HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Franchise Center ...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-25-2010, 02:58 PM
  #26
northernKing
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,889
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I think that people who are uber critical of Kopitar should stop watching the Kings for a week and pick any other team with a solid number one center and watch them (I would exclude Crosby).

The reason that the entire rest of the league and the NHL itself love Kopitar and praise his game calling him a budding superstar is because they, like allot of us here watch tons of hockey (some of us are sick of watching writing and talking about it before the ridiculous month of June when we now hold our SCF's) and are constantly comparing Kopitar with other centers around the game.

An example that would be exceptional to watch for a comparison would be MR in Phila or even JT in Chicago. Spend a week watching only them and then come back and watch what Kopitar does and if you are still so critical of him then you are either seeing something that most of us and the NHL aren't seeing, witch by the way is absolutely possible or maybe you have developed a bias based on having to watch us lose games when you felt that Kopitar could have done more.

I think Kopitar is one of the top 6 center's in the NHL outside of the obvoius couple of Elite's.

He is young, getting better every year and is doing more with less than most of his competition ever does whether its lack of actual top 6 talent to play with or playing in a system that has a defencive mindset over everything else, Kopitar is right up there with the best of them.

In my opinion that is.
Very well said!... written lol!

I too watch ALOT of hockey and having guys like Getzlaf and Spezza in my hockey pools I can honestly say that Kopitar is one of the NHL's best two way centers. IMO he will crack the 100 point mark a few times in his career and hit the 40 goal mark a few times too.

northernKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:02 PM
  #27
bland
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I think that people who are uber critical of Kopitar should stop watching the Kings for a week and pick any other team with a solid number one center and watch them (I would exclude Crosby).

The reason that the entire rest of the league and the NHL itself love Kopitar and praise his game calling him a budding superstar is because they, like allot of us here watch tons of hockey (some of us are sick of watching writing and talking about it before the ridiculous month of June when we now hold our SCF's) and are constantly comparing Kopitar with other centers around the game.

An example that would be exceptional to watch for a comparison would be MR in Phila or even JT in Chicago. Spend a week watching only them and then come back and watch what Kopitar does and if you are still so critical of him then you are either seeing something that most of us and the NHL aren't seeing, witch by the way is absolutely possible or maybe you have developed a bias based on having to watch us lose games when you felt that Kopitar could have done more.

I think Kopitar is one of the top 6 center's in the NHL outside of the obvoius couple of Elite's.

He is young, getting better every year and is doing more with less than most of his competition ever does whether its lack of actual top 6 talent to play with or playing in a system that has a defencive mindset over everything else, Kopitar is right up there with the best of them.

In my opinion that is.

I watch 12-15 out of market games a week, and have done so for over 20 years. Try again before dismissing legitimate criticism.

He isn't a top 20 center in this league. Hell, he's #4 in this division, and that's only if you count Marleau as a full time winger.


All you have to do is notice what Kopitar is doing when he is "on" and when he's "off".

Anze has been "off" all year, and has been collecting some points while doing so. However, he has had absolutely no second-effort this season, and if it wasn't for the success of the Stoll line, the Kings would be well below .500 and in serious trouble.

bland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:19 PM
  #28
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
I watch 12-15 out of market games a week, and have done so for over 20 years. Try again before dismissing legitimate criticism.

He isn't a top 20 center in this league. Hell, he's #4 in this division, and that's only if you count Marleau as a full time winger.


All you have to do is notice what Kopitar is doing when he is "on" and when he's "off".

Anze has been "off" all year, and has been collecting some points while doing so. However, he has had absolutely no second-effort this season, and if it wasn't for the success of the Stoll line, the Kings would be well below .500 and in serious trouble.
Hey, I was wondering where you can show me where I have dismissed *any* criticism let alone legitimate criticism if ya could, that would be a good start for me in understanding your position.

