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Mike Modano, a Hall of Famer?

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Old
11-17-2010, 09:51 AM
  #26
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Modano had (easily) a better career and was a better player than Gilbert Perreault or Darryl Sittler. Pretty damned obvious he's a HHOF lock.
Yeah, now that you mention it...

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11-17-2010, 11:10 AM
  #27
Marotte Marauder
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1st ballot lock.

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Old
11-17-2010, 11:48 AM
  #28
TasteofFlames
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This thread really surprised me. I was expecting a lot of people to come in here and rail on the possibility of Modano in the HHOF.

I'm not going to go into stats and such, as I don't think his numbers scream HHOF, and will be the main reasons he has any opposition. I will say that I believe him to be the second most important player when it comes to bringing hockey to the sunbelt. For that alone, he should be in the hall. I'm also biased as hell, as Modano is the main reason I am a hockey fan.

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11-17-2010, 12:16 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Coffey Maker View Post
one of the best captains ever in the modern era, next to sakic and yzerman
over 1300 points
classy individual overall
and banging this daily http://wallpaper.celebritypc.com/wil...ord_8-1024.jpg

id say he is a lock
Maybe to other players but not to fans.

I wonder if they induct his wife Willa Ford as well on the same ballot? After all his nuts are in a jar that she controls!

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11-17-2010, 01:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sony Eriksson View Post
Maybe to other players but not to fans.
I've heard stories about him being a dick to fans, but every interaction I've had with him has been great.
example: When I was living in Dallas, my family would go to the GTE Byron Nelson golf tournament every year. I met Modano at one of these when I was in 5th grade. I just wanted to say how much I loved the team and wasn't looking for an autograph, since i didn't have anything for him to sign. So Modano punches Benoit Hogue, steals his fan' whips out a pen and proceeds to sign said fan. He then has hogue sign his reappropriated fan and has Grant Marshall do the same. Needless to say, 5th grade me was on cloud 9 for a month.

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11-17-2010, 04:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
He was better than Glen Anderson, Dino, Larionov, Robitaille and Duff, all recent entrants. He should get in.
^^^this

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11-18-2010, 01:31 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by marty 4 hart View Post
Is Modano really behind Forsberg?
that list of sakic, forsberg, fedorov, and lindros, i meant peak performance. but even talking full careers, there's no question in my mind that forsberg accomplished more than modano did in less than half the games. regular season, playoffs, international play, i just don't see any reasonable argument that modano is ahead of forsberg.

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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
He was better than Glen Anderson, Dino, Larionov, Robitaille and Duff, all recent entrants. He should get in.
other than larionov, i'm with you. it's curious to me that larionov is becoming underrated now, when he was arguably the most overrated member of the green unit due to his NHL success. fetisov was the best player of the five, i have no problem with that. and i can accept an argument that makarov was better too, though i don't think that's nearly as definitive. but krutov, great as he was in his 20s, was more dynamic, but larionov was so important to that unit in such subtle ways.

larionov wasn't a great individual talent like makarov or krutov, but hockey is a team game, and the way he could impact every one of his teammates on the ice was extraordinary. due to the nature of the center role in soviet hockey, larionov's contributions didn't always show up on the stats sheet, but they didn't call him the russian gretzky for nothing. with his amazing hockey sense, he was so key to both the red army's defensive scheme and their transition game, and his vision at both ends of the ice created so much space for his teammates.

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Old
11-18-2010, 02:12 AM
  #33
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I think he might be on the bubble(or, at least not a first ballot) if not for being an American.

But I think he would get in eventually

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11-18-2010, 03:54 AM
  #34
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I think he tends to get underrated now because he wasn't a scoring star, and never quite got into that level of challenging for Hart Trophies/All Star Teams (at the centre position). Though, I was looking through some old season guides, and I believe for the 2000-01 season, they were picking the best player at each position, and Forsberg just nudged out Modano in their opinion.

