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Old
11-18-2010, 05:24 PM
  #51
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#3...

I think I noticed on his goal aginst FLA last night that he has the appropriate moustache to be traded to the Hub today.

IMH(and sledom stated)O JoCo+TOR1 for BoGo is a green light. May be bad if Savy never returns... but he is exactly what the B's are missing a premiere young D stud.
Growing pains included please.

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11-18-2010, 05:31 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Gonzothe7thDman View Post
At the ripe old age of 20 years old, hes not living up to what hes supposed to be!?!? Its an accomplishment for an NHL defensemen to even be playing in the NHL at the age of 20. Most defensemen usually dont start hitting their stride until they are 25-27 Ill ignore the +/- argument considering he is playing on Atlanta. And his D partners are all trash except for Tobias.
Sorry, i didnt expressed myself like i wanted LOL obviously he's still very young and i was just going to say that "maybe he was rushed?".
You said he is already good, what im saying is that maybe he is not that good...yet.

Well Wideman is playing for a crappy team in Florida and looks like he's doing just fine.

Anyways, like i said in the 1st post i think it's an overpayment but i agree with MMB here, if you want him you'll have to overpay. I just think that since we are overpaying, get someone more mature.

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11-18-2010, 05:33 PM
  #53
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Aside from him being the 3rd overall, I don't really know what warrants the TO 1st... or even Colborne for that matter. Gudbranson will be the real deal, not this kid. He's looked scared and confused a lot of the time I've seen him. Maybe Wheeler and Boston's 1st, but that's about it.

I think Ryan Murphy will be the perfect fit for Boston. He can rush the puck up the ice like Mike Green, and can score from all over. He's also getting to be pretty good in his own end, unlike Mike Green. I say hell no to Bogo.

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11-18-2010, 05:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ACHISLING View Post
Our 1st and I do that deal.
This. No way I do it with Toronto's first, though. That's going to be Top 3, I guarantee it.

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11-18-2010, 05:50 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by happy View Post
#3...

I think I noticed on his goal aginst FLA last night that he has the appropriate moustache to be traded to the Hub today.

IMH(and sledom stated)O JoCo+TOR1 for BoGo is a green light. May be bad if Savy never returns... but he is exactly what the B's are missing a premiere young D stud.
Growing pains included please.
Ha! I guess not. Not even averaging a post per year!

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11-18-2010, 05:50 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpico4ever View Post
Aside from him being the 3rd overall, I don't really know what warrants the TO 1st... or even Colborne for that matter. Gudbranson will be the real deal, not this kid. He's looked scared and confused a lot of the time I've seen him. Maybe Wheeler and Boston's 1st, but that's about it.

I think Ryan Murphy will be the perfect fit for Boston. He can rush the puck up the ice like Mike Green, and can score from all over. He's also getting to be pretty good in his own end, unlike Mike Green. I say hell no to Bogo.
I think this may be what the debate boils down to essentially. Because the stated proposal of Toronto's 1st and Joe Colborne is likely the cost of acquiring Zach Bogosian. If one doesn't view Bogosian as a cornerstone defenseman (he's not quite there yet), then this deal seems ludicrous.

But while he may not be there yet, he's on his way (from what I've seen). And I have about as much doubt in him being a legit #1 d-man, as I do that Seguin will be a superstar scorer. That is to say, I have very little.

Considering that, I have no reservations about trading any piece that is merely potential talent. I can however understand that others have seen Bogosian and walked away with an impression of the kid that differs from my own.

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11-18-2010, 05:58 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I think this may be what the debate boils down to essentially. Because the stated proposal of Toronto's 1st and Joe Colborne is likely the cost of acquiring Zach Bogosian. If one doesn't view Bogosian as a cornerstone defenseman (he's not quite there yet), then this deal seems ludicrous.

But while he may not be there yet, he's on his way (from what I've seen). And I have about as much doubt in him being a legit #1 d-man, as I do that Seguin will be a superstar scorer. That is to say, I have very little.

Considering that, I have no reservations about trading any piece that is merely potential talent. I can however understand that others have seen Bogosian and walked away with an impression of the kid that differs from my own.
Agreed.

If anything this kid will be peaking when Chara retires. It would be nice for those few years before hand to have two top pairing shut down Dman of Chara and Bogosians caliber. Pair them with offensive defensemen and we have a top 4 that you win cups with. And then when Chara retires, Bogosian steps in and takes the #1 dman spot. Im not gonna try and fool anybody and say this kid will step in and fix the PMD problem, because he wont. But hes a stud defensively. And being such a young defensemen, hes got plenty of time to polish his offensive game.

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11-18-2010, 06:02 PM
  #58
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Bogosian is good, but any trade that doesn't include a legitimate nhl star or can't miss prospect does not warrant Tor's first rounder at this point, especially with Colborne as part of the deal.

Id go Colborne + Minn's second rounder and maybe a player like Hamill or Kampfer to seal the deal. However, if Shea Weber becomes available at any point i'd be chomping at the bait to see him in a spoked-b sweater.