I can see where I said "Spend a week watching only them and then come back and watch what Kopitar does and if you are still so critical of him then you are either seeing something that most of us and the NHL aren't seeing, witch by the way is absolutely possible" etc. Which means to me that I absolutely accept that it is possible for people to be critical of Kopitar and that their opinion is valid, I just think that there is a difference between being observationally critical and just plain old nitpicking.

Every player in every game in every league in every sport is going to have ups and downs and Kopitar isn't any different than anyone else.

My point has nothing to do with how he is/has been playing so far this season or rather or not he should be in better condition or could be producing more or any of the other criticisms that I have been reading here, my point is that I think that when you spend a ton of time watching other hockey teams (at different levels and leagues) top line centers that Kopitar stands up among the best of them.

I stand by that but like I said at the end of my post and this is a critical part "in my opinion that is".

My opinion here isn't any more valid than yours or anyone else's, it may be different or more or less informed or whatever but if anything I always try to stay open minded.



As to the rest of your post let me ask you a question if you will.

Where do you rank Kopitar among the league's first line centermen?

If you can, allow for the variables that include his age, years of experience at the NHL level and comparable team management situations (a few different coaches, several different line mates, his point totals at the 20 game mark of each of his NHL seasons as compared to his competition etc).

If you would then I might be able to better understand the foundation on which you are basing your criticisms and then be better able to debate you.

In light of the that my response is "nuh uh, you are so totally wrong dude" or something like that.


etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:21 PM
  #29
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 35,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I think that people who are uber critical of Kopitar should stop watching the Kings for a week and pick any other team with a solid number one center and watch them (I would exclude Crosby).

The reason that the entire rest of the league and the NHL itself love Kopitar and praise his game calling him a budding superstar is because they, like allot of us here watch tons of hockey (some of us are sick of watching writing and talking about it before the ridiculous month of June when we now hold our SCF's) and are constantly comparing Kopitar with other centers around the game.

An example that would be exceptional to watch for a comparison would be MR in Phila or even JT in Chicago. Spend a week watching only them and then come back and watch what Kopitar does and if you are still so critical of him then you are either seeing something that most of us and the NHL aren't seeing, witch by the way is absolutely possible or maybe you have developed a bias based on having to watch us lose games when you felt that Kopitar could have done more.

I think Kopitar is one of the top 6 center's in the NHL outside of the obvoius couple of Elite's.

He is young, getting better every year and is doing more with less than most of his competition ever does whether its lack of actual top 6 talent to play with or playing in a system that has a defencive mindset over everything else, Kopitar is right up there with the best of them.

In my opinion that is.
Kopitar isn't playing like a #1 center. When I think of top centers in the game, I look to Crosby, Thornton, Datsyuk, Backstrom, Sedin, Malkin, Getzlaf, Staal, Toews, Stamkos... that's 10 centers who are above Kopitar. They do something Kopitar has failed to show, which is being tough to play against.

Recently, Kopitar has not displayed any of the traits one would expect from a #1 center. He hasn't been tough to play against. He hasn't made his linemates better. He has been ineffective with the puck.

As of now, Kopitar is in that second grouping of centers with the likes of Stastny, Zajac, Koivu, Roy, all exceptional talents, but they lack that extra drive that we've seen from the top centers in the NHL. Even as they produce respectable numbers, they have yet to show that they could lead a team, and that is the type of pressure that the best talent in the world step up to.

Ziggy Stardust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:25 PM
  #30
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nK View Post
Very well said!... written lol!

I too watch ALOT of hockey and having guys like Getzlaf and Spezza in my hockey pools I can honestly say that Kopitar is one of the NHL's best two way centers. IMO he will crack the 100 point mark a few times in his career and hit the 40 goal mark a few times too.
Thanks, I think that Kopitar can be as dynamic as you believe he will be, its up to him. He certainly has the ability to become an elite level (or maybe just below) center and he is proving that he is getting better every season so who knows.

I think that if you compare Kopi with Spezza then Kopi is a considerably more physical player who, if he had a player like Alfredson on his wing (or Heatley etc) would easily (in my opinion) be considered to be a much better center than Spezza (who I like though I feel he has his *emotional* stretches.

