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How much does a goalie impact wins and losses.

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Old
11-19-2010, 11:09 PM
  #76
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I don't think it is "trying harder" just learning to be able to be more effective in big-game situations... Some learn it and some never do. Clearly Franzen has figured something out Thornton has yet to... maybe it is just the ability to change your game depending on the situation.
Thornton gets far more attention than Franzen. I'll give more credit to the the defensive assignment covering Thornton like a kid on a Smartie than some make believe fiction that Joe doesn't know how to pass a puck in the playoffs.

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11-19-2010, 11:26 PM
  #77
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I don't want to make this about Joe Thornton but...

Weber, Pronger, Weber, Lidstrom, Phaneuf, Zubov, Pronger, Hannan, Lidstrom, Keith
Vokoun, Roloson, Vokoun, Hasek, Kipprusoff, Turco, Hiller, Anderson, Howard, Niemi

Niemi is kind of a combo breaker but I think that says something.

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11-20-2010, 01:27 AM
  #78
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Goalies impact a teams win more then anyone and they impact the teams loss more then anyone

It is the most important position in hockey. A great goalie will give an average team a chance to win every night. An average goalie will cause a great team to lose games. No position is talked about more in hockey then the goalie.

In the last couple years there have been average goalies that have either won cups or led their teams to the Stanley Cup. Although most of the times the winning team has one of the best goalies. However despite that nothing is more important then a hot goalie

The best way to show how a goalie can truly change an outcome of a teams future is like this

Ask the Montreal Canadiens how well Patrick Roy did in 1993. He pretty much carried the Canadiens and holds the record for most concescutive Stanley Cup overtime wins.

Ask the Buffalo Sabres. Without Hasek the Sabres don't even make the playoffs most times and definately don't get to the Stanley Cup final in 1999.

Ask the Boston Bruins who had to play against Ken Dryden all those years always making the big save when needed

Billy Smith the most consecutive series wins by a goalie in the Playoffs. The Islanders were a great team but how many cups would they have won without the best money goalie ever

The Philadelphia Flyers who never had a star goalie one that could win the big game and not let in those weak goals. I mean How many years had the Flyers been doing it all without a number 1 goalie. How many times did Hextall(His second go stint in Philly), Chechmanek, Boucher etc... leave in a bad goal at the wrong time

Ask the Ottawa Senators about Patrick Lalime. It wasn't that he was a bad goalie I mean he playwed decent in the playoffs except for one thing. Always leaving up that bad goal. How many years when the Senators were playing the Leafs and were acutally outplaying them or looked like they could win, and then Lalime would leave in that bad goal

Everyone in Vancouver remembers Dan Cloutier. How it looked like they were going to beat the Red Wings and Cloutier lets in that bad goal and changes the series

I don't like bringing up Salo but even though he was the winning goalie when they won years before his one bad goal totally ruined Sweden in 2002

In the end every one who has watched hockey for many years will remember the big saves that either changed the game or kept their team in it. Everyone will remember that bad goal that a goalie gave up that totally ruined the team's chances of winning.
A lot of these examples are one offs and in general goalies are like pitchers they often get too much credit for a teams success and often are the goats for a team failures.

To me there is no magic formula to evaluate a goalies impact because some variables, ie. a team's confidence playing in front of certain goalies cannot be measured.

Formula's are interesting reads as noted earlier but each goalie needs to be looked at on a case by case scenarios and broken down season by season and even game by game IMO.

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11-20-2010, 03:08 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Thornton gets far more attention than Franzen. I'll give more credit to the the defensive assignment covering Thornton like a kid on a Smartie than some make believe fiction that Joe doesn't know how to pass a puck in the playoffs.
Then go ahead and compare Thornton to Zetterberg - again, one has figured out to be as effective or more in the playoffs, despite coverage, the other has not.

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11-20-2010, 03:16 AM
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The difference between Zetterberg and Thornton in the playoffs is one point every five games, and because of Detroit's depth he doesn't get the coverage Thornton has gotten.

