HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

How much does a goalie impact wins and losses.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-22-2010, 06:38 PM
  #101
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Sorry about that!

Back on topic...

Ken Dryden retired after 78/79 winning 4 Stanley Cups in a row and then the Canadiens only got 8 less points and only three more losses without Dryden the next season. The kicker to prove Dryden was not an impact...

Jacques Lemaire the second best player who tied for the leading playoff scorer in 78/79 for the Canadiens retired the same season as Dryden.

Two of the best defensemen the Canadiens had missed almost half the season in 1979/80. Lapointe played 45 and the Captain Serge Savard only played 46 games that season.

Bob Gainey the best defensive forward ever, played 15 fewer games in 79/80 than he did in 78/79.

Guy Lafleur the best player in 79/80 only played in 3 of the 10 playoff games that season. Lapointe and Savard only played in 2 of the 10 playoff games as well.

And yet the team only lost three more games without Dryden.

Dryden had zero impact on the Canadiens success because his replacement Dennis Herron went 25-3-3 with a 2.51 GAA in 79/80. Herron the season before coming to Montreal went 22-19-12 with a 3.37 for Pittsburgh. This also proves the goalie can look good in front of a good team.

Even with all those injuries to key players and a retirement of the best playoff performer they lost only three more games.

Oh ya, Scotty Bowman left Montreal after 78/79 as well. His repalcements lasted one season.

Facts that are damning and prove that Dryden was not the goalie people think he was.

...and not having Dryden worked out real well against Minny in the playoff's that year.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2010, 06:53 PM
  #102
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
...and not having Dryden worked out real well against Minny in the playoff's that year.
They were missing Lemaire's 23 playoff points from the season before because he retired. Lafleur by far their best player had 4 points in the series before Minny when they swept Hartford but he then missed the first 6 of the 7 games in the series against Minny. Lapointe and Captain Savard missed the series as well.

Sorry! Nice try though.


Last edited by Goalie Guru*: 11-22-2010 at 07:25 PM.
Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2010, 08:37 PM
  #103
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
They were missing Lemaire's 23 playoff points from the season before because he retired. Lafleur by far their best player had 4 points in the series before Minny when they swept Hartford but he then missed the first 6 of the 7 games in the series against Minny. Lapointe and Captain Savard missed the series as well.
You add Dryden to that list, you can't dismiss him because of it.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2010, 10:08 PM
  #104
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You add Dryden to that list, you can't dismiss him because of it.
Whatever makes you feel better!

Peace.

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2010, 10:37 PM
  #105
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Sorry about that!

Back on topic...

Ken Dryden retired after 78/79 winning 4 Stanley Cups in a row and then the Canadiens only got 8 less points and only three more losses without Dryden the next season. The kicker to prove Dryden was not an impact...

Jacques Lemaire the second best player who tied for the leading playoff scorer in 78/79 for the Canadiens retired the same season as Dryden.

Two of the best defensemen the Canadiens had missed almost half the season in 1979/80. Lapointe played 45 and the Captain Serge Savard only played 46 games that season.

Bob Gainey the best defensive forward ever, played 15 fewer games in 79/80 than he did in 78/79.

Guy Lafleur the best player in 79/80 only played in 3 of the 10 playoff games that season. Lapointe and Savard only played in 2 of the 10 playoff games as well.

And yet the team only lost three more games without Dryden.

Dryden had zero impact on the Canadiens success because his replacement Dennis Herron went 25-3-3 with a 2.51 GAA in 79/80. Herron the season before coming to Montreal went 22-19-12 with a 3.37 for Pittsburgh. This also proves the goalie can look good in front of a good team.

Even with all those injuries to key players and a retirement of the best playoff performer they lost only three more games.

Oh ya, Scotty Bowman left Montreal after 78/79 as well. His repalcements lasted one season.

Facts that are damning and prove that Dryden was not the goalie people think he was.
They gave up 36 more GA and only dropped 8 points in the standings, but came up 8 wins short of a Cup.

3 more loses or 11 fewer wins, which is more important?

