been nudged, because if you nudge everything it a) becomes a lot more obvious and b) starts to resemble 'fixing' more than nudging. Nudging allows room for plausible deniability. Just take yourself, for instance. If the NHL got too obvious, though... it could be hugely, hugely bad for their sport. Even you'd have to sit up and take notice, eventually.

Someday.

Heck, if the NHL had any real national cache the Campbell situation would have been gigantic news... but since not too many people in the US care about hockey, and certainly none of the national sports journalist heavyweights, we're going to hear crickets.

And God knows the sycophantic Canadian NHL 'journalists' aren't going to say boo to anybody in the NHL about it. If any of them were competent they would have gotten on the story first and not been cleanly beaten to it by a blogger.

Quote:
You think the NHL wanted their golden boy to win so badly that they'd risk a a nuclear PR disaster if the story got out?
Why would a supposed instance of Colin Campbell ranting and raving about how much of a cheap player Holmstrom is to the Director of Officiating be any more of a story than you think Colin Campbell ranting about Marc Savard is?

Quote:
Why? To market the game around their golden boy?
Yes, obviously. Or to help out specific markets. The NHL spends millions marketing a very few individual players. If those guys aren't in the playoffs, isn't the NHL wasting those marketing dollars? We're talking about millions just invested in that, Tin.

Quote:
Why not do it again last year? Why not do it for Ovechkin last year?
A) Because nudging doesn't always result in a win, and B) because not every matchup is targeted for a nudge.

IMO, after the first round and once Detroit and SJ got bounced, the NHL didn't really have a bad SCF matchup left, either market-wise or in their own opinion. Philly, Montreal, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, Vancouver... all fairly uncomplicated teams for the NHL to have in the Finals.

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11-17-2010, 06:36 PM
  #45
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The idea that people take orders from their boss isn't proof of a plot against the Red Wings.
Who said their was a plot against the Red Wings?

And, again, what do you consider 'proof', anyway?

IMO the Campbell emails to Walkom prove a) that there are some significant and strenuous biases for and against specific NHL players, referees, and types of calls and that b) those biases are transmitted directly to the people in charge of changing how things are called on the ice.

Heck, you yourself have admitted that people who want to keep their jobs are going to be influenced by their supervisors. Doesn't Walkom want to keep his job, so won't he respond in some manner to Campbell's rants? Don't NHL on-ice officials want to keep their jobs, so won't they respond to Walkom responding to Campbell?

Seems like a fairly obvious chain of likely assumptions to me.

At this point, as far as I'm concerned we've already proven that NHL officiating is directly and explicitly impacted by the bias of their senior leadership. The only thing we don't yet know for certain is the breadth and depth of what all those biases may be.

But it's early yet.

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11-17-2010, 06:38 PM
  #46
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That's easy. Failing franchise in a city that needs a win to keep the public interested. Have you forgotten there are lawyers in charge of the NHL?
The pens weren't a failing franchise when they won the cup.
Try again.

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11-17-2010, 06:41 PM
  #47
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The pens weren't a failing franchise when they won the cup.
Try again.
Not really supporting either side of this argument, but the relevant team that came to mind as I read this is the Phoenix Coyotes. Their last series against us was pretty lopsided. I've had more than one Chicago fan tell me they thought it was obvious what the NHL was doing in that series.

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11-17-2010, 06:41 PM
  #48
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Iif you nudge everything it a) becomes a lot more obvious and b) starts to resemble 'fixing' more than nudging. Nudging allows room for plausible deniability. Just take yourself, for instance. If the NHL got too obvious, though... it could be hugely, hugely bad for their sport. Even you'd have to sit up and take notice, eventually.

Nudging is fixing, but it's subtle so it won't be viewed as obvious fixing?

LOL.

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11-17-2010, 08:07 PM
  #49
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you gotta be the most naive person on here CB. i suppose you also think that everything the government does is for the best interest of the people too right?

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11-17-2010, 08:14 PM
  #50
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Not really supporting either side of this argument, but the relevant team that came to mind as I read this is the Phoenix Coyotes. Their last series against us was pretty lopsided. I've had more than one Chicago fan tell me they thought it was obvious what the NHL was doing in that series.
It's pretty clear what side of the argument you're supporting.

Honestly, if I thought the league was taking sides, I wouldn't waste my time watching the "sport."
And I question the intelligence of anyone who would.

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