That's not to necessarily say Thornton has been as good in the playoffs, but it's not nearly the difference his PPG makes out. For one, people have the bad habit of comparing his regular season PPG to his playoff PPG, as opposed to his playoff PPG to other player's playoff PPG. Western conference players in general have much lower PPG in the playoffs because they only face good Western teams, which have the tighest defenses in the league, and I'd wager that Thornton has gotten more coverage in the playoffs than any player over the last five years. Scoring tends to go down a bit in the playoffs in general. And Thornton's high regular season scoring is unfairly held against him - I'd rather have someone who's 1.1PPG in the regular season and 0.8ppg in the playoffs than someone who's 0.7 in both.

The reason Thornton started scoring last year is that we finally had depth so the defenses on the other team could be split. No one remembers Joe Pavelski getting 0 points in 2009 or the fact that Thornton and Cheechoo were the entire team in the early years, not hard for Pronger to shut him down that way.

There's reasons that are his fault too though, like the fact that he isn't as physical as he could be and that he needs a lot of space and time to make the types of plays he likes to make, where the playoffs give you less space and require more physicality. But it's not because he doesn't care as much or some folk stuff like that.


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11-20-2010, 03:16 AM
  #81
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I'm not denying that there's something there in at least some of those cases. A willingness to take risk or become exhausted, maybe, there's lots of possibilities. People don't usually say that though, naming concrete things like you. They just have this vague idea that if the game is important the players magically gets better. That's the idea that bothers me. There's no being better in big games, just being better at things in big games, or being willing to do certain things in big games.
I'll agree - and maybe it is even an indictment of their regular season play, but to use an example - Forsberg was much more willing to go into the high traffic areas to take a shot than he was in the regular season.

But in regards to goalies, the SV% posted in tight games, well above and beyond their average SV% shows they were able to clamp down when it mattered most.

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11-20-2010, 03:22 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I'll agree - and maybe it is even an indictment of their regular season play, but to use an example - Forsberg was much more willing to go into the high traffic areas to take a shot than he was in the regular season.

But in regards to goalies, the SV% posted in tight games, well above and beyond their average SV% shows they were able to clamp down when it mattered most.
I'm glad you see where I'm coming from.

However, in general scoring goes down in the playoffs and every goalie's save percentage goes up. That suggests that it's not the goalies themselves but the way teams play. If we had some data showing that certain goalies had a much higher improvement than others that would be meaningful, but it looks to me like what we're seeing isn't the goalies improving but team strategies adjusting.

I find the idea of clutchness for a skater more believable than goaltenders, honestly. It's possible to risk injury, exhaust yourself, etc. and do things that wouldn't be worth the cost in the regular season. I can't imagine what a goaltender could do in the playoffs that they couldn't do in the regular season - if they have a "clutch" mode why wouldn't they want to be like that all year?


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11-20-2010, 03:24 AM
  #83
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The difference between Zetterberg and Thornton in the playoffs is one point every five games, and because of Detroit's depth he doesn't get the coverage Thornton has gotten.

That's not to necessarily say Thornton has been as good in the, but it's not nearly the difference his PPG makes out. Western conference players in general have much lower PPG in the playoffs because they only face good Western teams, which have the tighest defenses in the league, and I'd wager that Thornton has gotten more coverage in the playoffs than any player over the last five years.

There's reasons that are his fault too though, like the fact that he isn't as physical as he could be and that he needs a lot of space and time to make the types of plays he likes to make, where the playoffs give you less space and require more physicality.
I'm comparing post-season PPG vs. Regular season PPG of these individual players - Thornton shows a huge drop vs.. Zetterberg, and to say San Jose has suffered from a lack of offensive depth, allowing other teams to focus exclusively on Thornton, is not true. San Jose has consistently had scoring depth since the lockout.

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11-20-2010, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I'm comparing post-season PPG vs. Regular season PPG of these individual players - Thornton shows a huge drop vs.. Zetterberg, and to say San Jose has suffered from a lack of offensive depth, allowing other teams to focus exclusively on Thornton, is not true. San Jose has consistently had scoring depth since the lockout.
Oh really? In 2009 when the Ducks eliminated us in the first round, guess who had the second most points on the team to Thornton? Rob Blake. Here's how our super clutch playoff heroes did.

