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Old
04-27-2011, 06:56 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
You can't win without an elite QB. You can find linemen all over the draft and Shanny likes them small and quick. I'd be surprised if they went OL in either of the 1st two rounds.
SB XXXV - Baltimore Ravens - Trent Dilfer QB - Adequate, not elite.
SB XXXVI - NE Patriots - Tom Brady QB - Elite QB, but drafted in the 6th Round.
SB XXXVII - TB Bucs - Brad Johnson - Adequate, not elite, and undrafted.
SB XXXVIII - NE Patriots - Tom Brady QB - Elite QB, But drafted in the 6th Round.
SB XXXIX - NE Patriots - Tom Brady QB - Elite QB, But drafted in the 6th Round.
SB XL - Pittsburg Steelters - Ben Rothlesburger QB - At the time, good QB, but Betts and Defense won that SB. Drafted 14th overall?
SB XLI - Indy Colts - Peyton Manning QB - As elite as they get, and drafted 1st overall.
SB XLII - NY Giants - Eli Manning QB - Good, not elite. Drafted 4th overall.
SB XLIII - Pittsburg Steelers - Ben Rothlesburger QB - Now elite, and instrumental in winning the SB. Drafted 14th overall?
SB XLIV - New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees QB - Elite QB, and drafted in the 2nd round.
SB XLV - Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers QB - Many consider elite now, drafted in 1st round right before Jason Campbell.

Last 10 SB winners, and the QB's that led them. IMO, 6 SB's were won by "elite" QB's (I don't count Big Ben's first SB in this category because he wasn't elite at the time, and his RB and D carried that team). Of those 6 SB's, 4 of them were won by "elite" QB's that were taken in rounds other than the 1st (Tom Brady - 3 SB's and drafted in the 6th round, Drew Brees - 1 SB and drafted in the 2nd round).

So where do you get an "elite" QB? Luck is what the Skins need apparently when it comes to picking a QB in the draft, just have to wait and draft him (Andrew) next year.

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04-27-2011, 07:10 PM
  #252
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I still want to know why we rushed to sign Journeyman Jeff Beck after seeing him play just a half of football. A multiple year deal signed in preseason within weeks of being acquired. This after having acquired 2 vets in front of him that we obviously liked. I can help but think maybe just maybe a Shanahan thinks this guy can be a starter. He is certainly no greenhorn, he is close to Kyle's age.

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Old
04-27-2011, 07:44 PM
  #253
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I still want to know why we rushed to sign Journeyman Jeff Beck after seeing him play just a half of football. A multiple year deal signed in preseason within weeks of being acquired. This after having acquired 2 vets in front of him that we obviously liked. I can help but think maybe just maybe a Shanahan thinks this guy can be a starter. He is certainly no greenhorn, he is close to Kyle's age.
ESPN 980 has an NFL "expert" on once in a while and I think the Sports Reports asked him that exact question. According to this "expert", and I don't remember his name, they did that because they restructered the contract he had with the Ravens and spread it over 2 years. So instead of him playing last year with a good chunk of garunteed money, they spread it over 2 years and turned a lot of it into incentives and performance based money.

Having said all that, the Shanahan's obviously like Beck, and if the Skins do not take a QB in the draft, I hope they give him a shot to compete. He's older (29 years old), but he has low miles on his tires, Cam Cameron liked him enough to take him in the 2nd round, and Cameron was the OC in San Diego when Brees was taken in the 2nd round. So he's worth a shot IMO.


Last edited by WetHog: 04-27-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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Old
04-28-2011, 02:02 PM
  #254
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New rumor has NE swapping picks with Was. NE to 10, Was to 17

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Old
04-28-2011, 02:15 PM
  #255
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i don't like trading with NE. They're smarter than us by far.

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04-28-2011, 02:22 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
i don't like trading with NE. They're smarter than us by far.
Or they have a ton of picks and we'd like one?

A little early to question Bruce Allen and Shanahan's draft decisions.

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04-28-2011, 02:29 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
Or they have a ton of picks and we'd like one?

A little early to question Bruce Allen and Shanahan's draft decisions.
Trading a high 2nd and 3rd for washed up McNabb for 10 games... no its not to early

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04-28-2011, 02:48 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
Trading a high 2nd and 3rd for washed up McNabb for 10 games... no its not to early
Eh. I dunno what to make of that trade. Everyone, EVERYONE, thought McNabb was a good QB that could pick up a different system. Turns out, he couldn't pick up Shanny's. I think the consensus around the league was that he's an elite QB and would benefit any team hurting for a QB. Didn't work out. At least Shanny realized it and yanked him. Thank takes balls and I don't remember the last time we had a coach that had that kind of balls.

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Old
04-28-2011, 04:24 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
Trading a high 2nd and 3rd for washed up McNabb for 10 games... no its not to early
Wasn't it a 2nd and 4th?

They traded a 3rd for Jammal Brown, who when healthy is a very good RT. They also hit on Trent Williams over Okung and found gems in Armstrong, Banks, Torain and K. Williams.

