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Clarke realy that bad of GM?

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06-16-2004, 04:47 PM
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budscweizer16
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Clarke realy that bad of GM?

ok as i look at this board, i see that alot of you, critiscize clarke, saying the only way this team can win is without him, and he needs to be fired. now i dont even like the guy that much, but i am not going to lie in the last few years he has made some realy good trades. lets see we got Brashear Kapenen and Johnnson for Lindros(excellent) we got zhamnov for like a third rounder and vandermeer.(good trade) Handzus and Esche for Brian boucher(excellent) Radiojevic Eager and Burke for comrie(average) i dont remember who we got Malakhov for but it couldnt have been much pitkanen for Fedetenko(will turn out to be a top 5 best trade in history), as i look at these trades i think he has done a fairly good job, now as i think even harder i do have 1 2 bad trades worst trade ever, worst trade in flyers history. we got Oates for 1-2-3-pick and ouellet and i believe we had to give them some money to(absolutely horrifying) and another one thats even but i didnt understand was Mcgillis for Ragnarsson. Mcgillis is a physical guy who stayed healthy and had been there for a while when he got traded for Ragnarsson(dont like much) another one as close to Iginla 4 Nieuwendyk as u can get Primeau for Brindamour. along with those trades, he has also given us some realy good prospects that could be impact players. I mean for as much clarke bashing as i hear he atleast tries and gives us a legit shot every year. u watch we are going to be a top 5 seed in east next year and again chalenge for cup. i mean he sometimes acquires over the hill players or takes on alot of salary, but i dont have a problem with him. what do u think?

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06-16-2004, 05:03 PM
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McGillis was playing horrible under Hitchcock. Ragnarsson has turned into our most consistent defenseman.

Clarke has had his share of steals and losses (more steals) but overall he is a good GM.

There are those who really hate him as a GM but I believe they have an unreasonable hatred for the man himself. Maybe because they hated him as a player or hate the Flyers and Clarke is the image of the Flyers.

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06-16-2004, 05:14 PM
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budscweizer16
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yea thats a possibility, but i still liked Mcgillis better then Rags

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06-16-2004, 05:28 PM
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Ive hated Clarkey ever since he traded Away Peter Forsberg lol

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06-16-2004, 06:01 PM
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I have two problems with him that I've had with him as a GM for quite a while now:

a.) He doesn't taking the goaltending position seriously enough. The reasoning we've had this goaltending carousel since Hextall was here is because there was never any real attempt to draft a goaltender early in any draft, or even to develop a young goaltender.

b.) He has little self-control. Whenever there is an over-priced Veteran 2 or 3 years from retirement avaliable as trade bait from another team or on the free agent market, he's almost always the first GM in line to try to throw away any enormous amount of money or prospects the Flyers have in order to acquire them.

He's not one of the worst GMs out there, but he seriously needs to start to re-think some of his ways....he may already be doing that, but history would say otherwise.

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06-16-2004, 06:27 PM
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budscweizer16
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ouellet pelletier and boucher were all first round picks 3 years in a row obey steve.

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06-16-2004, 06:54 PM
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Yes, but did we make any real attempt to develop them into the long-term goaltender of the team?

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06-16-2004, 07:15 PM
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We drafted Maxime Ouellet (1st Rd. 22nd Overall), Jean-Marc Pelletier (1st Rd. 30th Overall), and Brian Boucher (1st Rd. 22nd Overall) since 1995.

None of the goalies really fit well in Philadelphia (not speaking of Ouellet). Boucher has major mental issues, and has very little confidence. He did well with his mentor by his side (John Vanbiesbrouck), but when we traded him, his confidence really plumpted. It really affected his gameplay, so we had to trade him (Him + 2nd - Handzus + Esche).

We traded Pelletier and Rod Brind'Amour for Primeau and a 5th round pick from Carolina.

Ouellet is the only goalie I wish we kept. He's one of the best goalie prospects in the world. Clarke traded him + a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick for Adam Oats, which I believe is insanely too much. Now Washington has an amazing goalie prospect for their future.