The Canadiens didn't need Dryden to be a great team, but to be a dynasty and possibly the greatest team ever, they did need him.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2010, 10:45 PM
  #106
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
They gave up 36 more GA and only dropped 8 points in the standings, but came up 8 wins short of a Cup.

3 more loses or 11 fewer wins, which is more important?

The Canadiens didn't need Dryden to be a great team, but to be a dynasty and possibly the greatest team ever, they did need him.
They gave up 36 more goals because they were missing key players for long, long stretches and entire seasons.

I repeat...Jacques Lemaire the second best player who tied for the leading playoff scorer in 78/79 for the Canadiens retired the same season as Dryden.

Two of the best defensemen the Canadiens had missed almost half the season in 1979/80. Lapointe played 45 and the Captain Serge Savard only played 46 games that season.

Bob Gainey the best defensive forward ever, played 15 fewer games in 79/80 than he did in 78/79.

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 12:55 AM
  #107
NOTENOUGHBREWER
Registered User
 
NOTENOUGHBREWER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
They gave up 36 more goals because they were missing key players for long, long stretches and entire seasons.

I repeat...Jacques Lemaire the second best player who tied for the leading playoff scorer in 78/79 for the Canadiens retired the same season as Dryden.

Two of the best defensemen the Canadiens had missed almost half the season in 1979/80. Lapointe played 45 and the Captain Serge Savard only played 46 games that season.

Bob Gainey the best defensive forward ever, played 15 fewer games in 79/80 than he did in 78/79.
If we assume goalies have zero impact on wins and that Dryden was replaced fully by Herron the drop of 3 wins must be impacted by the players.

If losing Lemaire, half a season of Lapointe, and half a season of Savard only impacts a team negatively by 3 wins then can we conclude great defensemen and forwards have almost no impact on wins?

NOTENOUGHBREWER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 06:56 AM
  #108
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
If we assume goalies have zero impact on wins and that Dryden was replaced fully by Herron the drop of 3 wins must be impacted by the players.

If losing Lemaire, half a season of Lapointe, and half a season of Savard only impacts a team negatively by 3 wins then can we conclude great defensemen and forwards have almost no impact on wins?
The team is only as good as the sum of all the parts. The team gave up 36 more goals so they missed the players but they still won as often with the new goalie Herron. Therefore the goalie has a much smaller impact on wins and losses.

Dryden went 30-10-7 the year prior and Herron went 25-3-3 in 79/80 with Montreal as his replacement. So it didn't matter who was in net and since Herron's stats improved drastically from Pittsburgh the season prior, it proves that the goalie relies heavily on the team in front of him and not the other way around like the experts and fans seem to think.

Just ask Niemi.

Billy Smith won four cups in a row but his goalie partners had just as good as stats and records as he did paying an equal number of games.

Goalies are only as good or bad as the team in front of them.

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:07 AM
  #109
Infinite Vision*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
The team is only as good as the sum of all the parts. The team gave up 36 more goals so they missed the players but they still won as often with the new goalie Herron. Therefore the goalie has a much smaller impact on wins and losses.

Dryden went 30-10-7 the year prior and Herron went 25-3-3 in 79/80 with Montreal as his replacement. So it didn't matter who was in net and since Herron's stats improved drastically from Pittsburgh the season prior, it proves that the goalie relies heavily on the team in front of him and not the other way around like the experts and fans seem to think.

Just ask Niemi.

Billy Smith won four cups in a row but his goalie partners had just as good as stats and records as he did paying an equal number of games.

Goalies are only as good or bad as the team in front of them.
Explain Hasek to me. Or is he the only exception?

Infinite Vision* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:27 AM
  #110
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Explain Hasek to me. Or is he the only exception?
Love to!

He won nothing until he was on good teams.

Detroit was the best team in the league in 2001/02. The Wings only won 2 more games with Hasek and had only 5 more points with Hasek the Vezina winner than the season prior when they had Legace who went 24-5-5.

The Czechs in the 1998 Olympics were a great team. They only gave up 18 shots against Canada in regulation in the Semi's and 19 against Russia in the Gold medal game.

People don't know that. They think Hasek won that Gold for the Czechs when in fact the systems in their own end, and the traps were the stars of that show.

