HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Doug Harvey or Bobby Orr: Bigger Position Changer

View Poll Results: Who had the bigger influence on how today's NHLers play the position?
Doug Harvey 5 20.00%
Bobby Orr 20 80.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-17-2010, 04:12 PM
  #1
bluemandan
Ya Ma Goo!
 
bluemandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,579
vCash: 500
Doug Harvey or Bobby Orr: Bigger Position Changer

I am WAY too young to have seen either of these players play. (I'm 26.) Yet I hear a lot about how both of these player revolutionized the position of defensemen in hockey. So my question for those who may have seen one or both play is: Who was a bigger influence in how today's NHL players play the position?

bluemandan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2010, 04:14 PM
  #2
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
I have no idea how Doug Harvey changed the position and I imagine most people here don't, so before a poll a little education from someone who knows would be good.

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2010, 04:30 PM
  #3
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 20,413
vCash: 500
Well...
The thing I wonder is -- how does a guy like Orr was much different than a guy like Shore?

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-17-2010, 04:58 PM
  #4
Crosbyfan
Registered User
 
Crosbyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,596
vCash: 500
By far Orr has more influence... and by far modern defencemen, even offensive puck moving defencemen, that want to keep their jobs play a more balanced game like Harvey(or arguably like Orr after enough injuries to slow his game from superhuman to merely great)


Last edited by Crosbyfan: 11-17-2010 at 05:03 PM.
Crosbyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 09:59 AM
  #5
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,752
vCash: 500
Position Evolution

Orr built on what Shore and Harvey had contributed. Orr`s biggest influence was the incredible skating that he brought to the game. This changed the way the position was viewed. Kids that were exceptional skating started playing defense after Orr showed the impact that a great skating defenseman could have.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 01:12 PM
  #6
tony d
Thanks for memories
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,266
vCash: 500
Bobby Orr

tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 01:49 PM
  #7
bluemandan
Ya Ma Goo!
 
bluemandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,579
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
I have no idea how Doug Harvey changed the position and I imagine most people here don't, so before a poll a little education from someone who knows would be good.
Well, I am certainly not the one to be doing the educating. That's kinda why I posted the poll.

Also, I didn't know much to anything about Eddie Shore or I probably would have included him in the poll.

I would imagine that most people on these boards (myself definitely included) are too young to have seen these players, or know much about them. But defense is my favorite position, so I am trying to learn more.

Here are a couple of links from the Legends of Hockey website:

Doug Harvey: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/...onep197301.htm

Bobby Orr: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/...onep197902.htm

Eddie Shore: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/...onep194705.htm

bluemandan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 02:08 PM
  #8
lextune
I'm too old for this
 
lextune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Country: United States
Posts: 9,490
vCash: 50
I would sum it up this way:

To fully appreciate Harvey's greatness you needed to have some level of hockey understanding.

You could take a guy off the street that had never seen a hockey game in his life to see Shore (or Orr) and he would say;
"Wow, that number 2 (or 4) is something else out there."

lextune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 03:03 PM
  #9
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,812
vCash: 500
Well, there's actually some good video of Doug Harvey.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkcH6jsqJE0

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 03:24 PM
  #10
bluemandan
Ya Ma Goo!
 
bluemandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,579
vCash: 500
Are these off base for contribution to how the position is played:

Shore: offensive ability

Harvey: controlling the pace of the game

Orr: skating ability

bluemandan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2010, 06:44 PM
  #11
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,812
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Shore: offensive ability
Hasn't there always been offensive defensemen?

Jack Campbell, Mike Grant, Hod Stuart, Cyclone Taylor, Lester Patrick, Frank Patrick, Sprague Cleghorn, Didier Pitre, HArry Cameron, Lloyd Cook, Art Duncan, Joe Simpson, .... there's always been rushers from the blueline.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 06:58 AM
  #12
FiveForDrawingBlood
Registered User
 
FiveForDrawingBlood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,477
vCash: 500
Canadiens 1958....was that you on FAN590 this morning? Talking about New Year's Eve game 1975

FiveForDrawingBlood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 09:17 AM
  #13
steve141
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 524
vCash: 500
I'm surprised that this is such a big win for Orr. I would really appreciate if the people who voted Orr could explain why he changed the position more.

In terms of influence Orr I think Orr is similar to Hasek. Hasek was the best goalie in the world for several years, and I'm sure lots of young goalies tried to emulate him. The problem is that you can't really play like Hasek if you don't have Haseks gymnastic ability and general hockey sense.

Same thing with Orr. Very few defencemen (Coffey, Bourque and a handful of other players) can rush the puck even remotely like Orr. Most offensive defencemen today rely on good passing rather than rushing. From the videos I've seen I'd say even Harvey might have been a better rusher than most offensive defencemen today.