Clarke drafted multiple goalies, trying to find the right one, but eventually we did, with Esche and Niittymaki for our future. It only took 8 years, lol.

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06-16-2004, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerfreak941
Ive hated Clarkey ever since he traded Away Peter Forsberg lol
i didn't think clarke was the gm at that time.

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06-16-2004, 07:27 PM
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LOL oo well now i feel stupid :bonk: but Clarkey had a great season this year. He made up for the last couple bad years in my eyes.

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06-16-2004, 07:37 PM
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Russ Farwell (?) was the GM then, I believe.

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06-16-2004, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear
Clarke traded him + a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick for Adam Oats, which I believe is insanely too much. Now Washington has an amazing goalie prospect for their future.
and, if I am not mistaken, they used our 1st and our 2nd to move up in the draft to select Alexander Semin at 13.

BTW, I like Clarke. I think that he is one of the best GM's in the league. sure he has some draw backs, but who doesn't?

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06-16-2004, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerfreak941
Ive hated Clarkey ever since he traded Away Peter Forsberg
Forty lashes for you. Anybody with "flyer" in their nickname should know Clarke was nowhere near the organization when that trade was made.

Besides, I've forgiven him for - but I'll never forget - that he traded away Brian Propp and Dave Poulin for nothing. Propper was at the end, but Poulin had several more productive years. For many different reasons, most of them intangible, I feel this was his worst trade.

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06-16-2004, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerfreak941
Ive hated Clarkey ever since he traded Away Peter Forsberg lol
I assumed you were being sarcastic, as that line seems to come up whenever an unknowledgeable fan bashes Clarke.

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06-16-2004, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus
I assumed you were being sarcastic, as that line seems to come up whenever an unknowledgeable fan bashes Clarke.
I haven't once seen a person being completely serious and use the Lindros trade as evidence as to why Clarke is a bad GM in their mind.


Last edited by ObeySteve: 06-16-2004 at 10:49 PM.
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06-17-2004, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObeySteve
I haven't once seen a person being completely serious and use the Lindros trade as evidence as to why Clarke is a bad GM in their mind.
I have.

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06-17-2004, 09:45 AM
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Bob Clarke has done an admirable job in my view. Like others have said, I think his personality irritates people and that clouds their judgment of his managerial skills. Trades can be dissected and analyzed till Armageddon but he constantly puts a competitive team on the ice. Sure, the Flyers have the luxury of deep pockets but look at the big three markers (NY, LA, Chicago) and that doesn't necessarily translate into winning; in fact, the Rangers, Kings and Hawks did not make the playoffs. For years, Boston had $$$$$$ but refused to spend it leading to a lackluster fan base and horrible playoff results.

Don't get me going on those who still think Bob Clarke traded Peter Forsberg. READ MY LIPS: Jay Snider/Russ Farwell. As I have said before when this topic arises, if the Nordiques remained in Quebec then Montreal would have never dealt Patrick Roy to their arch-enemy and the hockey world would have had a vastly different landscape. Roy might have been an LA King for instance since the Habs would most likely have dealt him to a western conference team.

Yes, he traded a promising goalie in Oulette but at the time the team had a glut of injuries down the middle (in a case or two the diagnosis was unsure) and was gearing up for the playoffs. They got the NHL's leading assist man (for that season at the time of the transaction) in Adam Oates without taking an NHL player off the roster. I didn't like the trade at the time but I saw his rational. Same as giving up Woywitka.

He also hired arguably the best coach in the NHL in Ken Hitchcock.

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06-17-2004, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles
Bob Clarke has done an admirable job in my view. Like others have said, I think his personality irritates people and that clouds their judgment of his managerial skills. Trades can be dissected and analyzed till Armageddon but he constantly puts a competitive team on the ice. Sure, the Flyers have the luxury of deep pockets but look at the big three markers (NY, LA, Chicago) and that doesn't necessarily translate into winning; in fact, the Rangers, Kings and Hawks did not make the playoffs. For years, Boston had $$$$$$ but refused to spend it leading to a lackluster fan base and horrible playoff results.