If you compare Kopi to Getzlaf then RG is clearly the more physical center of the two but then I give Kopi the edge in hands moves and finesse which all count for allot as well.

I can't see anything about Kopitar that would stop him from reaching the 40g/100 point mark except Kopitar and I think that given a legitimate sniper to play with he will eclipse those totals.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:26 PM
  #31
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kopitar isn't playing like a #1 center. When I think of top centers in the game, I look to Crosby, Thornton, Datsyuk, Backstrom, Sedin, Malkin, Getzlaf, Staal, Toews, Stamkos... that's 10 centers who are above Kopitar. They do something Kopitar has failed to show, which is being tough to play against.

Recently, Kopitar has not displayed any of the traits one would expect from a #1 center. He hasn't been tough to play against. He hasn't made his linemates better. He has been ineffective with the puck.

As of now, Kopitar is in that second grouping of centers with the likes of Stastny, Zajac, Koivu, Roy, all exceptional talents, but they lack that extra drive that we've seen from the top centers in the NHL. Even as they produce respectable numbers, they have yet to show that they could lead a team, and that is the type of pressure that the best talent in the world step up to.
Great points Ziggy, I am gonna look a couple of things up and get back to you because I have a counterpoint that I think is valid.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:33 PM
  #32
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 500
I remember the days of having Stumpel and Smolinski as our 1/2 punch quite well. This is better, but Kopitar needs to step it up quite a bit if the Kings are going to reach their full potential.

KINGS17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:38 PM
  #33
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 35,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I remember the days of having Stumpel and Smolinski as our 1/2 punch quite well. This is better, but Kopitar needs to step it up quite a bit if the Kings are going to reach their full potential.
The way Kopitar is playing isn't too far removed from Stumpel. Big, tall, well-rounded and aware of the defensive zone, capable with the puck, but inconsistent effort and performing below their abilities. Eerie how they share similar traits. Even Stoll is very similar to Smolinski as well. I guess the one major difference is the Kings don't have a Ziggy Palffy and Luc Robitaille on the wings...

Ziggy Stardust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:50 PM
  #34
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
 
KINGS17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 18,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
The way Kopitar is playing isn't too far removed from Stumpel. Big, tall, well-rounded and aware of the defensive zone, capable with the puck, but inconsistent effort and performing below their abilities. Eerie how they share similar traits. Even Stoll is very similar to Smolinski as well. I guess the one major difference is the Kings don't have a Ziggy Palffy and Luc Robitaille on the wings...
Meh, I would say that Kopitar and Stoll are both a cut above Stumpel and Smolinski respectively. Stoll's production is fine for a 2nd line center. Kopitar needs to play better in the offensive zone, much better.

KINGS17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:52 PM
  #35
JT Dutch*
Cult of Personality
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Stats mean next to nothing.

Watch the games, and then tell me if you think Kopitar is playing anywhere near the level he should be playing at.
... I have watched the games, of course. Sad that of all people, you've fallen into the mentality over at the other BB that just because someone uses numbers must mean they don't watch the games. You're better than this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
And as far as his defense, it's been showing a lot of cracks over the last three weeks.
... Throughout the whole season thus far, Kopitar's been on the ice for just 9 goals against at even strength. I'm not counting the two empty-netters, and you couldn't blame Kopitar on either one of those, anyway. If you want to say which of these 9 have been his fault or partially his fault, and why - I'm all ears.