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:35 AM
  #111
Infinite Vision*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Love to!

He won nothing until he was on good teams.

Detroit was the best team in the league in 2001/02. The Wings only won 2 more games with Hasek and had only 5 more points with Hasek the Vezina winner than the season prior when they had Legace who went 24-5-5.

The Czechs in the 1998 Olympics were a great team. They only gave up 18 shots against Canada in regulation in the Semi's and 19 against Russia in the Gold medal game.

People don't know that. They think Hasek won that Gold for the Czechs when in fact the systems in their own end, and the traps were the stars of that show.
No I mean the entire time he was in Buffalo. What was his record compared to his backups, because I know his save percentage was way higher.

Infinite Vision* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 08:06 AM
  #112
Marotte Marauder
Registered User
 
Marotte Marauder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
LOL, exactly.
Never a WRONG time to make a save but... how about giving up a goal on the first shot, or right after your team has battled back to the game or...

For me it is often not how many saves, but when they are made (or more correctly not made) that impact the game's outcome.

Just stop the shots "you're supposed to" and make big stop or 2 and your team will be fine.

Marotte Marauder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 08:07 AM
  #113
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Never a WRONG time to make a save but... how about giving up a goal on the first shot, or right after your team has battled back to the game or...

For me it is often not how many saves, but when they are made (or more correctly not made) that impact the game's outcome.

Just stop the shots "you're supposed to" and make big stop or 2 and your team will be fine.
You're naming times it's good to make the save. What we want to hear is when it's not good to make the save.

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 08:26 AM
  #114
pluppe
Registered User
 
pluppe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 685
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Love to!

He won nothing until he was on good teams.
could you name one superstar who won the cup on a bad team?

if not, then what are you arguing here? that nobody impacts wins or losses?

Quote:
Detroit was the best team in the league in 2001/02. The Wings only won 2 more games with Hasek and had only 5 more points with Hasek the Vezina winner than the season prior when they had Legace who went 24-5-5.
and I am sure you are aware that Hasek was 37 and retired after that season. now explain his Buffalo years.

(and he was not the Vezina winner that season. so they had 5 more points with Hasek the "former" Vezina winner.)

Quote:
The Czechs in the 1998 Olympics were a great team. They only gave up 18 shots against Canada in regulation in the Semi's and 19 against Russia in the Gold medal game.

People don't know that. They think Hasek won that Gold for the Czechs when in fact the systems in their own end, and the traps were the stars of that show.
very strange reasoning. yes, the Chechs were not as outplayed as some would suggest. but your argument that Hasek did not play a large part is much much more at fault.

letīs look at the 2 games you mention:

one tie game with 18 and one 1-goal game with 19 shots against. Hasek made 36 saves and let in 1. that is a 97,3 sv%. had he let in 1 more goal the tie game his team would have lost. one more in the final and the game would have gone to overtime.

and it was not just those two games. his tournament sv% was .961.

the other 3 teams in the semis let in 9, 4 and 5 goals over the last 2 games. Hasek let in 1. they won. you do the math.

this is the exact situation were the goalies influence is enormous. both the stats and the results point to Hasek being brilliant. how could you possibly write this off?

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 12:01 PM
  #115
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
They gave up 36 more goals because they were missing key players for long, long stretches and entire seasons.

I repeat...Jacques Lemaire the second best player who tied for the leading playoff scorer in 78/79 for the Canadiens retired the same season as Dryden.

Two of the best defensemen the Canadiens had missed almost half the season in 1979/80. Lapointe played 45 and the Captain Serge Savard only played 46 games that season.

Bob Gainey the best defensive forward ever, played 15 fewer games in 79/80 than he did in 78/79.
Gainey missed 16 games, Lapointe missed 35, Risebrough missed 36, Savard missed 34. All were -2 on a team that was a combined +285.

