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Time to put Bailey with Tavares

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Old
11-21-2010, 09:05 AM
  #1
On Edge
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Time to put Bailey with Tavares

It is time to put Bailey and Taveres together. Taveres is supposed to be a finisher, lethal around the front of the net and needs help getting someone to feed him the puck.

Bailey may be the most creative forward this team has (not saying much) and it is mind blowing to me that they are not on the ice together. Put Bailey on his wing and Martin on the other side and give it a try for a few games.


Some other thoughts...

Put Moulson with Nielson on second line with Grabner or Joensuu. Nielson is underutilized imo.

Bring up David Ullstrum (sp?) from the Bridge and let him have a go as third line center with Grabner/Joensuu and Hunter. At least he brings some size up the middle. I don't want to see Shremp on the ice for the foreseeable future. Comeau too.

Bench Shremp, Parenteau, Comeau. Please.

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11-21-2010, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by On Edge View Post
It is time to put Bailey and Taveres together. Taveres is supposed to be a finisher, lethal around the front of the net and needs help getting someone to feed him the puck.

Bailey may be the most creative forward this team has (not saying much) and it is mind blowing to me that they are not on the ice together. Put Bailey on his wing and Martin on the other side and give it a try for a few games.


Some other thoughts...

Put Moulson with Nielson on second line with Grabner or Joensuu. Nielson is underutilized imo.

Bring up David Ullstrum (sp?) from the Bridge and let him have a go as third line center with Grabner/Joensuu and Hunter. At least he brings some size up the middle. I don't want to see Shremp on the ice for the foreseeable future. Comeau too.

Bench Shremp, Parenteau, Comeau. Please.
I really don't think it will make a difference. What they need is a big capable body to make room and take heat off of Tavares. By capable I mean someone that the other team actually has to play defense against.

I do agree that Nielsen is under utilized.

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11-21-2010, 09:37 AM
  #3
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it boggels my mind that Bailey & Tavares aren't out there together 5 on 5. If they don't want to do that, then I really need to hear the explanation why they aren't on the same PP unit though. very strange decision by Gordon/Capuano/Snow.

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11-21-2010, 09:46 AM
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I think after 1 season and 18 games it is becoming clear that Tavares is not the scoring stud we hoped he would be as was projected by his incredible junior record.
We knew and were told he would not be Crosby or Ovechkin, and he is not. He is not Malkin, Kane, Toews, either.
He may be surpassed by Hall and Seguin pretty rapidly.
As a hockey player, he has been mediocre at best. He is a very good passer down low. The rest of his game has improved, but not to above average NHL standards....skating, defensive awareness and positioning, physical play. Then there is scoring (finishing chances) which is average to a bit above, but nowhere near elite.
Ignoring stats, just using your eyes, he does match up to other top players in his age category........Evander Kane, Skinner, Doughty, Duchene, Stamkos.
His shot is not that strong or accurate, he does not finish off chances that those players would.
At this point, Tavares appears to be better suited to a wing, but even there I am feeling he may only ever be a 2nd line player who would be a 30 goal scorer as a PP specialist. He could be a very good set up guy for an NHL quality finisher, but he sure doesnt look like a finisher himself.
I would try him with Bailey at center for 10 games, nothing to lose. If he can't finish (if Bailey can get him the puck), well we will know what we have, a 2nd liner from the #1 overall pick.

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11-21-2010, 10:17 AM
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Ziggy96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaljudge View Post
I think after 1 season and 18 games it is becoming clear that Tavares is not the scoring stud we hoped he would be as was projected by his incredible junior record.
We knew and were told he would not be Crosby or Ovechkin, and he is not. He is not Malkin, Kane, Toews, either.
He may be surpassed by Hall and Seguin pretty rapidly.
As a hockey player, he has been mediocre at best. He is a very good passer down low. The rest of his game has improved, but not to above average NHL standards....skating, defensive awareness and positioning, physical play. Then there is scoring (finishing chances) which is average to a bit above, but nowhere near elite.
Ignoring stats, just using your eyes, he does match up to other top players in his age category........Evander Kane, Skinner, Doughty, Duchene, Stamkos.
His shot is not that strong or accurate, he does not finish off chances that those players would.
At this point, Tavares appears to be better suited to a wing, but even there I am feeling he may only ever be a 2nd line player who would be a 30 goal scorer as a PP specialist. He could be a very good set up guy for an NHL quality finisher, but he sure doesnt look like a finisher himself.
I would try him with Bailey at center for 10 games, nothing to lose. If he can't finish (if Bailey can get him the puck), well we will know what we have, a 2nd liner from the #1 overall pick.
54 points in his rookie year and 11 points in 18 games this season.
Toews managed only 15 more points in his rookie year and only 7 more than Tavares this season on a far better team.

