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Mike Modano, a Hall of Famer?

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Old
11-18-2010, 09:55 PM
  #51
RabbinsDuck
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Modano is a lock, IMO.
His Selke voting record is severely underrated due to playing with Lehtinen.
Just a defining player of his generation.

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11-18-2010, 10:00 PM
  #52
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Do people really think he shouldn't get in?

This is the hockey hall of fame!!! They let pretty much any star get in...

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11-18-2010, 10:27 PM
  #53
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Mike Modano will make it into the HHOF no question. It might take a few tries depending on who he si up against. As there are better players then him but there is no question he deserves to be in the HHOF

Mike Modano's career can't be just about stats. His stats aren't the most impressive but with Modano it was what he brought to the game. He might never have won any hardware but that is because he didn't have one [eak year or amazing year. His career was his peak. He was a very consistent player. In the playoffs he was able to maintain that elite status and perform

Now I must say this though. To anyone who says that Mike Modano is better then Perreault. That is just laughable.

There is no way, not anyway that anyone could say that if you were picking one player to start your franchise with that in your right frame of mind would you take Modano over Perreault.

You can use adjusted stats to compare the two. You can try and say that because Modano won a cup he is better. I am a big propeonent to being able to perform in the playoffs but Perreault was no slouch when it came to playoffs either

If you don't think Perreault is that good ask the Vancouver Canucks. THe Canucks lost the coin toss. It took them until 1982 to get to the Stanley Cup finals. The Canucks have never been the 1st place team in the league

The Sabres who picked Perreault were a first place team in the league actually tied for 1st with the Flyers and Canadiens. Also to the Stanley cup final all in the same year only 5 years after picking Perreault first.

Now Modano will go down as a great player but by no means does it mean that Modano is even comparable to Perreault. People talk about Modano being the face to a Franchise. Well Perreault was the Franchise when he was in Buffalo.

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11-18-2010, 10:58 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Adjusted for era, Modano has a slight edge offensively.
I'm not a fan of adjusted stats. Never have liked them. The true way to judge a player is to compare him to his peers.

Top 10 scoring finishes:

Perreault - 3, 4, 5, 8, 9
Modano - 8, 9

Looking at it that way its a clear edge offensively for Perreault, not much of a case at all for Modano and it reflects the way many of us view Modano. He was a consistent point a game guy who really didn't hit much of an elite peak. Perreault on the other hand hit a very good peak.


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Modano has a better playoff track record.
He does, but not by much. Perreault was very good in the postseason. Buffalo had some deep runs in the postseason. The difference is Modano has the Cup, Perreault doesn't. Each of them also made a trip to the final while losing.

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How exactly is Perreault better than Modano?
Offensively he defeats Modano pretty easily. The defensive edge Modano has doesn't make up for it, nor does the playoff edge. Perreault was also sparkling in the 1972 Summit Series (why they never let him play is beyond me) and the 1976 Canada Cup. Only a broken foot stopped a dominant performance in the 1981 Canada Cup. If you are building your team from scratch I like Perreault without a 2nd thought.


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For the record, I'd rate Modano ahead of guys like Denis Savard and Jean Ratelle as well, and probably ahead of Dale Hawerchuk.
No offense, but it has got to be impossible to put Modano ahead of Savard or Hawerchuk. These guys were wizards offensively and Modano did not compare well to them in that category. Hawerchuk was good in his own zone as well narrowing the gap defensively with him and Modano. Savard was not elite defensively, but his offense makes him the better package. As for a playoff legacy, Savard would be a guy you'd probably rate higher in the postseason than Modano. Hawerchuk not so much, but he did his part with Winnipeg that's for sure.

Ratelle is an interesting case. But for whatever reason he gets underrated even around here. Sure his playoff legacy didn't get strengthened until later in his career, but people forget just how good he was offensively for about 10 years, right up with the elite. He was great in the late 1960s and has a season (1972) better than anything Modano ever did. Defensively, we all know Ratelle was fine.

I would never rate Modano over Savard, Hawerchuk or Ratelle. I think you're being extremely generous to him. Instead I have him in the HHOF but more at the Sundin level of centers and ahead of guys like Roenick.