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11-18-2010, 06:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TehWhale View Post
Bogosian is good, but any trade that doesn't include a legitimate nhl star or can't miss prospect does not warrant Tor's first rounder at this point, especially with Colborne as part of the deal.

Id go Colborne + Minn's second rounder and maybe a player like Hamill or Kampfer to seal the deal. However, if Shea Weber becomes available at any point i'd be chomping at the bait to see him in a spoked-b sweater.
Better fix this before 'nugs gets wind.

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11-18-2010, 06:04 PM
  #60
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I'm absolutely mind boggled at those who feel Bogosian has been a disappointment after 1 full NHL season. If Seguin doesn't score 90 plus are we calling it in on him too?

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11-18-2010, 06:05 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehWhale View Post
Bogosian is good, but any trade that doesn't include a legitimate nhl star or can't miss prospect does not warrant Tor's first rounder at this point, especially with Colborne as part of the deal.

Id go Colborne + Minn's second rounder and maybe a player like Hamill or Kampfer to seal the deal. However, if Shea Weber becomes available at any point i'd be chomping at the bait to see him in a spoked-b sweater.
Wind your watch 2 years and that what Bogosian was, and IMO still is. I dont understand how he plays 2 years in the NHL and he loses value? What is that about?

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11-18-2010, 06:06 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by TehWhale View Post
Bogosian is good, but any trade that doesn't include a legitimate nhl star or can't miss prospect does not warrant Tor's first rounder at this point, especially with Colborne as part of the deal.

Id go Colborne + Minn's second rounder and maybe a player like Hamill or Kampfer to seal the deal. However, if Shea Weber becomes available at any point i'd be chomping at the bait to see him in a spoked-b sweater.
How about you give it 1 year...and I'll give you both

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11-18-2010, 06:09 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by heelsox View Post
I'm absolutely mind boggled at those who feel Bogosian has been a disappointment after 1 full NHL season. If Seguin doesn't score 90 plus are we calling it in on him too?
Yeah, but his career-best is only 23 points.

It's also his career-worst.

Also... his career-only.

This is his third kick at the cat and his first was cut short due to injury (he was just a shade over 18 years of age at the time). Most defensemen that are and have been very good players would be on the cusp of starting their careers at Bogosian's current age.

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11-18-2010, 06:39 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by heelsox View Post
From the trade board for those who don't check it, but an interesting concept came up over there and wanted to see how you guys felt about it.

Boston gets Zach Bogosian
Atlanta gets Colborne + Torontos 1st.

Bogo's still on his ELC, which I'm not sure how that effect the Bonus Cushion, would his cap hit for us be 3.375 for that he achieved in Atlanta during the previous season, or would it be a clean slate for us at the 875k? If the 875 is taken and his bonus's go towards our cushion, very little salary would have to be adjusted than already needs to be.

But either way, his contract is up at the end of the year, we'd have the money freed up by then to resign him.

Interesting thought though for a former 3rd pick behind Mr. Stamkos and Mr Doughty, and a guy that some suggested be taken over Doughty.
too steep a price for me to pay... we all know chris pronger turned out ok as a high pick traded early... and so did wade redden and ed jovanovski to lesser extent...

the landscape is littered with young dmen picked high that fell so flat on their face its not even funny... from aki berg to our own lars jonsson, a high pick position for a dman is not as safe of a bet as it is for fowards drafted high.

even recent guys like ryan whitney... mike komasarek... jack johnson... they are shaky... inconsistient... joni pitkanen... one season everyone is high on these guys and the next they are crap.

dmen as a general rule dont get very consistient until they are 24-25-26 and alot of them seem to need even longer.

bogosian will be eligible for ufa before he actually becomes worth his salary again. we just saw this with wideman... a kid that can produce the offence that bogosian can, but is so shaky at other aspects of the game we ran him out of town.

im not doubting bogosian will be a stud one day... and if you were telling me this trade goes down in 5 years i probably am happy to make it. for now, its a safer bet that the toronto pick will be top 5 and give us a talent very comparable for bogosian for the future that will be easier to afford... and colborne is probably more likely to be contributing better value at his cost over the next 3-4 years then bogosian would be.

bogosian isnt likely to extend for much less then 4 mill a year right? that gets you quite a good vet from the ufa market. colborne is alot closer to 1 mill per year to provide scoring depth on a third line... 1 mill doesnt get you a ton of scoring depth for a third line unless you got a kid filling the role

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11-18-2010, 06:47 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
bogosian isnt likely to extend for much less then 4 mill a year right? that gets you quite a good vet from the ufa market.
Where in the world did u get that estimate?

Id also be curious to see Kirks take on Bogosian, if he happens to skim this thread.

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11-18-2010, 06:52 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by trenton1 View Post
Ha! I guess not. Not even averaging a post per year!
#4...

Maybe I should wait another year or two to reply... but I'm unemployed and the NHL is pwning me this winter!!!