In all, I think consistency sometimes gets underrated. Not to criticize him, but I know Ogopogo was a huge proponent of the idea that being consistently good does not make you great, and I really disagree. I think sometimes we focus a little too much in the context of a season by season analysis. Now, I realize it makes the most sense, and the object of playing is to win the Stanley Cup, so a great season is more valuable than looking at games spread out over seasons, however, I think it sometimes ignores the fact that while 82 games is a fairly large sample size, it's not always enough. A prolonged slump or hot streak within a season can considerably skew a player's season totals. And if you look at some players, if you put the last 40 games of one season, and the first 40 of the next, they add up to Art Ross/Hart level numbers, and yet the two seasons taken individually, show a player outside of that realm. That's fine, as it most likely means they're not a player at that level, but another player, who puts together those two halves in one season, and a much lesser season the next year is much more highly praised. Yet, is he actually better, or is it just simply "luck" that he put together the halves in one season instead of two?

I mean, when you look at Modano, if he had put up a 100 point season during his prime, and finished top 3 in scoring and won the Hart trophy, and then the next season had only 60 points, would we consider him a better player. Well, probably, he has a Hart. But was he? Probably not. I think this applies well to Iginla, who basically everyone has agreed is a HoF lock here. This is mainly due to his resume, with All Stars, Pearson, Art Ross, etc, but when you look at is closely, he basically has three elite seasons intermingled among good to very good seasons. But he was a notoriously streaky player who also had a lot of inconsistency among his seasons. But should his elite seasons hold as much weight when you look at some of the seasons around them? Frankly, I know I might get some flack for this, but I'd put both Modano and Iginla on the same level, and I think Modano might even have the better career at this point. And since Iginla seems to be a lock, I think Modano is as well.

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Old
11-18-2010, 10:55 AM
  #35
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As a very sad Oilers' fan, looking back on what now seem like glory days of the late 90s, Modano and Forsberg were the most terrifying players in the league. Modana as he built speed with in the neutral zone and Forsberg as he toyed with the defense down low.

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11-18-2010, 10:57 AM
  #36
Rob Brown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffey Maker View Post
one of the best captains ever in the modern era, next to sakic and yzerman
over 1300 points
classy individual overall
and banging this daily http://wallpaper.celebritypc.com/wil...ord_8-1024.jpg

id say he is a lock
Not 100% true.

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Old
11-18-2010, 01:07 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post

other than larionov, i'm with you. it's curious to me that larionov is becoming underrated now, when he was arguably the most overrated member of the green unit due to his NHL success. fetisov was the best player of the five, i have no problem with that. and i can accept an argument that makarov was better too, though i don't think that's nearly as definitive. but krutov, great as he was in his 20s, was more dynamic, but larionov was so important to that unit in such subtle ways.
That argument should be shoved down the throat of everyone who doesn't accept that - until he does

I don't know, at least in those single tournaments and serieses, where Larionov wasn't playing or was playing poorly, the Green Unit functioned just as well IMO.

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Old
11-18-2010, 01:15 PM
  #38
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Yeah, he'll make it in. Solid player during his career.

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Old
11-18-2010, 01:55 PM
  #39
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Excellent all around player who did a lot to help his team win.

A meritorious candidate, for sure.

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11-18-2010, 04:08 PM
  #40
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Not 100% true.
He made an ass of himself during the lockout.

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11-18-2010, 04:49 PM
  #41
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Yes he will get in. Should he? Yes. Don't get me wrong he has some negatives to him but so do a lot of bottom rung HHOFers. Modano will fit nicely with the likes of Sittler, Sundin (when he's in there) and such.

You can't ignore the back to back final appearances. Plus he was a model of consistency. Yeah he never cracked 100 points, but he was almost always money in the bank for 80 points which was alright in the dead puck era and once in a while in the top 10 in scoring.

Yet there is still a feeling of "what if" with Modano. But he'll be a HHOFer.

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11-18-2010, 04:55 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Modano had (easily) a better career and was a better player than Gilbert Perreault or Darryl Sittler. Pretty damned obvious he's a HHOF lock.
Hold on there. Sittler I can see. In fact it would be an interesting poll. Sittler beats him in peak for sure, but overall career is interesting.

I can't agree with the Perreault thing though. Perreault is clearly superior to Sittler who Modano compares to very well. Peak and career Perreault has him beat.