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Old
11-18-2010, 11:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
If you don't think Perreault is that good ask the Vancouver Canucks. THe Canucks lost the coin toss. It took them until 1982 to get to the Stanley Cup finals. The Canucks have never been the 1st place team in the league
That's not an argument.

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The Sabres who picked Perreault were a first place team in the league actually tied for 1st with the Flyers and Canadiens. Also to the Stanley cup final all in the same year only 5 years after picking Perreault first.
Dallas won a president's trophy or two, didn't they?

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Now Modano will go down as a great player but by no means does it mean that Modano is even comparable to Perreault. People talk about Modano being the face to a Franchise. Well Perreault was the Franchise when he was in Buffalo.
Not sure you've said anything that convinced me.

The efficiency of the Luce/Ramsay/Gare line appears to have had more to do with the Sabres' success during their heyday.

If you want to talk more about that, it should be in its own thread.

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11-18-2010, 11:09 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
For the record, I'd rate Modano ahead of guys like Denis Savard and Jean Ratelle as well, and probably ahead of Dale Hawerchuk.
I disagree I could never put Modano ahead of guys like Denis Savard and Jean Ratelle or Dale Hawerchuk

No offense to Modano but what those guys did on the ice was more then Modano did. Modano will get in the Hall but when you look at the HHOF Modano will be at the bottom the all time greats. He will still be in the HHOF and that is not a slouch to be there. But just because he will one day be in the HHOF it doesn't mean he is equal or can be compared to just anyone already in there. Now you could make a case the he is better then some who are in there. But not Savard, Ratelle and Hawerchuk. As a matter of fact if you had to be better then them to be in the HHOF their are some that are in there right now that would not be there and Modano wouldn't even be considered

They are just in another class with all due respect to Modano

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11-18-2010, 11:10 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'm not a fan of adjusted stats. Never have liked them. The true way to judge a player is to compare him to his peers.

Top 10 scoring finishes:

Perreault - 3, 4, 5, 8, 9
Modano - 8, 9

Looking at it that way its a clear edge offensively for Perreault, not much of a case at all for Modano and it reflects the way many of us view Modano. He was a consistent point a game guy who really didn't hit much of an elite peak. Perreault on the other hand hit a very good peak.
You missed a 10, plus there was also 13, 14, 15, 16 for Modano. Perreault's resume can be beefed up with a 14, 15, 15, 15. For totals of:

Perreault: 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 14, 15, 15, 15.
Modano: 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16.

9 great offensive seasons to 7 doesn't look like such a big edge.

MS's adjusted points comparison does get the point across though. Perreault's offensive totals are no more impressive than Modano's given the era. If you don't like adjusted points, then compare as a percentage to the #2 scorer if you like, so that you can feel like you're comparing him to his peers.

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Offensively he defeats Modano pretty easily. The defensive edge Modano has doesn't make up for it, nor does the playoff edge. Perreault was also sparkling in the 1972 Summit Series (why they never let him play is beyond me) and the 1976 Canada Cup. Only a broken foot stopped a dominant performance in the 1981 Canada Cup. If you are building your team from scratch I like Perreault without a 2nd thought.
And who should have come out of the 1972 lineup for a 21-year old offense-only center?

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No offense, but it has got to be impossible to put Modano ahead of Savard or Hawerchuk. These guys were wizards offensively and Modano did not compare well to them in that category. Hawerchuk was good in his own zone as well narrowing the gap defensively with him and Modano. Savard was not elite defensively, but his offense makes him the better package. As for a playoff legacy, Savard would be a guy you'd probably rate higher in the postseason than Modano. Hawerchuk not so much, but he did his part with Winnipeg that's for sure.
Question - what percent of a forward's value do you think should be atributed to defense? 10%?

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I would never rate Modano over Savard, Hawerchuk or Ratelle. I think you're being extremely generous to him. Instead I have him in the HHOF but more at the Sundin level of centers and ahead of guys like Roenick.
I've definitely been convinced he's ahead of Sundin. You shouldn't even have to say he is better than Roenick...

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Old
11-18-2010, 11:12 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That's not an argument.



Dallas won a president's trophy or two, didn't they?



Not sure you've said anything that convinced me.