Don't get me going on those who still think Bob Clarke traded Peter Forsberg. READ MY LIPS: Jay Snider/Russ Farwell. As I have said before when this topic arises, if the Nordiques remained in Quebec then Montreal would have never dealt Patrick Roy to their arch-enemy and the hockey world would have had a vastly different landscape. Roy might have been an LA King for instance since the Habs would most likely have dealt him to a western conference team.

Yes, he traded a promising goalie in Oulette but at the time the team had a glut of injuries down the middle (in a case or two the diagnosis was unsure) and was gearing up for the playoffs. They got the NHL's leading assist man (for that season at the time of the transaction) in Adam Oates without taking an NHL player off the roster. I didn't like the trade at the time but I saw his rational. Same as giving up Woywitka.

He also hired arguably the best coach in the NHL in Ken Hitchcock.




Good post...can I add that he's been verbally responsible also...of course, he's slipped...but for the most part he's been better. I think he had the team this year till the injuries finally took their toll. No GM is perfect but Clarkie seems to be pushing the right buttons much more frequently and it's only a matter of time.

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06-17-2004, 09:54 AM
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As an outsider, I think Bobby Clarke is a very good GM.

1. Bold moves. You can't blame a guy that is going to do anything within his power to insure the success of his team. He is going to win some, he is going to lose some, but you aren't going to wonder if he is willing to do what it takes. Many teams are wondering why their GMs don't make moves as Bobby Clarke is out there taking names and kicking ass.

2. Commitment. Every GM wants to win. But you can see it in Bobby's eyes. His passion for victory seems unrivaled.

3. Most of his moves make sense. A very high percentage anyways. 3 injuries to blueliners, get Timmander...etc etc. If it needs to be done, Bobby will get it done.

4. Honesty and accountability. Bobby won't lie to you, he won't snow you, he will tell it like it is.(Almost to a fault, kind of like tipping your hand at poker with the whole Cechmanek thing.."This guy is crap. Want to trade for him?") But what you see is what you get.

As the seasons have gone on, I have really enjoyed watching Bobby and the Flyers, probably as on of my top 3 favourite US teams. As far as Bobby Clarke goes, I like him, and if I were a Flyers fan, I would be happy to have him as GM.

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06-17-2004, 10:17 AM
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I think Clarke is a mediocre GM whose time has passed.

He is not a long-term 'vision' kind of guy. He seems to fly by the seat of his pants, making tons of needless trades that only disrupt chemistry and deplete resources. He definately isn't a guy you see developing and executing a 3-year plan. It is all about the now.

He reacts to situations, he doesn't anticipate them. When you are a CEO/GM/President, you need foresight. He doesn't have it. So much roster turnover, so much swapping of players performing the same role, to say nothing about the endless carosel in net. Or (until Hitchcock), on the bench.

Going into a new salary cap era, the need to anticipate and be proactive is paramount. Clarke, and the Flyers, have had the huge competitive advantage of an enormous bankroll. We could buy our way out of mistakes, or flex our financial muscle to make things happen. Price was no object to us. If and when the playing field is leveled, we will no longer be able to do that. All we will have is our savvy. That won't be enough.

While he has toned down somewhat, his PR fiascos are downright embarrassing. During interviews, Clarke is a moment away from shoving his foot in his mouth. While the Lindros situation was ugly, I thought he handled it particularly poorly. If there is ever a guy on this planet who needs to know the value of 'No Comment', it is Clarke.

In the end, it comes down to this: no other GM in any professional sport has continuously sat in the GM role as long as Clarke without winning a championship. It has been 20+ years now. If he was ever going to put together a winner, it would have already happened. While it is tough to say this after he had his best season as a GM ever, it is time for change. Somebody who does have the vision to lead us on a 3-year plan to a Cup in the new CBA-ea. Personally, I think Clarke would do fine if he worked under the direction of somebody else and had somebody else handle the PR.

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06-17-2004, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
I think Clarke is a mediocre GM whose time has passed.

He is not a long-term 'vision' kind of guy. He seems to fly by the seat of his pants, making tons of needless trades that only disrupt chemistry and deplete resources. He definately isn't a guy you see developing and executing a 3-year plan. It is all about the now.