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11-18-2010, 05:41 PM
  #43
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I think he tends to get underrated now because he wasn't a scoring star, and never quite got into that level of challenging for Hart Trophies/All Star Teams (at the centre position). Though, I was looking through some old season guides, and I believe for the 2000-01 season, they were picking the best player at each position, and Forsberg just nudged out Modano in their opinion.

In all, I think consistency sometimes gets underrated. Not to criticize him, but I know Ogopogo was a huge proponent of the idea that being consistently good does not make you great, and I really disagree. I think sometimes we focus a little too much in the context of a season by season analysis. Now, I realize it makes the most sense, and the object of playing is to win the Stanley Cup, so a great season is more valuable than looking at games spread out over seasons, however, I think it sometimes ignores the fact that while 82 games is a fairly large sample size, it's not always enough. A prolonged slump or hot streak within a season can considerably skew a player's season totals. And if you look at some players, if you put the last 40 games of one season, and the first 40 of the next, they add up to Art Ross/Hart level numbers, and yet the two seasons taken individually, show a player outside of that realm. That's fine, as it most likely means they're not a player at that level, but another player, who puts together those two halves in one season, and a much lesser season the next year is much more highly praised. Yet, is he actually better, or is it just simply "luck" that he put together the halves in one season instead of two?

I mean, when you look at Modano, if he had put up a 100 point season during his prime, and finished top 3 in scoring and won the Hart trophy, and then the next season had only 60 points, would we consider him a better player. Well, probably, he has a Hart. But was he? Probably not. I think this applies well to Iginla, who basically everyone has agreed is a HoF lock here. This is mainly due to his resume, with All Stars, Pearson, Art Ross, etc, but when you look at is closely, he basically has three elite seasons intermingled among good to very good seasons. But he was a notoriously streaky player who also had a lot of inconsistency among his seasons. But should his elite seasons hold as much weight when you look at some of the seasons around them? Frankly, I know I might get some flack for this, but I'd put both Modano and Iginla on the same level, and I think Modano might even have the better career at this point. And since Iginla seems to be a lock, I think Modano is as well.
You shouldn't get flack, I'd rate Modano ahead of Iginla as well.

Iginla is a more physical player, but not to the point that anybody is intimidated by him or has to game-plan to combat it. So while hitting and fighting ability are great qualities (probably my two favorites ), I don't think they really give Iginla some big edge over Modano in this case.

Iginla is a better goal-scorer, but like you mentioned, he's inconsistent. [As an aside, it's actually quite amusing to see the effect this has on bi-polar Flames fans. When the guy is hot, give him the keys to the city. He's the glorious leader of a glorious Cup-bound hockey team! But when he's cold and goes AWOL for a couple of big games, trade his washed-up ass out of town!] And really, the goal scoring edge isn't even that big. Both players were good for about 35 goals per season during their prime, with Iginla jumping up to 50 in his two best seasons.

I think Modano more than makes up the goal-scoring and physicality edge with superior playmaking, defensive awareness, and consistency. Iginla can't hold a candle to his playoff resume either.

Really, I don't see a whole lot of argument for Iginla being the better player. He was better relative to his position, but that's easier to do at RW than C. I think you'd have to considerably overrate the impact that Iginla's hits and fights have on games to rate him ahead of Modano. And I say this as a guy who loves those attributes!

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11-18-2010, 05:59 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hold on there. Sittler I can see. In fact it would be an interesting poll. Sittler beats him in peak for sure, but overall career is interesting.

I can't agree with the Perreault thing though. Perreault is clearly superior to Sittler who Modano compares to very well. Peak and career Perreault has him beat.
Actually, there's a very easy to make argument that Perreault's small offensive edge can be easily outweighed by Modano's substantial defensive edge, and better playoff record that led to greater team success.

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11-18-2010, 06:00 PM
  #45
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You shouldn't get flack, I'd rate Modano ahead of Iginla as well.

Iginla is a more physical player, but not to the point that anybody is intimidated by him or has to game-plan to combat it. So while hitting and fighting ability are great qualities (probably my two favorites ), I don't think they really give Iginla some big edge over Modano in this case.