The efficiency of the Luce/Ramsay/Gare line appears to have had more to do with the Sabres' success during their heyday.

If you want to talk more about that, it should be in its own thread.
It is an argument that Perreault was so good that everyone knows that Buffalo was ahead of the Canucks by a couple of years just being lucky to draft Perreault

Yes Dallas won a President's trophy but the Sabres became an elite team in just there 5th season

Yeah Perreault had nothing to do with the success of the Sabres

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Old
11-18-2010, 11:21 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
It is an argument that Perreault was so good that everyone knows that Buffalo was ahead of the Canucks by a couple of years just being lucky to draft Perreault
Really? So if this holds true we should just be able to remove Perreault and compare the Canucks and Sabres, player-for-player and they would be equal, or maybe even the Canucks would be better. Let's see:

Robert, Martin, Ramsay, Luce, Lorentz, Meehan vs. Schmautz, Boudrias, Lemieux, Lalonde, Lever, Kurtenbach.

Robert > Schmautz
Martin > Boudrias
Ramsay > Lever
Luce > Kurtenbach
Lorentz > Lemieux
Meehan > Lalonde

Horton, Hillman, Schoenfeld, Pratt vs. Guevremont, Tallon, Kearns, Boddy

Horton > Guevremont (yes, even in his 40s)
Schoenfeld > Tallon
Hillman > Kearns
Pratt > Boddy

Also, Roger Crozier > Dunc Wilson.

But yeah, it was probably all Perreault.

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11-18-2010, 11:35 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Really? So if this holds true we should just be able to remove Perreault and compare the Canucks and Sabres, player-for-player and they would be equal, or maybe even the Canucks would be better. Let's see:

Robert, Martin, Ramsay, Luce, Lorentz, Meehan vs. Schmautz, Boudrias, Lemieux, Lalonde, Lever, Kurtenbach.

Robert > Schmautz
Martin > Boudrias
Ramsay > Lever
Luce > Kurtenbach
Lorentz > Lemieux
Meehan > Lalonde

Horton, Hillman, Schoenfeld, Pratt vs. Guevremont, Tallon, Kearns, Boddy

Horton > Guevremont (yes, even in his 40s)
Schoenfeld > Tallon
Hillman > Kearns
Pratt > Boddy

Also, Roger Crozier > Dunc Wilson.

But yeah, it was probably all Perreault.
I never said it was all Perreault. However when comparing Perreault to Modano. Perreault was the first draft pick of a new franchise. He was a star from day one. had more skill then you could dare imagine from a kid. He was a gem that only comes around once in a while. He changed the Sabres fortune. He made the team better and everyone around him better. Including the team in genereal. When you have a super star like Perreault it makes it easier to build your team.

When Vancoucer lost the coin toss and I am not making excuses for them or trying to make it sound like "Oh the poor Canucks" But we all know that the fortunes of the Sabres drastically improved more then the Canucks that fateful day

Now of course who knows what might have been that doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Sabres got the superstar center the every team wants and wishes they could have. He was one of the most skilled players in the game and could do things with the puck that very few could do or even will be able to do.

That is what Perreault meant to the Sabres. He gave them an instant star. A go to guy who made his team better. Modano was a great player in his own right but nothing compared to Perraul that is what I am getting at

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11-18-2010, 11:44 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
I never said it was all Perreault. However when comparing Perreault to Modano. Perreault was the first draft pick of a new franchise. He was a star from day one. had more skill then you could dare imagine from a kid. He was a gem that only comes around once in a while. He changed the Sabres fortune. He made the team better and everyone around him better. Including the team in genereal. When you have a super star like Perreault it makes it easier to build your team.

When Vancoucer lost the coin toss and I am not making excuses for them or trying to make it sound like "Oh the poor Canucks" But we all know that the fortunes of the Sabres drastically improved more then the Canucks that fateful day

Now of course who knows what might have been that doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Sabres got the superstar center the every team wants and wishes they could have. He was one of the most skilled players in the game and could do things with the puck that very few could do or even will be able to do.

