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Reply to this statement about Bobby Clarke.

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Old
11-18-2010, 05:02 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah but in 2010 all fo the sudden Stevens to some who never saw him is a culprit. He won three Cups. In each of those three playoff runs he had at least one thunderous check. Even when the Devils went to the final in 2001 he levelled Francis and Willis. Intimidation works regardless of what people want to believe.

Plus the elbowing penalties would explain whether he was dirty. He might have had 10 in his career. That's it. It was always shoulders with Stevens, the way it should be. Derian Hatcher was dirty. Scott Stevens was not dirty. He was a competitor and a warrior and a winner. No one would complain if he was on their team.

To respond to a comment from someone about "what would you think if a Russian nailed a Canadian that way." Well, Kasparitis nailed Lindros in 1998 with a clean check that put him out. Whose fault was it? Lindros' fault, he had his head down.
It's off topic for this thread, but Stevens only had 4 regular season elbowing penalties in his career: http://devils.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=458170
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Known for his open ice checks, Stevens was known just the same for executing them cleanly, accruing just four elbowing penalties in the regular season over his NHL career.

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11-18-2010, 08:56 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah but in 2010 all fo the sudden Stevens to some who never saw him is a culprit. He won three Cups. In each of those three playoff runs he had at least one thunderous check. Even when the Devils went to the final in 2001 he levelled Francis and Willis. Intimidation works regardless of what people want to believe.

Plus the elbowing penalties would explain whether he was dirty. He might have had 10 in his career. That's it. It was always shoulders with Stevens, the way it should be. Derian Hatcher was dirty. Scott Stevens was not dirty. He was a competitor and a warrior and a winner. No one would complain if he was on their team.

To respond to a comment from someone about "what would you think if a Russian nailed a Canadian that way." Well, Kasparitis nailed Lindros in 1998 with a clean check that put him out. Whose fault was it? Lindros' fault, he had his head down.
Very true. People forget just how tentatively players played when crossing the Devils blueline if Stevens was on the ice.

The Devils built their team around Stevens and created trapping lanes to make forwards think they could slip through, then Daneyko or Niedermayer would close and steer them into a quickly closing Stevens. Everyone knew this, but still some were stupid enough to take the bait. It was a common thing around the league for players to say they were afraid to cross the Devils blueline and that they always marked when Stevens was on the ice so they knew when they had to be wary.

The fact that Stevens inspired such fear and reluctance to cross his blueline was a thing that deserved commendation. They played so tentatively when he was on the ice that they would often cough the puck up just to avoid him.

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11-19-2010, 12:06 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Briere Up There View Post


Stevens found a way to hurt guys legally, and the diaper segment of NHL fans can't handle it. The guy played hard but he never dished out cheapshots.

To the OP, hopefully this was your last issue of THN. That magazine is pure garbage.
Why is THN garbage? What other hockey publications are there to choose from that one should read instead?

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11-19-2010, 12:12 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Why is THN garbage? What other hockey publications are there to choose from that one should read instead?
In the internet age, it's not so much about sticking to one publication or source when you can gain much more insight and informed opinions by following the best of each.

Imo, THN is not complete garbage, they still have some guys that are worth the read, it's just that the rest of it is about on par with what you would find on an average blog.

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11-19-2010, 12:13 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Why is THN garbage? What other hockey publications are there to choose from that one should read instead?
Ken Campbell? Adam Proteau? Ever read these guys? I can't stand the pompousness, and specifically from Campbell, the bitterness of them. And they're responsible for huge swathes of the content.

I read hockey online because you're right, THN is the only option if you want a hockey publication. But I'm not subscribing to that crap.

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11-19-2010, 12:14 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
In the internet age, it's not so much about sticking to one publication or source when you can gain much more insight and informed opinions by following the best of each.

Imo, THN is not complete garbage, they still have some guys that are worth the read, it's just that the rest of it is about on par with what you would find on an average blog.
That's what I thought. I read it on a semi-regular basis and enjoy some of the articles.

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11-19-2010, 12:20 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
That's what I thought. I read it on a semi-regular basis and enjoy some of the articles.
Now if you're talking 20-30 years ago, THN was an invaluable resource that sported some of the best writers around simply because it was one of the only ways to get published.

Everything is mostly freelance now and the opportunities to get published are ten fold what they were.

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11-19-2010, 12:58 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by overg View Post
How tired.
Indeed it is tiring. Fans who look at a uniquely great sport that combines grace and physicality...and wish to diminish one.