Setoguchi: 3 points in 6 games.
Pavelski: 1 point in 6 games.
Clowe: 2 points in 6 games.

But it's easy when you're out of the spotlight. Everyone remembers your victories and forgets when you weren't there. Everyone blames the franchise player.

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11-20-2010, 03:39 AM
  #85
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Oh really? In 2009 when the Ducks eliminated us in the first round, guess who had the second most points on the team to Thornton? Rob Blake. Here's how our super clutch playoff heroes did.

Setoguchi: 3 points in 6 games.
Pavelski: 1 point in 6 games.
Clowe: 2 points in 6 games.

But it's easy when you're out of the spotlight. Everyone remembers your victories and forgets when you weren't there. Everyone blames the franchise player.
I'm just saying, even in 09, and especially since the lockout, San Jose has not been a one-line team.

I'm not someone who blames all of San Jose's playoff woes on Thornton.


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11-20-2010, 08:16 AM
  #86
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Then go ahead and compare Thornton to Zetterberg - again, one has figured out to be as effective or more in the playoffs, despite coverage, the other has not.
It is far easier to shut down a play making centre who needs more time and space to be creative and also needs the time to look to make a pass than a goal scorer who is allowed break free from checks without handling the puck in front of the net, to bang in a rebound, or look for the stretch pass.

Datsyuk gets more points per game (assists mostly) than Zetterberg in regular season but in the playoffs Datsyuk has less points than Z because of that fact.

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11-20-2010, 10:12 AM
  #87
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Sigh. LET'S KEEP THIS ON TOPIC.

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11-20-2010, 01:34 PM
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I can't find if this point has been brought up, and its controversial amongst a lot of people, but wins for goalies, like wins for pitchers in baseball is amongst the worst statistics in sports, if only for the reason that goalies and pitchers don't win games (well maybe if the pitcher hits and drives in runs, but that's another story for another day). We all know that we have seen players who lead their league or sport in wins but we all know that they were simply mediocre, we have all also seen players who have terrible win loss numbers despite being exceptional. For that matter we have also seen how wins are tremendously distorted by rule changes (Broduer and Loungo both passing Parent thanks to shootout wins).

Anyway back to the issue of their importance in wins and losses, I am of the belief that goalies have a greater impact on loses than on wins if only because a goalie can lose a game all by himself, but he can't win one all by himself. I know that goalies can score goals on very rare occasions, but can someone indicate to me that any goalie, at least in NHL history has ever been responsible for personally scoring a Game Winning Goal? Oh and Halak scoring on himself doesn't count.

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11-20-2010, 03:41 PM
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I can't find if this point has been brought up, and its controversial amongst a lot of people, but wins for goalies, like wins for pitchers in baseball is amongst the worst statistics in sports, if only for the reason that goalies and pitchers don't win games (well maybe if the pitcher hits and drives in runs, but that's another story for another day). We all know that we have seen players who lead their league or sport in wins but we all know that they were simply mediocre, we have all also seen players who have terrible win loss numbers despite being exceptional. For that matter we have also seen how wins are tremendously distorted by rule changes (Broduer and Loungo both passing Parent thanks to shootout wins).

Anyway back to the issue of their importance in wins and losses, I am of the belief that goalies have a greater impact on loses than on wins if only because a goalie can lose a game all by himself, but he can't win one all by himself. I know that goalies can score goals on very rare occasions, but can someone indicate to me that any goalie, at least in NHL history has ever been responsible for personally scoring a Game Winning Goal? Oh and Halak scoring on himself doesn't count.
Some great points! Well done.

I agree that goalies don't win to many games, but they can certainly lose them with poor technique or poor save choices.