That is what Perreault meant to the Sabres. He gave them an instant star. A go to guy who made his team better. Modano was a great player in his own right but nothing compared to Perraul that is what I am getting at
You're right that Buffalo got better, faster. They were just plain better. And Perreault was responsible for his share of that, but no more.

I agree that he had dazzling talent but his offensive results aren't as impressive as his skills were, and they came at a price - defensive play.

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11-19-2010, 12:04 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You're right that Buffalo got better, faster. They were just plain better. And Perreault was responsible for his share of that, but no more.

I agree that he had dazzling talent but his offensive results aren't as impressive as his skills were, and they came at a price - defensive play.
Yes I think we can all agree that modano was better defensively and that Perreault defensive skills were lacking to say the least

Hear is the the thing though. When does defensive hockey and defensive talent outweigh offensive talent. Defensive hockey can be tought. You can teach a player where to position themselves to benefit the team. You can technically teach a player to play the left wing lock and he will be good at it and become a better defensive player

You can't teach skill. You can't teach a player how to stickhandle at high speeds and deke out players sometimes a whole team. You can't teach a player how to score. You can try and put them in situations where they can succeed that is all

Now some need more teaching then others when it comes to defensive hockey. How many players that are considered really good defensive players in the league spent alot of their formative years and even junior years as an offensive star. Yet when playing in the NHL end up being a 3rd line checking center or winger

That is because like I said it is easier to turn them into an all round player or a checker then it is to be able to teach them more skill

So as much as I apreciate an all round play there are times that pure skill just is better then all the other attributes. Not very often is this true but with Perreault vs Modano this is how I see it

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11-19-2010, 12:44 AM
  #63
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And who should have come out of the 1972 lineup for a 21-year old offense-only center?
I guess you haven't seen games 4 and 5 of the Summit series? Being Canada's best player in the former and one of the best in the latter (as well as scoring a point in both games) should get you some ice-time. And even though I hate to use the official Summit series stats as proof, well, according to those he was a +2 player in those two games he played; I don't remember him being a defensive liability.

Perreault was a MONSTER internationally - even as a 21-year old. Period.

Count me in with those who think that rating Modano over Perreault is downright ridiculous. As a Perreault fan (who isn't who has seen him play?), I'm a bit biased, admittedly.

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11-19-2010, 01:05 AM
  #64
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Yes, Mike Modano deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame. There shouldn't be any question about that.

Top ten forward in the NHL for much of his career.

Top five center in his prime.

Great defensive player.

Stanley Cup champion.

One of the most consistent players to play in the nineties and new millenium.

23rd all-time regular season points.

24th all-time regular season goals

Key contributer offensively and defensively in the playoffs.

HE should get in as a first ballot hall-of-famer unless the competition is exceptionally strong.

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11-19-2010, 06:48 AM
  #65
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While Perrault and Savvy were superior in skill and offensive creativity, i don't know that they were better players than Modano.

As a Hawks fan and Stars hater, many times I wished the Hawks had Modano instead of Savvy! Especially when Denny would take a selfish stupid penalty or misconduct. I hope the hockey Gods don't strike me down with lightning!?!

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11-19-2010, 10:03 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Starchild74 View Post
Yes I think we can all agree that modano was better defensively and that Perreault defensive skills were lacking to say the least

Hear is the the thing though. When does defensive hockey and defensive talent outweigh offensive talent. Defensive hockey can be tought. You can teach a player where to position themselves to benefit the team. You can technically teach a player to play the left wing lock and he will be good at it and become a better defensive player

You can't teach skill. You can't teach a player how to stickhandle at high speeds and deke out players sometimes a whole team. You can't teach a player how to score. You can try and put them in situations where they can succeed that is all

Now some need more teaching then others when it comes to defensive hockey. How many players that are considered really good defensive players in the league spent alot of their formative years and even junior years as an offensive star. Yet when playing in the NHL end up being a 3rd line checking center or winger

That is because like I said it is easier to turn them into an all round player or a checker then it is to be able to teach them more skill

So as much as I apreciate an all round play there are times that pure skill just is better then all the other attributes. Not very often is this true but with Perreault vs Modano this is how I see it
There are irreconcilable philosophical differences here. Your valuation of a player's defensive ability as it pertains to their overall skillset and overall value is far different from mine.