Even this season, Malkin has only 8 more points than Tavares.

Again I'm not saying Tavares is on par with these two players at this point in time- but points wise he's managing far better than you seem to think on a god-awful team.

I know its hard to stay positive, but lets not over pity ourselves.

I do agree that he belongs on the wing though, been saying it since WJC '08

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11-21-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy96 View Post
54 points in his rookie year and 11 points in 18 games this season.
Toews managed only 15 more points in his rookie year and only 7 more than Tavares this season on a far better team.

Even this season, Malkin has only 8 more points than Tavares.

Again I'm not saying Tavares is on par with these two players at this point in time- but points wise he's managing far better than you seem to think on a god-awful team.

I know its hard to stay positive, but lets not over pity ourselves.

I do agree that he belongs on the wing though, been saying it since WJC '08
I think that guy is hitting the panic button just a little quickly. You could put almost any player on this team other then maybe Crosby and they would struggle. Frankly, I doubt even a guy like Ovechkin would be able to generate a lot of offense playing with this cast of forwards.

Look what Tavares did when he actually had the opportunity to play with some talent. 7 goals in 7 games at the World Championships as a 19 year old, playing with some of Canada's other top young players.

Personally, I still like Tavares as a center, but at this point, there is certainly no harm in trying him on the wing. Bailey seems to be more effective, err, was more effective down the middle, so maybe pairing him and JT could be a good option with Moulson on the other wing. I think one thing that has crippled JT's game is having to play with Comeau and/or Parenteau. These guys are momentum killers and really do not belong in that role.

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11-21-2010, 11:09 AM
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Not having Bailey centering Tavares is one of the worst coaching decisions I've seen thus far...not even trying it is worse.

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11-21-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy96 View Post
54 points in his rookie year and 11 points in 18 games this season.
Toews managed only 15 more points in his rookie year and only 7 more than Tavares this season on a far better team.

Even this season, Malkin has only 8 more points than Tavares.

Again I'm not saying Tavares is on par with these two players at this point in time- but points wise he's managing far better than you seem to think on a god-awful team.

I know its hard to stay positive, but lets not over pity ourselves.

I do agree that he belongs on the wing though, been saying it since WJC '08
I know the stats, but I watch the game with my eyes. Tavares does not get free very often on the rush, and he misses the net a lot for a "sniper". When he does get his shot off it does not have superior velocity, accuracy, or elevation.
He has not shown that he is a scoring stud. His passing is very good but his finishing just doesn't wow me any. Whiffs on one timers, shoots into the chest, can not overpower a goalie with velocity.
Comparing him to Malkin's stats makes no sense, Malkin has arrived and had a dominant season or two, but all you have to do is watch them play with your eyes.
Same with Stamkos. You just do not see the same thing with Tavares. If anyone on this team has the skillset to be that kind of scorer, it is Okposo, with his skating and shot, something JT does not exhibit. I wish he even had the release of Moulson.
Sad but true. JT reminds me of Ryan Smyth, not Steven Stamkos.

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Old
11-21-2010, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Groin Of Bates View Post
Not having Bailey centering Tavares is one of the worst coaching decisions I've seen thus far...not even trying it is worse.
And this I agree with 100%.