I think the most important part of goaltending that people don't understand is that goalies are far more limited than players are due to the speeds of shots. Forwards and defensemen play most of the game within their human limitations where as goalies are very limited due to the speeds of shots that they face. People including experts don't realize that most scoring chances goalies face are humanly impossible to stop or beyond human reaction time. There is no human on this planet that can make a tracking save on a hard NHL wrist or snap shot from 14 feet way.

Most of the saves you see goalies make from prime scoring zones on hard shots are not saves at all but the puck simply hitting them and then they react by sticking out the limb it hit, so it appears they have made a great save. It happens so quickly that even the slow mo doesn't pick it up. If you have a PVR or pause frame by frame you can see the proof for yourself.

Brodeur made a save a few days ago on Kessel that even an ex NHL goalie even said was a great save with his right shoulder/elbow but the the super slo-mo shows the puck hits him, then he moves the arm to fool everyone.

These are more technical reasons that goalies have less impact on winning than the players do. The players are the stars of the game. Goalies can't stop what they can't see in time.

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11-20-2010, 03:42 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Loto68 View Post
I can't find if this point has been brought up, and its controversial amongst a lot of people, but wins for goalies, like wins for pitchers in baseball is amongst the worst statistics in sports, if only for the reason that goalies and pitchers don't win games (well maybe if the pitcher hits and drives in runs, but that's another story for another day). We all know that we have seen players who lead their league or sport in wins but we all know that they were simply mediocre, we have all also seen players who have terrible win loss numbers despite being exceptional. For that matter we have also seen how wins are tremendously distorted by rule changes (Broduer and Loungo both passing Parent thanks to shootout wins).

Anyway back to the issue of their importance in wins and losses, I am of the belief that goalies have a greater impact on loses than on wins if only because a goalie can lose a game all by himself, but he can't win one all by himself. I know that goalies can score goals on very rare occasions, but can someone indicate to me that any goalie, at least in NHL history has ever been responsible for personally scoring a Game Winning Goal? Oh and Halak scoring on himself doesn't count.
Well...Billy Smith is the only goalie to "score" a goal on an actual goaltender, the other goals were all empty netters.
I guess you would have to look up that game and see the details.

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11-20-2010, 04:28 PM
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Well...Billy Smith is the only goalie to "score" a goal on an actual goaltender, the other goals were all empty netters.
I guess you would have to look up that game and see the details.
Billy Smith never scored on a goalie, it was also an empty netter. In fact, the goal he was credited for he didn't even shoot. A player on the other team was attempting a pass from the Islanders zone and it missed everyone and it went in the empty net as they had pulled the goalie for an extra attacker.

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11-20-2010, 04:56 PM
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Billy Smith never scored on a goalie, it was also an empty netter. In fact, the goal he was credited for he didn't even shoot. A player on the other team was attempting a pass from the Islanders zone and it missed everyone and it went in the empty net as they had pulled the goalie for an extra attacker.
Fair enough, I just knew it wasn't at the end of the game so it was on delayed penalty, my point was moot anyway as upon further digging, Smith lost that game.

However while I was digging, I found out that Brodeur's second goal, which was an own goal where Marty, like Smith, was the last to touch the puck was indeed a game winning goal.
Also just for further reference, Hextall's second goal is the only shorthanded tally by a goalie and Nabokov's only goal is the only PP marker by a goalie.


Billy Smith, November 28, 1979 vs Colorado Rockies 4–7 (credited)
Ron Hextall, December 8, 1987 vs Boston Bruins 5–2 (shot into empty net)
Ron Hextall, April 11, 1989 vs Washington Capitals 8–5 (shot into empty net) Shorthanded
Chris Osgood, March 6, 1996 vs Hartford Whalers 4–2 (shot into empty net)
Martin Brodeur, April 17, 1997 vs Montreal Canadiens 5–2 (shot into empty net)
Damian Rhodes, January 2, 1999 vs New Jersey Devils 6–0 (credited)
Martin Brodeur, February 15, 2000 vs Philadelphia Flyers 4–2 (credited) Gamewinner
Jose Theodore, January 2, 2001 vs New York Islanders 3–0 (shot into empty net)
Evgeni Nabokov, March 10, 2002 vs Vancouver Canucks 7–4 (shot into empty net) Powerplay
Mika Noronen, February 14, 2004 vs Toronto Maple Leafs 6–4 (credited)
Chris Mason, April 15, 2006 vs Phoenix Coyotes 5–1 (credited)


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11-20-2010, 07:05 PM
  #93
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Some great points! Well done.