I don't know how much we'll accomplish going back and forth on this.

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11-19-2010, 10:15 AM
  #67
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For the record, I'd rate Modano ahead of guys like Denis Savard and Jean Ratelle as well, and probably ahead of Dale Hawerchuk.
No way in the world would I take Modano over Hawerchuk. Savard is arguable but I think his offense outweighs Modano's defensive edge too.

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11-19-2010, 10:17 AM
  #68
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You missed a 10, plus there was also 13, 14, 15, 16 for Modano. Perreault's resume can be beefed up with a 14, 15, 15, 15. For totals of:

Perreault: 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 14, 15, 15, 15.
Modano: 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16.

9 great offensive seasons to 7 doesn't look like such a big edge.
yeah as long as 3=8 and 4=9 and 5=10 and 8=13 and 9=14 there isn't much of an edge.. oh wait.

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11-19-2010, 10:35 AM
  #69
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yeah as long as 3=8 and 4=9 and 5=10 and 8=13 and 9=14 there isn't much of an edge.. oh wait.
seriously, look at the difference in points between 3rd and 8th, 4th and 9th, 5th and 10th, etc, in average seasons. It's not very much.

In Perreault's career, the differences were 17%, 14%, and 10%.

In Modano's career, the differences were 9%, 8%, and 7%.

So generally, all it would have taken is 7-9% more points Modano's peak years, to have a laundry list of offensive placements to match Perreault's. Except he wouldn't just be matching Perreault, he'd be exceeding it, considering the much deeper globally fed talent pool he was playing in, and the lack of a WHA to water down Modano's league. So what's the real difference? 2%? 0? Is Modano already ahead before we start?

Regardless, this difference can easily be made up by defensive play.

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11-19-2010, 10:45 AM
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seriously, look at the difference in points between 3rd and 8th, 4th and 9th, 5th and 10th, etc, in average seasons. It's not very much.

In Perreault's career, the differences were 17%, 14%, and 10%.

In Modano's career, the differences were 9%, 8%, and 7%.

So generally, all it would have taken is 7-9% more points Modano's peak years, to have a laundry list of offensive placements to match Perreault's. Except he wouldn't just be matching Perreault, he'd be exceeding it, considering the much deeper globally fed talent pool he was playing in, and the lack of a WHA to water down Modano's league. So what's the real difference? 2%? 0? Is Modano already ahead before we start?

Regardless, this difference can easily be made up by defensive play.
So let me get this straight. The way we normally use finishes is to get an idea of how strong a player was vs. his peers.

Perrault finishes higher and at the same time the spread during his time is larger but somehow you turn this into Modano being very close offensively still?

Not only that Modano was not a great defensive player his whole career by any stretch of the imagination.

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11-19-2010, 11:31 AM
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So let me get this straight. The way we normally use finishes is to get an idea of how strong a player was vs. his peers.

Perrault finishes higher and at the same time the spread during his time is larger but somehow you turn this into Modano being very close offensively still?

Not only that Modano was not a great defensive player his whole career by any stretch of the imagination.
Not all offensive finishes are created the same. The percentage of the leader or 2nd place often tells us a lot more. Secondly, illustrating the % difference between 3rd and 8th is a very important point, it shows how close Modano was to actually being 3rd. Would I rather have 9% more points out of a player, or infinitely better defense? The choice is easy for me.

Modano developed into a two-way player as opposed to being one right from the start, but that's much better than never becoming one, wouldn't you agree?

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11-19-2010, 11:42 AM
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I've always had my doubts about Modano's HHOF case. For me, it's always been a question of how often was he considered an elite, top-five or top-10 player in the game? 1996-97? Absolutely. 1997-98? He might have been the best player in the league that year not named Hasek (Modano was leading the league in scoring when he suffered an injury), but Modano missed 30 games. 1999-2000? Damn straight. But as we saw with Mike Gartner, and as we're about to find out with Mark Recchi, there's more than one way into the HHOF.