Nicklas Lidstrom, the top defenceman of the last decade, is a great scater, but scates nothing like Orr. Orr would frequently rush up, and then rush home. Many defencemen of today tend to scate backwards instead of rushing home.

So while Orr's influence was clear on the young players in the 80s I'm not so sure where I see Orr in the play of today's defencemen. In which way has he changed it more than Harvey?

Harvey perfected two plays that all modern defencemen try to emulate:

1) Great first pass. Prior to Harvey defencemen who grabbed the puck would often blindly slap it forward or try to rush it. Harvey would hold on to it and make a quick fire wagon transition pass instead. Scouts today look for defencemen with a good first pass.

2) Powerplay quarterback. Harvey ran one of the best powerplay units ever.

steve141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 09:55 AM
  #14
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,193
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
I'm surprised that this is such a big win for Orr. I would really appreciate if the people who voted Orr could explain why he changed the position more.

In terms of influence Orr I think Orr is similar to Hasek. Hasek was the best goalie in the world for several years, and I'm sure lots of young goalies tried to emulate him. The problem is that you can't really play like Hasek if you don't have Haseks gymnastic ability and general hockey sense.

Same thing with Orr. Very few defencemen (Coffey, Bourque and a handful of other players) can rush the puck even remotely like Orr. Most offensive defencemen today rely on good passing rather than rushing. From the videos I've seen I'd say even Harvey might have been a better rusher than most offensive defencemen today.

Nicklas Lidstrom, the top defenceman of the last decade, is a great scater, but scates nothing like Orr. Orr would frequently rush up, and then rush home. Many defencemen of today tend to scate backwards instead of rushing home.

So while Orr's influence was clear on the young players in the 80s I'm not so sure where I see Orr in the play of today's defencemen. In which way has he changed it more than Harvey?

Harvey perfected two plays that all modern defencemen try to emulate:

1) Great first pass. Prior to Harvey defencemen who grabbed the puck would often blindly slap it forward or try to rush it. Harvey would hold on to it and make a quick fire wagon transition pass instead. Scouts today look for defencemen with a good first pass.

2) Powerplay quarterback. Harvey ran one of the best powerplay units ever.
Yes, Lidström plays more in the sense of Harvey when it comes to breakout passes and playmaking.

Has any defenseman after Orr ever played like him? I'd say Harvey changed the way defenseman played while Orr changed the way we looked at a defenseman. Ergo I voted for Harvey.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 10:26 AM
  #15
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
I'm surprised that this is such a big win for Orr. I would really appreciate if the people who voted Orr could explain why he changed the position more.

In terms of influence Orr I think Orr is similar to Hasek. Hasek was the best goalie in the world for several years, and I'm sure lots of young goalies tried to emulate him. The problem is that you can't really play like Hasek if you don't have Haseks gymnastic ability and general hockey sense.

Same thing with Orr. Very few defencemen (Coffey, Bourque and a handful of other players) can rush the puck even remotely like Orr. Most offensive defencemen today rely on good passing rather than rushing. From the videos I've seen I'd say even Harvey might have been a better rusher than most offensive defencemen today.

Nicklas Lidstrom, the top defenceman of the last decade, is a great scater, but scates nothing like Orr. Orr would frequently rush up, and then rush home. Many defencemen of today tend to scate backwards instead of rushing home.

So while Orr's influence was clear on the young players in the 80s I'm not so sure where I see Orr in the play of today's defencemen. In which way has he changed it more than Harvey?

Harvey perfected two plays that all modern defencemen try to emulate:

1) Great first pass. Prior to Harvey defencemen who grabbed the puck would often blindly slap it forward or try to rush it. Harvey would hold on to it and make a quick fire wagon transition pass instead. Scouts today look for defencemen with a good first pass.

2) Powerplay quarterback. Harvey ran one of the best powerplay units ever.
Interesting post. I never got to see Harvey, and only saw a bit of Orr at the end of his career, so I can't really speak much about either. But what you say does seem to make sense - Orr (and the others in his category - Gretzky, Lemieux, maybe Hasek) all played on a different level which can't really be emulated by anyone else. So maybe they influenced the game in the sense that kids growing up wanted to suddenly play that possition, but not as much about changing the actual way the game is played - because no one else could really play it the way these guys did.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 11:21 AM
  #16
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yes, Lidström plays more in the sense of Harvey when it comes to breakout passes and playmaking.

Has any defenseman after Orr ever played like him? I'd say Harvey changed the way defenseman played while Orr changed the way we looked at a defenseman. Ergo I voted for Harvey.
Harvey didn't actually change the game or the way D-men play though.
He simply excelled in all aspects of the position, he was text book perfect.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 11:27 AM
  #17
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,193
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Harvey didn't actually change the game or the way D-men play though.
He simply excelled in all aspects of the position, he was text book perfect.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.
I agree with viewed but not played unless you mean the explosion of offensive oriented defensemen. No one could emulate what Orr did and no one played the way he did.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 11:30 AM
  #18
Jacques Trap*
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HHOF
Posts: 969
vCash: 500
Harvey revolutionized the defense position.