He reacts to situations, he doesn't anticipate them. When you are a CEO/GM/President, you need foresight. He doesn't have it. So much roster turnover, so much swapping of players performing the same role, to say nothing about the endless carosel in net. Or (until Hitchcock), on the bench.

Going into a new salary cap era, the need to anticipate and be proactive is paramount. Clarke, and the Flyers, have had the huge competitive advantage of an enormous bankroll. We could buy our way out of mistakes, or flex our financial muscle to make things happen. Price was no object to us. If and when the playing field is leveled, we will no longer be able to do that. All we will have is our savvy. That won't be enough.

While he has toned down somewhat, his PR fiascos are downright embarrassing. During interviews, Clarke is a moment away from shoving his foot in his mouth. While the Lindros situation was ugly, I thought he handled it particularly poorly. If there is ever a guy on this planet who needs to know the value of 'No Comment', it is Clarke.

In the end, it comes down to this: no other GM in any professional sport has continuously sat in the GM role as long as Clarke without winning a championship. It has been 20+ years now. If he was ever going to put together a winner, it would have already happened. While it is tough to say this after he had his best season as a GM ever, it is time for change. Somebody who does have the vision to lead us on a 3-year plan to a Cup in the new CBA-ea. Personally, I think Clarke would do fine if he worked under the direction of somebody else and had somebody else handle the PR.
I agree with PR, but I don't think it makes that much of a difference.

The Flyers would have won the Stanley Cup if they scored 2 instead of TB in Game 7. It is as simple as that. I don't think you can discount him as a good GM because of that.

I've been a big supporter of BC in the past, and will continue to do so, but I wouldn't mind a new GM with a different perspective. I just wouldn't like the gloating around these boards if he got sacked. I think people have an unreasonable hatred for the man.

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06-17-2004, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus
I agree with PR, but I don't think it makes that much of a difference.

The Flyers would have won the Stanley Cup if they scored 2 instead of TB in Game 7. It is as simple as that. I don't think you can discount him as a good GM because of that.

I've been a big supporter of BC in the past, and will continue to do so, but I wouldn't mind a new GM with a different perspective. I just wouldn't like the gloating around these boards if he got sacked. I think people have an unreasonable hatred for the man.
I think you are being highly over-presumptions thinking that we would have won a Cup had we scored 2 goals in game 2. Like any and every team in Clarke's career, it is all about the 'what if' and 'could have' and not the DID Bottom line: we didn't. Clarke didn't. And never has.

This was undeniably Clarke's best effort and the best team he has built. It still came up short. What does that tell you when your best just isn't good enough?

I used to be a huge fan of Clarke too, but as the roster turnstyle spun out of control, glarring needs left ignored and failures mounted, I began to question him. Eventually, that questioning led me to beleive that he was incapable of crafting a Cup-winning team. I still believe that now.

At the very least, this season has earned Clarke a repreive. While I used to say he should be fired, now I think he just needs somebody to call the shots. Put somebody ahead of him on the totem poll to dictate the direction the team is heading, let Clarke get it done. That is far and away his biggest shortcoming. He just doesn't seem to operate with identifyable plan. We make more lateral moves (often with multiple steps in between) or mystifying than anything else. A perfect example this year: Mike Comrie. Even an Indy-class driver needs to use a road map. Clarke is map impared.

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06-17-2004, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
I think people have an unreasonable hatred for the man.
exactly the reason i started this thread Maximus, ur exactly right, people dont mind Bob the gm, they hate Bob the person.


whoever said that they put the best team on ice and stil lost, they had injuries, and i know thats and if or but, but the truth is if they had as many injuries as Tampa(very little) they might have won in 6 games.

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06-17-2004, 12:29 PM
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And I suppose you think the age of the Flyers roster had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the number of injuries they had?

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06-17-2004, 12:40 PM
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I like Clarke for a couple of reasons

1. He always gets a deal done in dire straits.
2. He has kept the Flyers competetive for a decade.
3. He has drafted very well

People don't like his character, but as manager of our team he has done a relatively good job.

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