Modano's the tale of two careers: pre-Hitchcock and post-Hitchcock. Before Ken Hitchcock arrived in Dallas in 1996, Modano was a pretty one-dimensional player. He was one of the top goal-scoring centres in the league. That Mike Modano would have probably emerged as a guy who probably challenges for the league lead in goals for centres each year, and probably challenges for the Richard Trophy on multiple occasions. At the same time, he wouldn't have been a guy you could build a winning team around (my favourite pre-Hitchcock Modano memory is his ugly cough-up in his own zone in Game 1 of the Vancouver-Dallas series in 1994 a moment that just screamed "I'm hearing footsteps.") And he's a guy who, no matter how many goals he would have scored, the HHOF voters would have never supported him, unless he won several Richard trophies. Too many weaknesses. Too many strikes against him. Too much of a pretty boy.

Ken Hitchcock transformed Mike Modano. From 1996-97 to 2002-03, Modano was a rock-solid bet for a 35-goal and 85-point pace. Not the numbers that you would expect from a player with his skill level, but still impressive considering that playing for Hitchcock was like using a Bungee Run: you always had a harness strapped to your waist, pulling you back towards the defensive zone. And playing the way he did defensively, he became one of the most valuable players, and most valuable presences, in the league. He was a better player at 35-85 than he would have been at 45-95 the numbers he probably would have challenged if not for Hitchcock.

Here's the clincher for Modano's case: he was the building block, the franchise player, for a team that for five years was one of the best in the league. Five straight 100-point seasons. A Cup championship. A Cup finals birth. And a loss to Detroit in the 98 Western Conference Final that was the real Stanley Cup final. Yes, there were pieces added to the puzzle, most notably Nieuwendyk through a trade and Belfour and Hull through free agency. Modano wasn't the captain of those great Dallas teams. But Modano was the centerpiece, the guy that Dallas built around, and he was their MVP. Nieuwendyk, Lehtinen and Belfour were more valuable in the 1999 playoffs, but anyone will tell you that Modano was the organization's MVP.

It helps that he's done some remarkable things. He's tops all-time for American-born players. He has 500 goals and 1,300 points. (More than 600 goals and 1,500 points if you include playoffs). But what will get him into the HHOF will be the transformation of his game, his outstanding two-way play, and his status as a franchise player for a very successful organization that was, for half-a-decade, one of the NHL's model franchises.

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11-19-2010, 11:46 AM
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Nieuwendyk, Lehtinen and Belfour were more valuable in the 1999 playoffs
what?? God, no.

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11-19-2010, 11:51 AM
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There are far worse players in the HoF already anyway.

And he is an American. So it is 100% sure that he makes it. Probably first ballot too.

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11-19-2010, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
what?? God, no.
From the start of the playoffs in 1999, to the end of the playoffs in 1999, Nieuwendyk, Lehtinen and Belfour were the Stars post-season MVPs. Nieuwendyk won a Conn Smythe that was fairly undisputed. He scored six game-winning goals on a team who played in a lot of one-goal and two-goal games. (As I've said before, I'm not a big fan of the game-winning goals stat, but six GWGs on a team that won 12 one-goal or two-goal games is pretty indicative.) But there was some support for Lehtinen to win the Conn Smythe. Ten goals from a guy playing the game like that is huge. Take the source for what it's worth, but Hull called Lehtinen the best two-way player in the league. Lehtinen was terrific. He was the one Dallas player who was a threat (granted, a minor one) to Nieuwendyk for the Conn Smythe. When the best defensive forward at that time gives you 10 goals in the playoffs, it's huge. And Belfour was terrific.

Modano was fantastic in 1999. He played with a fairly serious injury that would have sidelined him for a few weeks had it happened in the regular season. (A wrist injury, I think). Anyone who still clung to the "Modano's a pretty boy" reputation was silenced in 1999. And he still led the Stars in point in the playoffs. It's just that Nieuwendyk, Belfour and Lehtinen were better.

If Dallas wins the Cup in 2000, Modano wins the Conn Smythe. (Although the case could have been made for Belfour). Almost from the outset of the 1999-2000 season, Modano was at his best. A lot of people thought he should have been the first-team all-star centre. Yes, 1999-2000 might be the worst year in the last half century for centres, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Modano was terrific.

Modano wasn't the playoff MVP in 1999. But he was Dallas' franchise player, the building block, and year-in year-out, he was their MVP.

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