Iginla is a better goal-scorer, but like you mentioned, he's inconsistent. [As an aside, it's actually quite amusing to see the effect this has on bi-polar Flames fans. When the guy is hot, give him the keys to the city. He's the glorious leader of a glorious Cup-bound hockey team! But when he's cold and goes AWOL for a couple of big games, trade his washed-up ass out of town!] And really, the goal scoring edge isn't even that big. Both players were good for about 35 goals per season during their prime, with Iginla jumping up to 50 in his two best seasons.

I think Modano more than makes up the goal-scoring and physicality edge with superior playmaking, defensive awareness, and consistency. Iginla can't hold a candle to his playoff resume either.

Really, I don't see a whole lot of argument for Iginla being the better player. He was better relative to his position, but that's easier to do at RW than C. I think you'd have to considerably overrate the impact that Iginla's hits and fights have on games to rate him ahead of Modano. And I say this as a guy who loves those attributes!
On the other hand, Iginla's put together three seasons that earned him serious Hart consideration.

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11-18-2010, 06:14 PM
  #46
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On the other hand, Iginla's put together three seasons that earned him serious Hart consideration.
But really, how much better were these seasons than Modano's seasons in the late 90's and early 00's? With several other great players on his team, and even the general disdain many people had for Dallas' trapping style, how likely was it for Modano to get serious Hart consideration? Compare that to Iginla, who was a one-man show on the offensively challenged Flames in a number of seasons. Going on the basis of value to team, it's very understandable that Iginla would have a superior Hart record to Modano.

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11-18-2010, 06:27 PM
  #47
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Hold on there. Sittler I can see. In fact it would be an interesting poll. Sittler beats him in peak for sure, but overall career is interesting.

I can't agree with the Perreault thing though. Perreault is clearly superior to Sittler who Modano compares to very well. Peak and career Perreault has him beat.

Gilbert Perreault - Top 5 seasons, adjusted points :

98
89
84
83
82

Mike Modano, Top 5 seasons, adjusted points :

95
91
89
88
86

Gilbert Perreault, Top 5 seasons, adjusted goals :

38
36
35
34
33

Mike Modano, Top 5 seasons, adjusted goals :

45
42
39
39
36

_________

Adjusted for era, Modano has a slight edge offensively.

Defensively, it isn't even close. Modano was maybe the best two-way center in the NHL from 1998-2003, while Perreault was notoriously slack in his own zone and didn't kill penalties until his mid-30s.

Modano has a better playoff track record.

How exactly is Perreault better than Modano?

Because he averaged 10 more points/season through his peak while playing in an era when it was much easier to score?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Actually, there's a very easy to make argument that Perreault's small offensive edge can be easily outweighed by Modano's substantial defensive edge, and better playoff record that led to greater team success.
Yup. See above.

For the record, I'd rate Modano ahead of guys like Denis Savard and Jean Ratelle as well, and probably ahead of Dale Hawerchuk.

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11-18-2010, 06:38 PM
  #48
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I'm not sure if adjusted points is the best way to compare Perreault, as it was very likely that his offense was held back by playing at the small rink in Buffalo (I've seen stats that show he, unlike pretty much every other superstar, scored more points on the road than at home).

That said, Modano's D was definitely much, much better.

If he played in the spotlight of Toronto, rather than Dallas/Minnesota, would Modano be considered in the same breath as Dave Keon (assuming he still transformed his game under Hitchcock and had the same playoff success)?

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11-18-2010, 08:15 PM
  #49
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I'm not sure if adjusted points is the best way to compare Perreault, as it was very likely that his offense was held back by playing at the small rink in Buffalo (I've seen stats that show he, unlike pretty much every other superstar, scored more points on the road than at home).

That said, Modano's D was definitely much, much better.

If he played in the spotlight of Toronto, rather than Dallas/Minnesota, would Modano be considered in the same breath as Dave Keon (assuming he still transformed his game under Hitchcock and had the same playoff success)?
It would be the other way around as Keon was never the offensive player that Modano was.

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11-18-2010, 09:38 PM
  #50
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From 1989-present:

Top NHL scorers in that time:
1. Jagr 1599
2. Sakic 1579
3. Recchi 1494
4. Modano 1365
5. Sundin 1349
6. Selanne 1279
7. Shanahan 1278

He's a lock, no matter what his country of origin is!
Stats speak for themselves

I cant belive some people dont think Modano is a hall of famer canadians

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