He's just a plus two this season, but if you want to look at scoring chances for and against, the shots that have been on net or missed the net - he's likely over a plus thirty. Only Williams is even around that level, and he's part of the best line on the team where ALL of the guys on his line are well on the plus side. Kopitar has played alongside left wings who (with the exception of Parse) were and are all on the minus side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
The first PP goal was notched becuase Anze screwed up the two on one shorty attempt with Greene. He had to know that he had Greene with him, and that a flubbed pass would be a serious problem. That scenario calls for a shot 100% of the time, yet Anze waited until there was no chance to get the puck thru, and still tried it.
... For chrissakes, take another look at what you're posting. He was on the SH rush with Matt Greene, he of the 5 goals in his entire career. The Canadiens knew this, and they overplayed for a Kopitar shot. Kopitar knows that a shot in that situation is just as bad as a flubbed pass. He also knows that if he tries to hit Greene with a pass, it will probably be flubbed as well - and that's exactly what happened. Anze's just in a bad, no-win situation there. Seriously, what in the hell would you have him do? And when the play went back the other way, Richardson did a good job of backchecking, but HE also flubbed the puck away. And with all of this, you're going to blame Kopitar? That's an impressive job of reaching, if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
The Plekanec goal was another mental error - why leave the middle of the slot to go push one Hab that was already covered by both Johnson and Scuderi? It left a WIDE open lane in the nost dangerous area of the ice, and Plekanec could have taken a bus into that space.
... Now wait a second here. When Kostitsyn takes the initial shot and heads for the net, Kopitar is helping to double-team him with Scuderi, while Johnson is over nearest to Gionta. After the rebound, Scuderi goes down, Kopitar stays with Kostitsyn, and Johnson looks directly at Gionta but lets him go and the rebound goes directly TO Gionta. Gionta's wide open to make the pass, Plekanec's wide open for the shot. Brown, who initially got deked by Kostitsyn at the blue line, was checked and knocked down, and King is off on the open wing wandering around lost. They both drift toward Plekanec, but are too late. How in the World you can look at all of this and pin your blame on Kopitar is beyond me, man. Seriously, you are really reaching once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Dude's head is not into the game this year, and you cannot let a ppg stat line tell you that he has been anywhere near as effective as the Kings need him to be.

The linemates are only a small portion of that issue. Anze's problems are tied up in effort, notably the complete lack of second effort plays, regardless of who he is on the ice with or in what situations.
... 100% disagree. The hell his head isn't in the game, and the hell the LW situation isn't a big issue. He's done a fine job with what he's had to work with, considering he's had a makeshift situation on either side of him all season long. You want to disregard all the evidence, jump on a tired "effort" bandwagon, all the while providing no legit examples yourself and reaching as far as you can to pin blame on Kopitar. Pretty disappointing that all this is coming from you, I gotta say. I expected better.

JT Dutch* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 03:58 PM
  #36
dabeechman
Registered User
 
dabeechman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
Still true of every player in the NHL. Westgarth's point totals would multiply tenfold if he played with Ovechkin. So what?
You're looking at it the wrong way. Our first line has a kid that doesn't even belong in the NHL, let alone the first line.

dabeechman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 04:31 PM
  #37
funky
Registered User
 
funky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Sask
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabeechman View Post
You're looking at it the wrong way. Our first line has a kid that doesn't even belong in the NHL, let alone the first line.
this, I know he's professional and all, but do you think he comes to the rink and wants to bust his .... when management can't even or doesn't care to give him a linemate that is NHL worthy. Bring in a guy like Vanek and see what happens. He would be a 95 point two way center

funky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 04:51 PM
  #38
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Alright Ziggy, here ya go.

Here are some Kopi stats just for reference.

He's 23yo playing in his 5th NHL season.

For the purposes of the sample (players that you listed as being top line centers) I took the 3rd and 4rth seasons for comparison along with their current numbers.

In Kopi's 3rd season his numbers were 27 goals/39 assists for 66 points.
In Kopi's 4rth season he had 34 goals and 47 assists for 81 points.

Kopi's current or 5th season his numbers are after 20 games 7 goals/13 assists for 20 points.
My position is going to be based around Kopitar's production, his age and his line mates for during his young career.


I had to omit Crosby (if that is cool) as he is a 99/66 type of player or a generational talent and there is only one of them in the league right now and then there are two others Malkin and Stamkos who might have the same abilities but I will outline where they differ later on.

I took the following top line centers from your list (out of laziness really).