I agree that goalies don't win to many games, but they can certainly lose them with poor technique or poor save choices.

I think the most important part of goaltending that people don't understand is that goalies are far more limited than players are due to the speeds of shots. Forwards and defensemen play most of the game within their human limitations where as goalies are very limited due to the speeds of shots that they face. People including experts don't realize that most scoring chances goalies face are humanly impossible to stop or beyond human reaction time. There is no human on this planet that can make a tracking save on a hard NHL wrist or snap shot from 14 feet way.

Most of the saves you see goalies make from prime scoring zones on hard shots are not saves at all but the puck simply hitting them and then they react by sticking out the limb it hit, so it appears they have made a great save. It happens so quickly that even the slow mo doesn't pick it up. If you have a PVR or pause frame by frame you can see the proof for yourself.

Brodeur made a save a few days ago on Kessel that even an ex NHL goalie even said was a great save with his right shoulder/elbow but the the super slo-mo shows the puck hits him, then he moves the arm to fool everyone.

These are more technical reasons that goalies have less impact on winning than the players do. The players are the stars of the game. Goalies can't stop what they can't see in time.
Yes alot of saves a goalie makes are saves that just hit them. But why do some goalies make those saves and others don't? Why do some goalies like Patrick Roy or Martin Brodeur make saves that just hit them? Why does it look like a player when skating to the net just seem to shoot the puck right on the goalie? Why do some goalies make it look so easy and others like an Andrew Raycroft or Dan Cloutier make every shot look like an adventure?

That is because positioning is the most important part of a goalie. Being able to read the play is also another. Trying to see a shot from the point through a bunch of players is impossible. However if you position yourself right and make the net look smaller the chances of the puck getting through is that much harder. Just because alot of shots "just hit" a goalie doesn't make their job any less important or less impressive. We all like acrobatic and amazing saves but in the end it doesn't matter how a goalie stops the puck as long as he stops it

As far as a goalie winning the game goes literally that might be true as a goalie never scores a go ahead goal or anything like that. However those who say that a goalie can't win a game truly under values a goalie. Now you can go through the regular season and watch every game and yes their will be lots of games where the goalie didn't do much. Their are also games where they lose a game. But goalies are not like any other player on the team. Do the Penguins win every single game because of Crosby? Has there ever been a time when Kris Letang or Pascal Dupuis was the first star of the game or was the reason they won? When the Red Wings were winning their cups in the late 90's was it all because of Yzerman every single game? Every player can play a big part to his team winning on any given game

What seperates a goalie from any other player is if a defenceman coughs up the puck or a winger gives the puck up trying to enter the blue line. Their is usually another player that can at least make up for it. When a player misses an assigment alot of times their can be another player to pick up the slack. When a player takes a bad penalty there are 4 players on the PK that can make you forget about that penalty. Alot of the times the player that does this is the goalie. He has the most pressure then any one player. Even the greats who carry a team like Gretzky and Lemieux etc... don't have as much pressure as the goalie who protects the net for his team

Anyone who has ever played hockey knows what it is like to be outplaying the other team and carrying the play to only have that team score. How frustrating it is that it just seems every little mistake the team makes ends up in the net. How frustrating it is to face a goalie who is stopping everything. However we can all remember a time where we were playing and our goalie made that awesome save. Or was there every time we needed him. How it gave you confidence and a rush a spark. Whether it was organized hockey or just a game of pickup. Goalies have done this all the time. In the NHL it is even more the case

Now players can do this too however usually a player plays 45 seconds a shift. That is 45 seconds every 3 or 4 shifts to do something. A goalie plays the whole game at any time he can be called upon to make a save. It might seem like an easy save or easy shot but in the end it doesn't matter as long as he makes the save

Take Ovechkin probably the most dangerous shooter in the game. You can not tell me that if Ovechkin is coming in on a breakaway with the game tied, that if the goalie makes the save and his team ends up scoring later that he didn't win the game.