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Old
11-22-2010, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Goaljudge View Post
I know the stats, but I watch the game with my eyes. Tavares does not get free very often on the rush, and he misses the net a lot for a "sniper". When he does get his shot off it does not have superior velocity, accuracy, or elevation.
He has not shown that he is a scoring stud. His passing is very good but his finishing just doesn't wow me any. Whiffs on one timers, shoots into the chest, can not overpower a goalie with velocity.
Comparing him to Malkin's stats makes no sense, Malkin has arrived and had a dominant season or two, but all you have to do is watch them play with your eyes.
Same with Stamkos. You just do not see the same thing with Tavares. If anyone on this team has the skillset to be that kind of scorer, it is Okposo, with his skating and shot, something JT does not exhibit. I wish he even had the release of Moulson.
Sad but true. JT reminds me of Ryan Smyth, not Steven Stamkos.
Never thought of Smyth similarities before but yes...you are right.

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11-22-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Groin Of Bates View Post
Not having Bailey centering Tavares is one of the worst coaching decisions I've seen thus far...not even trying it is worse.
I have been saying this for weeks now.

But I bet we see the exact same line combos on Wednesday.

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11-22-2010, 09:10 AM
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I still don't get how anyone can get on JT yet, sure he shows some chemistry with Moulson but MM is the complimentory piece to a JT line not his primary wingman.

Look at all the young stars in this league with the exception of Crosby(who is a freak) tell me who can do it all on their own?

For example

Backstrom-Ovie
Stamkos-St. Louis
Thorton-Heatley

Sure all those players will produce regardless but they won't be as dangerous or productive without a player to ride shotgun with. It's just the way it is and until the Isles have someone to ride shotgun with Tavares this is what's going to happen. Players need to feed off each other and the only person Tavares can feed off of right now is himself. Hopefully Bailey can be that guy because there is no one else on the team that has a chance of being it.

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11-22-2010, 09:30 AM
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JT plays on the worst team in hockey with PA Parenteau & Matt Moulson as linemates and you're complaining he isn't scoring.

Put John Tavares on the Lightning and he has 15 goals already.

To top off his lackluster linemates, he is being asked as a 20 year old to carry the franchise.

There is no doubt in my mind if the NYI had 2-3 veteran forwards capable of putting up 50 points, then John Tavares would be playing a hell of a lot better. His development is being hampered by being asked to be the teams best player at such an early age. Same goes for Okposo & Bailey.

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11-22-2010, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy96 View Post
54 points in his rookie year and 11 points in 18 games this season.
Toews managed only 15 more points in his rookie year and only 7 more than Tavares this season on a far better team.
Points is fine, but Tavares has straight up looked mediocre almost the entire year. Toews is excellent in the defensive end and contributes in other parts of the game. Tavares does not.

I'm starting to come to the same conclusion as the OP. He just hasn't been good.

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11-22-2010, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Richie Daggers Crime View Post
Points is fine, but Tavares has straight up looked mediocre almost the entire year. Toews is excellent in the defensive end and contributes in other parts of the game. Tavares does not.

I'm starting to come to the same conclusion as the OP. He just hasn't been good.
Richie I think your comparing apples to oranges here, they are just two different kinds of players. Almost like Trottier and Bossy in a way(not saying they are equivilant but just in styles of play). If you were expecting JT to develop like Toes when he was drafted I think your expectations of Tavares were off. I think JT will develop in those areas over time(assuming the Isles don't continue to screw him up) but your not going to get anywhere around where Toews was at. Just two different players.

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11-22-2010, 09:56 AM
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Richie I think your comparing apples to oranges here, they are just two different kinds of players. Almost like Trottier and Bossy in a way(not saying they are equivilant but just in styles of play). If you were expecting JT to develop like Toes when he was drafted I think your expectations of Tavares were off.
I realize that they're two different types of players. I'm not the one who made the original comparison. The point I was making is that, despite points, Toews is effective... Tavares is not. That's all.

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11-22-2010, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Isle Junkie View Post
JT plays on the worst team in hockey with PA Parenteau & Matt Moulson as linemates and you're complaining he isn't scoring.

Put John Tavares on the Lightning and he has 15 goals already.

To top off his lackluster linemates, he is being asked as a 20 year old to carry the franchise.