Joe Thornton
Nik Backstrom
Ryan WAAAAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAAAAH! Getzlaf
Johnny Toews (I had a maths teacher who's last name was Toews when I was a wet little kid)
And the child of the damned Semin. I also for fun added in the young Mr Stamkos and will start with him but I do actually think that he might be another generational talent and as such really wouldn't make a fair comparison.

So Steven Stamkos.

This season #'s after 23 games.
21 goals/17 assists for 38 points.

His line mates (though they shuffle too a little)

Ryan Malone
5 goals/9 assists 14pts

Martin St.L
8 goals/21 assists 29 pts

MsL is currently the top producing RW in the game and R Malone has finally gotten over his early season hand injury and is starting to produce as well.

Kopitar has yet to have a winger the caliber of MsL to work with but like I said, I believe that Stamkos has generational talent written all over him and feel that comparing him, Crosby and Malkin to Kopitar and all of the other centers you have listed isn't really a fair comparison.


Off to the actuals.

Evil Sedin

He is 30 years old so I took his fourth season as a comparable as he was 22/23 during it and it allows us to use Kopi's last season (his fourth) as a fair comp.

During Sedin's fourth season he played in 76 games and produced 42 pts 11 goals/ 31 assists. He played the majority of the season on the nuckleheads top line with his brother on the wing. Since his numbers were significantly lower than Kopis 4rth season I won't bother to list the stats for his wingers.

My point against Sedin being any better than Kopi would be that Kopitar is significantly more productive then evil Henrik was at the same age and in fact, it wasn't until his 6th season that Sedin broke the 80 point mark, something that Kopi did during his fourth season.

I would argue that Kopitar is better at 23 than Sedin was by a mile and I can't see any reason for Kopitar not to continue to develop into a much better top line center than him (Sedin).

Next is Joe Thornton.

Again I am using the age/experience discrepancy as the base of my argument. Here are the numbers.

JT's 3rd season totals

23 goals/37 assists 60 points
JT's fourth season

37 goals/34 assists 71 points.

Again if we go back to Kopitars production at the same age we see that so far he (AK) has been better at the same age as those who you have listed as being top line centers and in JT's case by a bit.


Now on to the more relevant (age wise) comparisons.

First Nik Backstroke

His 3rd season of centering Ovechkin and Semin point totals.

33 goals/68 assists for 101 points

I used their second seasons as a comparison instead of 3/4 due to NB having played one less season than Kopi.

NB's second season of centering Ovechkin and Semin

22 goals/66 assists for 88 points.

When you compare NB's second season to Kopitars (77 points 32 goals/34 assists) and consider that Backstrom centers both Ovechkin and Semin during the season (though not always at the same time) you have to at least consider it a possibility that Kopitar would at least do the same if not more than NB has to date.

Next Ryan WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

3rd season totals

24 goals/58 assists for 82 points.

4rth season totals

25 goals/ 66 assists for 91 points.

While RG is off to a slow start this season I would again argue that he and Kopitar are at least comparable talents when you add in the fact that he (RG) has centered Teemu and Fairy during those two seasons where Kopitar center Dustin Brown and several other players who aren't going into the hall of fame (save Smyth but how many games did they pair up).


Finally Jonny T.

His second season point production

34 goals/35 assists for 69 dude points.

His third season he won the Stanley Cup with Sharp as his wing. Point totals.
25 goals/43 assists for 68 points.

Now the fact that JT won the cup speaks volumes to the argument that point production isn't everything but, I would counter that argument by saying that I believe that Kopitar might have had the same type of success if he was in the exact same circumstances.

The difficult thing about these types of comparisons is that other than things like point totals and maybe minutes played, plus minus (which I have if they are needed) and who the players center you really haven't anything else to use for the debate.

Clearly if we use the point production totals at the same age/point in each of these players careers then Kopi is at least as good as the players you have listed as being top line centers. I understand that it isn't a completely fair comparison though because you can't really use anything to weigh the intangibles besides an opinion based position.


So I will stand with allowing the numbers to bare me out. Kopitar is at the age of 23 as good as or even better than some of the players that you have listed as being top line centers.