This is proof that Gainey, Lapointe, Risebrough and Savard were costing their team wins that year by playing. Obviously, the team was better off without them.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 12:34 PM
  #116
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post

letīs look at the 2 games you mention:

one tie game with 18 and one 1-goal game with 19 shots against. Hasek made 36 saves and let in 1. that is a 97,3 sv%. had he let in 1 more goal the tie game his team would have lost. one more in the final and the game would have gone to overtime.

and it was not just those two games. his tournament sv% was .961.

the other 3 teams in the semis let in 9, 4 and 5 goals over the last 2 games. Hasek let in 1. they won. you do the math.

this is the exact situation were the goalies influence is enormous. both the stats and the results point to Hasek being brilliant. how could you possibly write this off?
Watch this and tell me who had the better chances and who was the better goalie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8q5s...eature=related

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 12:48 PM
  #117
Chalupa Batman
Mod Supervisor
 
Chalupa Batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,213
vCash: 500
Are you really basing your arguments on YouTube highlights now?

Seriously, this cherry-picking of data is laughable (not just the YT video, but in general), and if you don't bring something more rigorous to the table soon, then I'll have to conclude that this thread has run its course (or at least your chosen flavor of it).

Chalupa Batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 02:00 PM
  #118
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Watch this and tell me who had the better chances and who was the better goalie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8q5s...eature=related
Those games aside for the moment, everyone here is still waiting for you to explain the disparity between Hasak and his backups in Buffalo.
It's been mentioned quite a few times now in both this thread and others you have been involved in yet not once have you responded.

We're waiting.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 02:18 PM
  #119
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Those games aside for the moment, everyone here is still waiting for you to explain the disparity between Hasak and his backups in Buffalo.
It's been mentioned quite a few times now in both this thread and others you have been involved in yet not once have you responded.

We're waiting.
Ok, ok.

Hasek is a better goalie than Stauber, Trefilov, and Shields.

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 02:21 PM
  #120
Infinite Vision*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Ok, ok.

Hasek is a better goalie than Stauber, Trefilov, and Shields.
That's all? Come on.

Infinite Vision* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 02:50 PM
  #121
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Are you really basing your arguments on YouTube highlights now?

Seriously, this cherry-picking of data is laughable (not just the YT video, but in general), and if you don't bring something more rigorous to the table soon, then I'll have to conclude that this thread has run its course (or at least your chosen flavor of it).
That hi-lite package shows the better and only scoring chances of the game and it clearly proves that Hasek did nothing in that gold medal game. I have the game on tape and a junior goalie, heck, a midget goalie, would have won that game for the Czechs.

I find it comical that people get mad at me. I'm just the messenger of information that people have never been told about.

Get mad at the media and so called experts for not giving you the entire picture.

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 05:43 PM
  #122
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Ok, ok.

Hasek is a better goalie than Stauber, Trefilov, and Shields.
Ata boy, go on at length, post after post how all these #1 goalies are overpaid and there's virtually no difference between the starters and the backups and then when real evidence is presented you try and sluff over it.

C'mon man, your shtick is getting a lil old, don't ya think?

Listen, I'll even throw ya a bone here and agree that sometimes a goalie has had his stats inflated for this season or that season due to the strength of his team but your blanket conclusion that none of them are any good or any better than the guy backing them up is not only ridiculous but also quite ignorant imo.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 06:05 PM
  #123
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,611
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
I find it comical that people get mad at me. I'm just the messenger of information that people have never been told about.

Get mad at the media and so called experts for not giving you the entire picture.
Are you saying that every goalie in the league is basically as good as the next?

Why would this apply to goaltenders and not skaters, unless you're suggesting that the only difference between Sidney Crosby and Mike Rupp is opportunity and linemates?


Last edited by arrbez: 11-23-2010 at 06:22 PM.
arrbez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:57 PM
  #124
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,877
vCash: 500
and, better question, why would a guy who has devoted his spare time to the study of goaltenders (something he must clearly be passionate about) want to push the idea that they are basically all vanilla, with nothing really distinguishing any of them?

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 12:35 AM
  #125
Marotte Marauder
Registered User
 
Marotte Marauder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
You're naming times it's good to make the save. What we want to hear is when it's not good to make the save.
It's not about good or bad times to make a save. it's about when it is critical that the save is made. Leading 5-1 and giving up a "bad" goal is very different than trailing 1-0 after 1 shot.

Marotte Marauder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. Đ2014 All Rights Reserved.