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If we're not entertained by attempts to injure, then yeah, we'll complain.
Fans who get into the hearts and minds of hockey players on the ice....Psychic!

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Point being that tough and dirty doesn't make you a winner.
No, being superbly talented and having an edge is great. And it has made many unique winners. I love those players (as well as less physical ones). You clearly don't.

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Clarke and Messier weren't winners solely because they were dirty.
Find someone who suggested that.

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And they sure as hell shouldn't be respected because they were dirty....Clarke and Messier would still have been all time top 100 players without all of the nasty stuff, and the game would have been better for it.
They weren't dirty; they were chippy. They intimidated some. As I said. Both opponents and fans. Including up to today. Watch the Legends of Hockey segment on Denis Potvin. Watch what his peers say about him being dirty...and how "it made him great". Watch the reverence. Clearly, they disagree with you. Doesn't make your opinion "wrong"...but worth noting.

***

On a totally separate note, unrelated to the above (and it's just my opinion): whenever I see someone deem Scott Stevens "dirty," that poster's standing is diminished greatly. For, having watched him from age 18 through retirement, it simply is pure naive ********.


Last edited by Trottier: 11-19-2010 at 01:17 AM.
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11-19-2010, 12:58 AM
  #59
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I really don't specifically know that Stevens was dirty, I was going by reputation. It was just one of several examples of dirty <> bad that occured to me. You guys may be right.

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11-19-2010, 10:08 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
They weren't dirty; they were chippy. They intimidated some. As I said. Both opponents and fans. Including up to today. Watch the Legends of Hockey segment on Denis Potvin. Watch what his peers say about him being dirty...and how "it made him great". Watch the reverence. Clearly, they disagree with you. Doesn't make your opinion "wrong"...but worth noting.
This an absolute garbage argument. Whenever you see a legends of hockey segemnt whoever they talk about is the greatest of all time. Have you ever seen an interview on those segments where they say something bad?

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11-19-2010, 02:45 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Briere Up There View Post
Ken Campbell? Adam Proteau? Ever read these guys? I can't stand the pompousness, and specifically from Campbell, the bitterness of them. And they're responsible for huge swathes of the content.

I read hockey online because you're right, THN is the only option if you want a hockey publication. But I'm not subscribing to that crap.
Yeah Campbell is bad. He's right up there with Stan Fischler as far as people you aren't sure whether or not they are serious with their opinions, because God help them, you sure hope they aren't.

Proteau once focused an entire article being disapointed than an NHL player hasn't "come out of the closet" so to speak.

Ryan Kennedy thinks the 2007 Ducks are the best team to ever grace the earth

Ryan Dixon? I've seen him enough on Off the Record to know he shares the same brain as the other three.

The magazine was once the best in the world. You lived and died by what they said. Then again, Bob McKenzie was the editor at that time. Now the writers all focus on getting all that "nasty" stuff out of the game like fighting and hitting and anything else where someone's feelings get hurt. Pathetic.

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11-19-2010, 10:17 PM
  #62
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Agreed. I had forgotten about Kennedy and Dixon, and LMAO at that Proteau column I remember reading that as well. Just a shame those guys have taken over.

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Old
11-19-2010, 11:11 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
This an absolute garbage argument. Whenever you see a legends of hockey segemnt whoever they talk about is the greatest of all time. Have you ever seen an interview on those segments where they say something bad?


Let's see. You do not agree with my opinion, so....

...it's an "absolute garbage argument".

How respectful. How enlightened.

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11-20-2010, 12:16 AM
  #64
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He was basically the league's best defensive center, best playmaking center, and most gutless cheapshot puke all at the same time.

Great player, but as I've said before I find it baffling how people lambaste Claude Lemieux for how he played but lionize Bobby Clarke for doing the exact same thing.

To me, Clarke's achievements (like those of Lemieux and Ulf Samuelsson) lose much of their lustre because of how he played. He wasn't a tough but stand-up player like Howe or Trottier. He was a flat-out rat who was possibly the dirtiest player with his stick of the modern era.
Clarke gets a pass from many, and not rightly so IMO, because it happened in the 72 series which some people treat like the Bible or the 10 commandments for some nostalgic reason.

Clarke was a great player but is over rated due mostly to his 3 Harts IMO.

I can see his 76 Hart being legit but Orr really should have won his other 2 Harts IMO.

Also Clarke's peak happens when the NHL expands to 16 teams in 73 and is up to 18 teams in 76.

The closer you look at him the less great he looks. Still a great player but over rated just like Messier IMO.

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11-20-2010, 12:17 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Let's see. You do not agree with my opinion, so....