I'd give Allen's first year a strong B, if not B+.

The Pats have a very high 2nd rd and two 1sts. If the Skins can drop back to 17 and get the high 2nd it would enable them to take someone like Kaepernick, Dalton, Ponder or Locker if he falls because there will be a run on those guys in the early 2nd round. Considering how overrated Newton and Gabbert are I'd say that'd be the perfect situation for Washington.

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Old
04-28-2011, 04:35 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
Wasn't it a 2nd and 4th?

They traded a 3rd for Jammal Brown, who when healthy is a very good RT. They also hit on Trent Williams over Okung and found gems in Armstrong, Banks, Torain and K. Williams.

I'd give Allen's first year a strong B, if not B+.

The Pats have a very high 2nd rd and two 1sts. If the Skins can drop back to 17 and get the high 2nd it would enable them to take someone like Kaepernick, Dalton, Ponder or Locker if he falls because there will be a run on those guys in the early 2nd round. Considering how overrated Newton and Gabbert are I'd say that'd be the perfect situation for Washington.
You're not going to get the 17th and the 33rd for the 10th. That's basically a first rounder to move up 7 spots. You might get their late 2nd rounder, but that's probably doubtful (as someone else said, the Patriots front office is smarter than the Redskins', so they're not going to lose the trade). Also, no QBs will be available that late in the 2nd anyways.

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Old
04-28-2011, 04:40 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
SB XXXV - Baltimore Ravens - Trent Dilfer QB - Adequate, not elite.
SB XXXVI - NE Patriots - Tom Brady QB - Elite QB, but drafted in the 6th Round.
SB XXXVII - TB Bucs - Brad Johnson - Adequate, not elite, and undrafted.
SB XXXVIII - NE Patriots - Tom Brady QB - Elite QB, But drafted in the 6th Round.
SB XXXIX - NE Patriots - Tom Brady QB - Elite QB, But drafted in the 6th Round.
SB XL - Pittsburg Steelters - Ben Rothlesburger QB - At the time, good QB, but Betts and Defense won that SB. Drafted 14th overall?
SB XLI - Indy Colts - Peyton Manning QB - As elite as they get, and drafted 1st overall.
SB XLII - NY Giants - Eli Manning QB - Good, not elite. Drafted 4th overall.
SB XLIII - Pittsburg Steelers - Ben Rothlesburger QB - Now elite, and instrumental in winning the SB. Drafted 14th overall?
SB XLIV - New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees QB - Elite QB, and drafted in the 2nd round.
SB XLV - Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers QB - Many consider elite now, drafted in 1st round right before Jason Campbell.

Last 10 SB winners, and the QB's that led them. IMO, 6 SB's were won by "elite" QB's (I don't count Big Ben's first SB in this category because he wasn't elite at the time, and his RB and D carried that team). Of those 6 SB's, 4 of them were won by "elite" QB's that were taken in rounds other than the 1st (Tom Brady - 3 SB's and drafted in the 6th round, Drew Brees - 1 SB and drafted in the 2nd round).

So where do you get an "elite" QB? Luck is what the Skins need apparently when it comes to picking a QB in the draft, just have to wait and draft him (Andrew) next year.
Dilfer, Johnson and Manning all had elite defenses. The first two historically so. That's the difference. Otherwise, it's All-Pro or bust. Also, Rodgers is sure as hell an "elite" QB.

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04-28-2011, 04:45 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by QuadrupleDeke View Post
You're not going to get the 17th and the 33rd for the 10th. That's basically a first rounder to move up 7 spots. You might get their late 2nd rounder, but that's probably doubtful (as someone else said, the Patriots front office is smarter than the Redskins', so they're not going to lose the trade). Also, no QBs will be available that late in the 2nd anyways.
NFL Draft Value Chart:


pick 10: 1,300

pick 17: 950

pick 33: 580

pick 60: 300


It depends how much the Pats want their guy at 10 because generally speaking the team with the higher pick has the leverage. They don't have to take the lesser deal.

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04-28-2011, 04:52 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
i don't like trading with NE. They're smarter than us by far.
Aren't they the team we traded with last time when we traded down to draft Patrick Ramsey?


I see your point.

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04-28-2011, 04:53 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
NFL Draft Value Chart:


pick 10: 1,300

pick 17: 950

pick 33: 580

pick 60: 300


It depends how much the Pats want their guy at 10 because generally speaking the team with the higher pick has the leverage. They don't have to take the lesser deal.
Except this year there are so many teams looking to trade down, I don't think it will work the same as in drafts past. Go down the list, it seriously seems like every third team would prefer to trade down. I can only think of a few teams that would consider trading up. It's a buyers market.

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04-28-2011, 04:55 PM
  #265
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On the value chart that just about every organization uses for the draft, the 10th pick is valued at 1300, the 17th at 950, the 33rd at 580, and the 60th at 300

So the 10th could likely return the 17th, 60th, and 124th (NE's 4th rounder)

Edit: Beaten to the pick values. But my scenario is still valid.