In the Regular season in the shootout when a goalie has to stop the shot to win, and makes the save didn't he win the game? When Bill Ranford forced the shooter to shoot wide in the world championships didn't he win the game for Canada? For that matter Hasek in the Olympics vs Canada I think many would say that Hasek won the game and was the best player. Goalies can win games most times though they are the reason a team loses.

Now in general any goalie can win a game for their team just like any player but like the great Centers or Defenceman a great goalie does it on a regular basis. Yes without Montreal scoring the overtime goals Patrick Roy doesn't win. Without Buffalo scoring even the Dominator doesn't get a win. Without Todd Marchant goal Cujo's heroics would have been for not. However I like to look at this way. Would the Montreal Canadiens have won the cup without Roy? Would the sabres have even made the playoffs without the best goalie in the world at the time? Would the Oilers have been in game 7 if it wasn't for Cujo. The answers to all these are no. Without these goalies we would not be talking about those teams. The greats like Roy, Dryden, Smith, Hasek etc.... did win games for their teams. Won more games for their teams respectively then they lost. So i don't buy into the theory that goalies can't win games for their teams.

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11-21-2010, 10:29 AM
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Yes alot of saves a goalie makes are saves that just hit them. But why do some goalies make those saves and others don't? Why do some goalies like Patrick Roy or Martin Brodeur make saves that just hit them? Why does it look like a player when skating to the net just seem to shoot the puck right on the goalie? Why do some goalies make it look so easy and others like an Andrew Raycroft or Dan Cloutier make every shot look like an adventure?

That is because positioning is the most important part of a goalie. Being able to read the play is also another. Trying to see a shot from the point through a bunch of players is impossible. However if you position yourself right and make the net look smaller the chances of the puck getting through is that much harder. Just because alot of shots "just hit" a goalie doesn't make their job any less important or less impressive. We all like acrobatic and amazing saves but in the end it doesn't matter how a goalie stops the puck as long as he stops it.
That's not what I am talking about. Positioning is the very basics of goaltending that we teach to 8 year olds.

I am talking about that save that looks like the goalie made, by extending a limb, so the crowd and the announcers go nuts but in fact the save hit them in the "positioning" stance or a blocking save position, then they move the limb in the direction the puck ricocheted to.

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11-21-2010, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
That's not what I am talking about. Positioning is the very basics of goaltending that we teach to 8 year olds.

I am talking about that save that looks like the goalie made, by extending a limb, so the crowd and the announcers go nuts but in fact the save hit them in the "positioning" stance or a blocking save position, then they move the limb in the direction the puck ricocheted to.
Just a matter of time with you before you get back to your redirect isn't it?
We're talking about how much goalies impact on wins, not how well they can play to the crowd or how no goalie is fast enough to actually react to a full shot within 5 feet.

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11-21-2010, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Just a matter of time with you before you get back to your redirect isn't it?
We're talking about how much goalies impact on wins, not how well they can play to the crowd or how no goalie is fast enough to actually react to a full shot within 5 feet.
And so am I.

People are fooled by the saves that look great and people who don't know these facts think they have made these great saves or a game winning save, when in fact they actually have not, thus effecting the impact.

Less impact.

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11-22-2010, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
And so am I.

People are fooled by the saves that look great and people who don't know these facts think they have made these great saves or a game winning save, when in fact they actually have not, thus effecting the impact.

Less impact.

Bull!

Whether they are supposedly not "fooling" you doesn't matter, they are "fooling" the players and the crowd.