There is no doubt in my mind if the NYI had 2-3 veteran forwards capable of putting up 50 points, then John Tavares would be playing a hell of a lot better. His development is being hampered by being asked to be the teams best player at such an early age. Same goes for Okposo & Bailey.
Totally agree, especially if they were all playing on the first line. Tavares wouldn't be put in a first line C role on any other team - he'd be protected. Even the lowly Oilers have Hall on the second line. My biggest fear for this team - and I have lots of them - is that playing in this mentally exhausting environment long enough will eventually lower the core kids' future projection down a line - Tavares 2nd line etc.

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11-22-2010, 10:49 AM
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Chapin Landvogt
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What irks me is that neither justs gets the puck on net with regularity.

Tavares had two EXCELLENT chances last night and didn't even get the shot on goal.

I always believed that he was gonna be LIGHTS OUT in that department. His sense and timing and nose for the net was supposed to be a gift that few have. I have not witnessed that this season, although I thought we were starting to see it at the end of last season.

I don't know what Bailey is, because after being a tank the first 4 games, he's had maybe 5 standout plays since. It's - well - illogical.

And ultimately, we're getting far too little from either. Was management unreasonable in expecting them to be more when given the ice time? One way or another, we fans expect it and I for one continue to believe that a couple of Vermette/Lombardi/Umberger/Kessler types here would see our boys be unloaded of a certain pressure and with that, be more effective in the scoring department, but our boys simply do not have that special something or knack or whatever you wanna call it.

Bailey centering JT?

I remember so many folks heading into last season (me included) wanted to see Weight center JT, placing him ideally on the RW.

We were told by Gordon and management that Johnny IS a center and will REMAIN a center.

My question is, what can the coach do to put Johnny in a position to best be able to do whatever the heck he's supposed to be special at ('cause it sure as heck ain't sniping)???

This question remains unanswered - and the Bailey/Tavares combo hasn't been tried.

I would love to see a journalist ask about that. I can just picture the answer "Well, we don't wanna put all our ammo on one line."

Ohhh, that'd be a goodin'....


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11-22-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Isle Junkie View Post
JT plays on the worst team in hockey with PA Parenteau & Matt Moulson as linemates and you're complaining he isn't scoring.

Put John Tavares on the Lightning and he has 15 goals already.

To top off his lackluster linemates, he is being asked as a 20 year old to carry the franchise.

There is no doubt in my mind if the NYI had 2-3 veteran forwards capable of putting up 50 points, then John Tavares would be playing a hell of a lot better. His development is being hampered by being asked to be the teams best player at such an early age. Same goes for Okposo & Bailey.
Dead on IJ.

That falls right on the lap of Snow and Wang for thinking that PAP would be the guy to put on JT's wing. If Snowang couldn't get a FA for that spot, they have to do it via trade and have failed miserably.

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11-22-2010, 10:52 AM
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Points is fine, but Tavares has straight up looked mediocre almost the entire year. Toews is excellent in the defensive end and contributes in other parts of the game. Tavares does not.

I'm starting to come to the same conclusion as the OP. He just hasn't been good.
Since his hat-trick game, Tavares has been awful. He doesn't look confident or comfortable out there, he makes poor puck decisions and can't finish. He's also unable to generate scoring chances for himself or his linemates with any regularity.

While he's not as bad as he was last year during his slump, he hasn't been great.

What's clear is how much more talented he is than everyone else though. When he has the puck, he can create plays.

He just NEVER HAS THE PUCK.

The PP has JT in front of the net for deflections and rebounds. He's not on the right point (like the goal he scored in Toronto). Not sure who's decision that is but to watch Parenteau, Wisniewski and Weight pass back and forth for 90 seconds is disgusting.

The NYI new when he was drafted that he wasn't the type of player to carry the play through the neutral zone or deep into the offensive zone. Yet, this is completely unaddressed with his AHL right winger who doesn't contribute with speed or corner work or anything else. Playing with PAP 5-5 is like playing shorthanded. I've played with players like him before, just frustrating for an offensive player.

I agree that if he was on ANY OTHER TEAM he'd be a much better player.

But that's not the point.

Tavares was a FIRST OVERALL pick. He's supposed to make others around him better, not the other way around.