...it's an "absolute garbage argument".

How respectful. How enlightened.
He does have a point though those segments are "love ins" and not very objective or helpful IMO.

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11-20-2010, 12:50 AM
  #66
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Actually, from what I've read from his contemporaries, that title would probably go to Wayne Cashman, with Ed Van Impe coming in a close second.

Not to say that Clarke wasn't in the top 5.

In regards to the OP, he was a great player and a dirty stinkin' rat. Like I said in another thread... if I was playing the aliens with the fate of Earth at stake, Bobby Clarke would definitely be on my team.
Any list I have ever seen or read has Clarke on or at the top and many other players above Cashman. Ed Van Impe is an interesting choice also, but he is really known for the "other" dirty play on Kharlamov not as one of the dirtiest players of that era even though he was dirty as well.

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11-20-2010, 01:30 AM
  #67
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He does have a point though those segments are "love ins" and not very objective or helpful IMO.
Perhaps in your mind "having a point" gives one license to be disrespectful of a differing point of view?

I never challenged (nor insulted) his point of view. Had it been presented sans the boorishness, it would have merited a substantive reply.

And PS - anyone alive and possessing two eyes and a brain during Denis Potvin's career knows that meanness was part of the Hall of Fame game he brought to the ice nightly, an important, positive part. The point raised about those segments is fair, though extremely cynical. Sure they are littered with accolades...but that does not mean there is not truth behind them. Put it this way: when Nik Lidstrom's is done someday, his peers won't be raving about his physical toughness, they will be raving about other aspects of his game.

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11-20-2010, 01:56 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Perhaps in your mind "having a point" gives one license to be disrespectful of a differing point of view?

I never challenged (nor insulted) his point of view. Had it been presented sans the boorishness, it would have merited a substantive reply.

And PS - anyone alive and possessing two eyes and a brain during Denis Potvin's career knows that meanness was part of the Hall of Fame game he brought to the ice nightly, an important, positive part. The point raised about those segments is fair, though extremely cynical. Sure they are littered with accolades...but that does not mean there is not truth behind them. Put it this way: when Nik Lidstrom's is done someday, his peers won't be raving about his physical toughness, they will be raving about other aspects of his game.
I was only referring to the hockey's segments which are like love ins

Guys need to be respectful of other opinions all the time I'm in full agreement of that and he did overstate himself in the original quote that you are referring to although I'm pretty tolerant of sarcasm myself.

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11-20-2010, 04:37 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Perhaps in your mind "having a point" gives one license to be disrespectful of a differing point of view?

I never challenged (nor insulted) his point of view. Had it been presented sans the boorishness, it would have merited a substantive reply.

And PS - anyone alive and possessing two eyes and a brain during Denis Potvin's career knows that meanness was part of the Hall of Fame game he brought to the ice nightly, an important, positive part. The point raised about those segments is fair, though extremely cynical. Sure they are littered with accolades...but that does not mean there is not truth behind them. Put it this way: when Nik Lidstrom's is done someday, his peers won't be raving about his physical toughness, they will be raving about other aspects of his game.
If you took offense, Im sorry but it was a garbage argument. Would have been like referencing to Cherry when talking about Bobby Orr. Not really the most unbiased source.

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12-25-2010, 04:46 PM
  #70
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The Hockey News in their Top 100 Players All-Time magazine voted Bobby Clarke as 9th greatest center ever. Behind Yzerman and ahead of Sakic

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12-25-2010, 06:07 PM
  #71
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Clarkie was a great competitor. A guy you would kill to have on your team. There isn't anything he wouldn't do to win
Do you say the same thing of Ulf Samuelsson?

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12-26-2010, 10:55 AM
  #72
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This an absolute garbage argument. Whenever you see a legends of hockey segemnt whoever they talk about is the greatest of all time. Have you ever seen an interview on those segments where they say something bad?
The legends of hockey segments are pure cheer leading sessions and should be viewed as such

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12-26-2010, 11:10 AM
  #73
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The legends of hockey segments are pure cheer leading sessions and should be viewed as such
They should be "viewed" as the greats talking about and relating their experiences of other greats and the genuine awe they say it with.

Why do you even participate in the History section?
You seem to have nothing but contempt for it.

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12-26-2010, 01:42 PM
  #74
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Do you say the same thing of Ulf Samuelsson?
If he would have won two Hart Trophies maybe think about it

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12-26-2010, 10:39 PM
  #75
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Why do you even participate in the History section?
You seem to have nothing but contempt for it.
Kind have wondered about that myself.

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