Further more if you're going to sit there and tell us that the extra pizazz that a guy like Palmateer did, let alone some of the ridiculous saves Hasek made didn't pump up their teammates, deflate opposition and/or affect the mood of the crowd...then, quite frankly imo, you're either one clueless individual or have ulterior motives.
I suspect the later but I'm not dismissing the former yet either.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-22-2010 at 02:29 AM.
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11-22-2010, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Bull!

Whether they are supposedly not "fooling" you doesn't matter, they are "fooling" the players and the crowd.

Further more if you're going to sit there and tell us that the extra pizazz that a guy like Palmateer did, let alone some of the ridiculous saves Hasek made didn't pump up their teammates, deflate opposition and/or affect the mood of the crowd...then, quite frankly imo, you're either one clueless individual or have ulterior motives.
I suspect the later but I'm not dismissing the former yet either.
You just proved my point.

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11-22-2010, 05:08 PM
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You just proved my point.
I didn't prove anything for you, there really was a reason why "fooled" was in quotes.

I've seen some of your "analysis" video's.
Like one with Brodeur making a save on in a shootout.
First you talk about how no goalie can react fast enough to make a save in close.
You then show a perfect example of Brodeur coming out, blocking out the glove side completely and then upon knowing this he starts cheating to the only area he thinks the shooter has an opening on, the stick side.
The shooter goes glove and it's an easy save that Marty puts a little extra pizazz on.

Yet, when you break it down, you're saying how he's doing this wrong or that wrong or you're not sure what the hell he's trying to do here.
You sound ridiculous when anyone that has played the position at a higher level could tell in a second what he was actually doing.

All you talk or seem to know about are the technical aspects. As soon as anticipation or instincts play a role, you think it's wrong and you start spouting "I don't know what he's thinking there."

In a funny, backhanded way, you're at least admitting you don't know wtf you're talking about, even if you don't realise that you're doing it.

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11-22-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I didn't prove anything for you, there really was a reason why "fooled" was in quotes.

I've seen some of your "analysis" video's.
Like one with Brodeur making a save on in a shootout.
First you talk about how no goalie can react fast enough to make a save in close.
You then show a perfect example of Brodeur coming out, blocking out the glove side completely and then upon knowing this he starts cheating to the only area he thinks the shooter has an opening on, the stick side.
The shooter goes glove and it's an easy save that Marty puts a little extra pizazz on.

Yet, when you break it down, you're saying how he's doing this wrong or that wrong or you're not sure what the hell he's trying to do here.
You sound ridiculous when anyone that has played the position at a higher level could tell in a second what he was actually doing.

All you talk or seem to know about are the technical aspects. As soon as anticipation or instincts play a role, you think it's wrong and you start spouting "I don't know what he's thinking there."

In a funny, backhanded way, you're at least admitting you don't know wtf you're talking about, even if you don't realise that you're doing it.
Sorry about that!

Back on topic...

Ken Dryden retired after 78/79 winning 4 Stanley Cups in a row and then the Canadiens only got 8 less points and only three more losses without Dryden the next season. The kicker to prove Dryden was not an impact...

Jacques Lemaire the second best player who tied for the leading playoff scorer in 78/79 for the Canadiens retired the same season as Dryden.

Two of the best defensemen the Canadiens had missed almost half the season in 1979/80. Lapointe played 45 and the Captain Serge Savard only played 46 games that season.

Bob Gainey the best defensive forward ever, played 15 fewer games in 79/80 than he did in 78/79.

Guy Lafleur the best player in 79/80 only played in 3 of the 10 playoff games that season. Lapointe and Savard only played in 2 of the 10 playoff games as well.

And yet the team only lost three more games without Dryden.

Dryden had zero impact on the Canadiens success because his replacement Dennis Herron went 25-3-3 with a 2.51 GAA in 79/80. Herron the season before coming to Montreal went 22-19-12 with a 3.37 for Pittsburgh. This also proves the goalie can look good in front of a good team.

Even with all those injuries to key players and a retirement of the best playoff performer they lost only three more games.

Oh ya, Scotty Bowman left Montreal after 78/79 as well. His repalcements lasted one season.

Facts that are damning and prove that Dryden was not the goalie people think he was.


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