I also believe that if you compare any of the players that you list as being top line centers agains Crosby and possibly Malkin/Stamkos that you will see that they compare about the same as Kopitar does against these guys.

Thoughts?

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 05:24 PM
  #39
Lead Role in a Cage
Registered User
 
Lead Role in a Cage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 435
vCash: 500
Getzlaf
First line center on a Stanley Cup champion at 21, Olympic champion 2010

Thornton
Art Ross, Hart Trophy, 101 points in the dead puck era at 23, assist leader three seasons, top-2 assists two times, top-5 in scoring five times.

Toews
Conn Smythe Trophy (six months ago) at 21 (you really mean Kopitar would have emulated that feat?), Olympic champion 2010, Best forward in the olympics 2010.

Sedin
Art Ross Trophy, Hart Trophy, Olympic Champion 2006.

I'd say Roy, Stastny and Zajak are his comparable peers and not the upper echelon of this league. You know, those who actually have achieved something.

Lead Role in a Cage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 05:35 PM
  #40
no name
Registered User
 
no name's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 11,939
vCash: 500
If people dog Kopitar than they have to dog Thorton. The guy is the ultimate floater. He's supremely hard to play against due to his skill, strength and reach but the guy doesn't drive to the net and and doesn't move without the puck. It's been a knock on him since Boston.

no name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 05:39 PM
  #41
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Role in a Cage View Post
Getzlaf
First line center on a Stanley Cup champion at 21, Olympic champion 2010

Thornton
Art Ross, Hart Trophy, 101 points in the dead puck era at 23, assist leader three seasons, top-2 assists two times, top-5 in scoring five times.

Toews
Conn Smythe Trophy (six months ago) at 21 (you really mean Kopitar would have emulated that feat?), Olympic champion 2010, Best forward in the olympics 2010.

Sedin
Art Ross Trophy, Hart Trophy, Olympic Champion 2006.

I'd say Roy, Stastny and Zajak are his comparable peers and not the upper echelon of this league. You know, those who actually have achieved something.
Getzlaf was 21 when he won the cup but my question is this, 1, how much did he himself have to do with that championship and 2, what did he do that Kopitar in the same situation couldn't have done?

Joe Thornton was in his 6th season when he scored 101 points. He also had two of the best wingers in the game one of which is a sure fire HOFer to center.

Toews, what criteria are you using to say that Kopitar wouldn't have accomplished the same thing on the same team? Kopitar has consistently outscored JT without a Patrick Sharp or Patrick Kane to center.

Sedin by 2006 had already played in 6 NHL seasons all on the top line and all with his brother a 100pt scoring winger on his line each of those years. Again, what criteria are you using to say that Koptiar couldn't accomplish the same things in the same circumstances?

I am curious because top line centers are compared based on their point production first and then their intangibles second. If Kopitar has scored as much or more than each of these players when they were the same age as him then what criteria are you going to base your position on?

If it is only based on accolades then again you have to have a foundation for your argument and I am going to again use Kopitars production as my own.

People are really banging on about Kopitar and my point is that if you compare him against his peers he is at least comparable with all but the gloried elite and there is really only one of them or at best arguably 3.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 05:39 PM
  #42
no name
Registered User
 
no name's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 11,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Role in a Cage View Post
Getzlaf
First line center on a Stanley Cup champion at 21, Olympic champion 2010

Thornton
Art Ross, Hart Trophy, 101 points in the dead puck era at 23, assist leader three seasons, top-2 assists two times, top-5 in scoring five times.

Toews
Conn Smythe Trophy (six months ago) at 21 (you really mean Kopitar would have emulated that feat?), Olympic champion 2010, Best forward in the olympics 2010.

Sedin
Art Ross Trophy, Hart Trophy, Olympic Champion 2006.