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04-28-2011, 04:57 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Foy View Post
Aren't they the team we traded with last time when we traded down to draft Patrick Ramsey?


I see your point.
When you say "we" you mean Snyder, Cerrato and Steve Spurrier?

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04-28-2011, 05:01 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by QuadrupleDeke View Post
Except this year there are so many teams looking to trade down, I don't think it will work the same as in drafts past. Go down the list, it seriously seems like every third team would prefer to trade down. I can only think of a few teams that would consider trading up. It's a buyers market.
I don't know how many teams in the top 10 are looking to move down to 17.

I think the Draft Value Chart is arbitrary and silly. But teams use it as a tool.

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04-28-2011, 05:03 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
On the value chart that just about every organization uses for the draft, the 10th pick is valued at 1300, the 17th at 950, the 33rd at 580, and the 60th at 300

So the 10th could likely return the 17th, 60th, and 124th (NE's 4th rounder)

Edit: Beaten to the pick values. But my scenario is still valid.
That deal makes sense if the Skins aren't looking QB or hell, take one at 17. So, I could see it happening.

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04-28-2011, 05:03 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
I think the Draft Value Chart is arbitrary and silly. But teams use it as a tool.
So then why would you assume the 10th would get you the 17th and the 33rd?

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04-28-2011, 05:04 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by QuadrupleDeke View Post
Except this year there are so many teams looking to trade down, I don't think it will work the same as in drafts past. Go down the list, it seriously seems like every third team would prefer to trade down. I can only think of a few teams that would consider trading up. It's a buyers market.
I'm tired of hearing about how many people want to trade down which makes it really difficult. I hear that every year.

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04-28-2011, 05:08 PM
  #271
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So then why would you assume the 10th would get you the 17th and the 33rd?
I'm not. But if the Pats really like say, Jones or Quinn, it might be worth it to them to slightly overpay (which the teams who move up ordinarily do).

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04-28-2011, 05:35 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
NFL Draft Value Chart:


pick 10: 1,300

pick 17: 950

pick 33: 580

pick 60: 300


It depends how much the Pats want their guy at 10 because generally speaking the team with the higher pick has the leverage. They don't have to take the lesser deal.
We won't get 33, but we'll get 60 and we should jump at it. I have been calling for us to make exactly this trade for litterally 4 months. It would allow us to draft the best 3-4 defensive end/OLB available in Round 1 (and there are a bunch expected to go between 8 and 20 so we might not even be giving anything up by trading back), take a QB at 41 if someone we like is there (hopefully Ponder) and then just take the best guy on the board over 300 pounds available at #60. If no QB we like is left at #41, then we take the best guy over 300 pounds at both #41 and #60. I don't really care if 330lbers are OL or DL. We just need a lot more good guys at both.

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04-28-2011, 05:59 PM
  #273
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i don't like trading with NE. They're smarter than us by far.
Suffice it to say, their needs our just a little different than ours. We need picks to improve our deplorable depth. They need to fill specific holes with high quality talent. They have picks to burn.

All we have to accept in making a deal with New England is that we'll immediately be declared the loser of the trade by the talking heads and whoever New England picks will immediately be lauded as the sleeper or steal of the 1st round. Sometimes both at the same time. If you just know this going in that it doesn't matter who they pick, or what we do with our picks, you'll be fine.

Time will tell if the insta-analysis is actually correct. The Patriots get a 100% free pass for any bad draft pick they make. But people forget that for every Jerrod Mayo, there was a Lawrence Maroney. For every Sebastian Vollmer, there's a Ron Brace. For every Rob Gronkowski, there's a Chad Jackson. For every Patrick Chung there's a Terrence Wheatley. They're far from perfect.

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04-28-2011, 06:21 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
We won't get 33, but we'll get 60 and we should jump at it. I have been calling for us to make exactly this trade for litterally 4 months. It would allow us to draft the best 3-4 defensive end/OLB available in Round 1 (and there are a bunch expected to go between 8 and 20 so we might not even be giving anything up by trading back), take a QB at 41 if someone we like is there (hopefully Ponder) and then just take the best guy on the board over 300 pounds available at #60. If no QB we like is left at #41, then we take the best guy over 300 pounds at both #41 and #60. I don't really care if 330lbers are OL or DL. We just need a lot more good guys at both.
They might take that deal, I'm just not confident a QB they'd take in Round 2 will be available at 41.

With so many top 10 teams needing QBs, the consensus around the league is that they're going to minimize their risk and go QB in Rd. 2 instead of overreaching leaving the Skins with the leftover at 41.

We'll see. I have faith in Shanahan's ability to evaluate QBs if they go that route at all.

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Old
04-28-2011, 06:36 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
Dilfer, Johnson and Manning all had elite defenses. The first two historically so. That's the difference. Otherwise, it's All-Pro or bust. Also, Rodgers is sure as hell an "elite" QB.
I actually did a little review of history myself...and the more I think about it....the more I agree with you. If not elite QB maybe at least all pro calibre QB, otherwise you need an elite D. Dilfer was the exception to the rule....

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