It's not a coincidence though that he looks lost and uncomfortable and seems to completely lack confidence on the ice.

It's just like Bailey.

While the onus is on JT (and JB) to be better, you can hardly blame them for the circumstances around the team, the on-ice product.

I can't imagine under what circumstances I'd re-sign with the Islanders - even as an RFA. There's no agent in the world that would sign anything longer than the first minute of UFA with players like Bailey and Tavares.

It'll be interesting to see KO's next contract.

Why sign with a team that doesn't "have your back" !?

Wang/Snow are destroying this organization with how they've decided to run it (It's more on Wang than Snow IMO - but both are to blame)

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11-22-2010, 10:53 AM
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Chapin Landvogt
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Interestingly, check out Rapid Fire Reporters 2.0

at http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/

Listen as of the 2:20 mark...

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11-22-2010, 11:02 AM
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Edit: went kind of off topic, so I deleted it as not to derail the point of the thread.


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11-22-2010, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Richie Daggers Crime View Post
I realize that they're two different types of players. I'm not the one who made the original comparison. The point I was making is that, despite points, Toews is effective... Tavares is not. That's all.
I don't know if its quite fair to label Tavares as not effective. As other posters have mentioned, he plays a different role. He doesn't kill the isles defensively, but it isn't his strong suit either.

Tavares was never sold to us as as Two-way forward. He was a scorer, a guy who gets you points and, thus far, he's done that, which was I chose the stats of players who are in that tier under Crosby to illustrate that production-wise, Tavares ( Playing as the first line center on the worst team in hockey) is not all that far removed from them.

I understand that Toews plays well in all three zones and that Evgeni Malkin is a premiere offensive talent. But as much of a game breaker Malkin is, Tavares only has 9 fewer points in 3 fewer games as a second year pro. Malkin is supported by Staal and Sydney friggin' Crosby playing on a team one year removed from a Stanley Cup chamionship. Tavares is supported by a surprising diamond in the rough Matt Moulson and Panthers castoff Michael Grabner.

Tavares is here to generate points, which he is doing, and to not be a liability in the defensive zone. I would say he is shaping up to be what we thought he'd be and to call him ineffective or a class below Duchene and the rest at this point in his career is unfair.

If your team lives and dies by the defensive effectiveness of John Tavares, then you've got major, fundamental problems with the way your team is constructed in the first place. He's generating offense for the team, which is his primary role, and is far from Miro Satan in his own zone. He's plenty effective for a 20 year old sophomore in the league.

And I agree with the OP 100% he should be playing wing, which I've thought forever, and he should be doing so while flanking our (potentially) best playmaker, Bailey

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11-22-2010, 11:25 AM
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There has been a problem with the line combos for a while.

They have JT, Parenteau and Moulson on the top unit. Who is the playmaker?

They have Weight, Comeau and Bailey on the 2nd line. Who is the shooter?

Right now Grabner and Moulson are playing the most consistently along with Frans Neilsen.

My top line would be Bailey with Martin and Tavares this gives you a playmaker in Bailey, a finisher in Tavares and a banger in Martin. I know it seems odd but after losing 13 straight, I think it is afair to say it is time to try some different things and Martin absolutely is fearless, and does not look out of place one bit. Plus, he has some scoring ability.

My second unit would be Moulson, Neilsen and Comeau. Here again, Neilsen can distribute the puck well and has a finisher in Moulson, and a corner guy in Comeau (maybe). My other choice here in place of Comeau would be Grabner.

My third line would feature Weight with Hunter and Grabner/Comeau. Hunter, Grabner and Comeau could work well as grinding line components. Weight can still dish the puck, and feed players who have some ability to score.

Parenteau would be a PP specialist. Schremp may be able to slot in some where. ultimately, we need to move some forwards and I would not be against moving Schremp, Hunter or Comeau. I think a trade is the only logical next step. With 5 of our top 7 defenders now out of the lineup (I am going to go on a limb and say Mottau will miss some time) the Isles need to make a deal for a defenseman.

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11-22-2010, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Interestingly, check out Rapid Fire Reporters 2.0

at http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/

Listen as of the 2:20 mark...
Ouch.

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