Orr revolutionized the whole damn game...

Jacques Trap* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:59 PM
  #19
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,573
vCash: 500
There was a more defensive mind set in the 50s and 60s. Tim Horton was told by his coach that he got one rush per game, and when he got to the blueline he was to pass it off. Kelly, Harvey and Gadsby put up some pretty good point totals in the 50s. Other than Pilote, there was very little offense put up by the D in the 60s. Harvey's influence?

Orr was the first D to lead an NHL team in scoring, but Park and Potvin followed suit soon after. The offense from the D took off, as did the overall offense play in the next few decades. Orr's influence in large part.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 03:24 PM
  #20
steve141
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
There was a more defensive mind set in the 50s and 60s. Tim Horton was told by his coach that he got one rush per game, and when he got to the blueline he was to pass it off. Kelly, Harvey and Gadsby put up some pretty good point totals in the 50s. Other than Pilote, there was very little offense put up by the D in the 60s. Harvey's influence?

Orr was the first D to lead an NHL team in scoring, but Park and Potvin followed suit soon after. The offense from the D took off, as did the overall offense play in the next few decades. Orr's influence in large part.
There is no doubt that the top defenders from about 1975 to the first lockout were very inspired by Bobby Orr. But the question was who had the bigger influence on how the defencemen play today. I still maintain that most defencemen of today play a game that is more modelled on Harvey than Orr. Rushing defencemen were not wholly uncommon in the eighties, but how often do you see a defenceman score a coast-to-coast goal today?

steve141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 04:07 PM
  #21
steve141
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Harvey didn't actually change the game or the way D-men play though.
He simply excelled in all aspects of the position, he was text book perfect.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.
Disagree. You are correct that Harvey did not invent the long transition pass, just as Orr did not invent rushing. But they both took it to a level that was previously unseen.

Harvey was one of the greatest rushers of his time, but it is his passing game which sets him appart offensively for me. Harvey came into the league just 18 years after the forward pass was fully instated. Offence was traditionally created by a combination of rushing and sideways passing. Even though the game changed drastically over the 30s and 40s the offence was still mainly created by forwards.

In comes the fire brigade. The kind of quick transition game that the Canadiens employed in the 40s and 50s was a big game changer that all teams had to react to. It was made possible by calm, deliberate passing from the defence. This fast transition game is now the standard blue print for all modern North-American teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.
Again, please be specific. Of course Orr has been tremendously influential, but please specify in which way you see Orr's influence more than Harvey's in the defencemen of today.

steve141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 08:43 PM
  #22
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Disagree. You are correct that Harvey did not invent the long transition pass, just as Orr did not invent rushing. But they both took it to a level that was previously unseen.

Harvey was one of the greatest rushers of his time, but it is his passing game which sets him appart offensively for me. Harvey came into the league just 18 years after the forward pass was fully instated. Offence was traditionally created by a combination of rushing and sideways passing. Even though the game changed drastically over the 30s and 40s the offence was still mainly created by forwards.

In comes the fire brigade. The kind of quick transition game that the Canadiens employed in the 40s and 50s was a big game changer that all teams had to react to. It was made possible by calm, deliberate passing from the defence. This fast transition game is now the standard blue print for all modern North-American teams.



Again, please be specific. Of course Orr has been tremendously influential, but please specify in which way you see Orr's influence more than Harvey's in the defencemen of today.
Specifically, he revolutionized the position and ushered in whole new thinking on what a d-man's role was in the offense as evidenced by the slew of rushing offensively orientated d-men that followed.

Jacques Trap summed it up pretty good I think...
Quote:
Harvey revolutionized the defense position.

Orr revolutionized the whole damn game...

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2010, 04:10 AM
  #23
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,193
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Specifically, he revolutionized the position and ushered in whole new thinking on what a d-man's role was in the offense as evidenced by the slew of rushing offensively orientated d-men that followed.

Jacques Trap summed it up pretty good I think...
The question was "Who was a bigger influence in how today's NHL players play the position?". Not how he influenced defensemen in the 70s or 80s.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2010, 04:52 AM
  #24
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
The question was "Who was a bigger influence in how today's NHL players play the position?". Not how he influenced defensemen in the 70s or 80s.

Good point actually, you're right, unlike Orr, you can be (and are) taught to play like Harvey.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2010, 06:50 AM
  #25
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,718
vCash: 500
Orr's biggest influence wasn't innovation but reminding people of old tactics. Harvey, I'm not sure he changed the game, so much as he played the position as close to perfect as one can. His biggest influence was probably that when he stood up to a coach, the coach backed down.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Nalyd Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.