BoGo will be a norris calibre Dman. It is unfair to compare/contrast him to Doughty at all, but the fact that they are often compared/contrasted is indictive of his ability. They are on diametrically differnt teams, one rising, one with a difficult identity to pin down.

But he isn't going to be traded he is a true centerpiece Dman, Waddell would be an idiot to send him anywhere... so yes if Chia were in pursuit I think JoCo and TOR1 is what it would take if not more.

He would bethe consummate Bruin, rough and tough and skilled...

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11-18-2010, 07:32 PM
  #67
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No. Toronto's first for Bogosian is a good deal for Atl he is up for renewal.

Colbourne, our first, and a prospect for him is a deal that I would do and Atlanta would be getting fair return on. You maybe add a 2nd/3rd just because our #1 projects to be 25-30.

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11-18-2010, 08:20 PM
  #68
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oops... wrong thread

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11-18-2010, 09:00 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzothe7thDman View Post
Some of you posters have no grip whatsoever on trade value. I do Colbourne and Tor 1st for Bogosian everyday of the week. You guys should try watching a player and learning about him via NHL scouts. Instead of making assumptions and following what the last poster said. Bogosian by many scouts was predicted to be better than doughty, ill take that potential over the potential of the Toronto pick.
so what your saying is becuase we don't agree with you that he is worth both Colbourne and the Tor 1st that we know nothing about him only you do???

Ya ok.

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11-18-2010, 09:10 PM
  #70
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so what your saying is becuase we don't agree with you that he is worth both Colbourne and the Tor 1st that we know nothing about him only you do???

Ya ok.
Yea, pretty much.

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11-18-2010, 09:13 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Gonzothe7thDman View Post
Agreed.

If anything this kid will be peaking when Chara retires. It would be nice for those few years before hand to have two top pairing shut down Dman of Chara and Bogosians caliber. Pair them with offensive defensemen and we have a top 4 that you win cups with. And then when Chara retires, Bogosian steps in and takes the #1 dman spot. Im not gonna try and fool anybody and say this kid will step in and fix the PMD problem, because he wont. But hes a stud defensively. And being such a young defensemen, hes got plenty of time to polish his offensive game.
Absolutely. Even if BoGo isn't able to be obtained, I hope someone who fits this profile is. That situation is exactly what will be needed.

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11-18-2010, 09:25 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Gonzothe7thDman View Post
Where in the world did u get that estimate?

Id also be curious to see Kirks take on Bogosian, if he happens to skim this thread.
not many top picks who had any type of success on their first contracts have been willing to sign for more then a single season on their second contract for less then this have they?

perhaps you can name me someone other then Jack Johnson who was like traded twice and swirled with all sorts of negative rumors

from komasarek to whitney to pitkanen to even our own wideman and giordano out in calgary... not all these guys are top picks, but none of them needed to accomplish much before they went into the 4 mill a year range.

an agent would be grossly neglegent to let his client sign for less on anything more then a 1-2 year deal if the kid has any potential at all to be a top 2 dman during the term of his deal

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11-18-2010, 09:34 PM
  #73
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I thought Bogosian was supposed to develop into the next Doughty under the tutelage of Craig Ramsey. What happened to that scenario?

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11-18-2010, 09:38 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by heelsox View Post
From the trade board for those who don't check it, but an interesting concept came up over there and wanted to see how you guys felt about it.

Boston gets Zach Bogosian
Atlanta gets Colborne + Torontos 1st.

Bogo's still on his ELC, which I'm not sure how that effect the Bonus Cushion, would his cap hit for us be 3.375 for that he achieved in Atlanta during the previous season, or would it be a clean slate for us at the 875k? If the 875 is taken and his bonus's go towards our cushion, very little salary would have to be adjusted than already needs to be.

But either way, his contract is up at the end of the year, we'd have the money freed up by then to resign him.

Interesting thought though for a former 3rd pick behind Mr. Stamkos and Mr Doughty, and a guy that some suggested be taken over Doughty.
I dont know about everyone else but I find great value in now knowing what some 14year old posted as a proposal at the trade rumor board.

Thanks!!

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11-18-2010, 09:40 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
not many top picks who had any type of success on their first contracts have been willing to sign for more then a single season on their second contract for less then this have they?

perhaps you can name me someone other then Jack Johnson who was like traded twice and swirled with all sorts of negative rumors

from komasarek to whitney to pitkanen to even our own wideman and giordano out in calgary... not all these guys are top picks, but none of them needed to accomplish much before they went into the 4 mill a year range.

an agent would be grossly neglegent to let his client sign for less on anything more then a 1-2 year deal if the kid has any potential at all to be a top 2 dman during the term of his deal
For every Whitney, Pitkanen, Komisarek, I can give you a Vlasic, Coburn, Suter, Keith (pre new contract) Burns, Barker, Yandle, E. Johnson, etc.

All those players signed a relatively cheap 2nd or 3rd contract, and all of them are just as good or better than those you listed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers View Post
I thought Bogosian was supposed to develop into the next Doughty under the tutelage of Craig Ramsey. What happened to that scenario?
No reason why that still cant happen.

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