I'd say Roy, Stastny and Zajak are his comparable peers and not the upper echelon of this league. You know, those who actually have achieved something.
Olympics mean absolutely nothing in this debate. It doesn't help in determining ones value and it's not fair to compare Kopitar to olympic feats. Also, you completely disregard his entire argument of comparing players to their comparable ages and level of line help.

no name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 06:30 PM
  #43
Lead Role in a Cage
Registered User
 
Lead Role in a Cage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Getzlaf was 21 when he won the cup but my question is this, 1, how much did he himself have to do with that championship and 2, what did he do that Kopitar in the same situation couldn't have done?

2. Joe Thornton was in his 6th season when he scored 101 points. He also had two of the best wingers in the game one of which is a sure fire HOFer to center.

3.Toews, what criteria are you using to say that Kopitar wouldn't have accomplished the same thing on the same team? Kopitar has consistently outscored JT without a Patrick Sharp or Patrick Kane to center.

Sedin by 2006 had already played in 6 NHL seasons all on the top line and all with his brother a 100pt scoring winger on his line each of those years. 4. Again, what criteria are you using to say that Koptiar couldn't accomplish the same things in the same circumstances?

I am curious because top line centers are compared based on their point production first and then their intangibles second. If Kopitar has scored as much or more than each of these players when they were the same age as him then what criteria are you going to base your position on?

If it is only based on accolades then again you have to have a foundation for your argument and I am going to again use Kopitars production as my own.

5. People are really banging on about Kopitar and my point is that if you compare him against his peers he is at least comparable with all but the gloried elite and there is really only one of them or at best arguably 3.
1. He was arguably the best forward on the Stanley Cup winner at 21. He anchored the first line of the Ducks (that's right, Selanne/McDonald/Kunitz we're not the first line)? He was outstanding. You're saying Kopitar might have done the same? Based on what? Him not being able to anchor a line in October/November?

2. Who? Mike Knuble and Glen Murray? Prime time players I am sure.

3. I am not sure I can take that serious. You do know there is a difference between the warm-up season and the actual season? You're saying that because of Sharp and Kane Kopitar would have done the same? That's a LOT of bogus and dishonesty to be kind. What we do know is, Toews won the Conn Smythe trophy, being the best player on the best team in the world. We know nothing about Kopitar and the real season, besides 6 games. What do we know concerning Toews?

4 Considering he actually have acheived that, what makes you think that Kopitar might do it? I don't get it. He has done it, ergo we know what he can do. With Kopitar we can only guess and thus speculate.

5. You are really saying only Stamkos, Crosby and Malkin are ahead? I guess I can't help you.

In general you are basing your argument on circumstances. You are assuming Kopitar would have done the same if put in the same situation. Guess what? He is not in that situation so your conclusions concerning the almighty "what if" thesis is not enough to try to prove he is as good as the best in the league. You are applying he should/would/could on various stars who accomplished something but are forgeting the most important, he didn't and hasn't.

Using your logic, he could be as good- but isn't. That is all that matters until proven otherwise. I could be a millionaire but I am not despite my "elite level" talent.

Lead Role in a Cage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 06:33 PM
  #44
Lead Role in a Cage
Registered User
 
Lead Role in a Cage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by no name View Post
Olympics mean absolutely nothing in this debate. It doesn't help in determining ones value and it's not fair to compare Kopitar to olympic feats. Also, you completely disregard his entire argument of comparing players to their comparable ages and level of line help.
I agree that it is unfair to compare Kopitar and his Olympic destiny. That does not take away the fact that Kopitar's "comparables" won it, and some did it with perhaps the most pressure put on a national team since, the 70's if that? Thay delivered.

How am I disregarding his argument?

Lead Role in a Cage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 06:44 PM
  #45
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
So your entire argument is based on your opinion and not on any factual evidence then LRIC?

Alright.

So in your opinion Kopitar doesn't stand up.

I will stick with the facts and we will both see what happens down the road.

Sorry but its a weakness on my part that I don't know how to make a valid argument or have a factual debate on the merits of something with someone who is basing their position on opinion. Not being snarky, I just can't do it.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 06:48 PM
  #46
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Role in a Cage View Post
I agree that it is unfair to compare Kopitar and his Olympic destiny. That does not take away the fact that Kopitar's "comparables" won it, and some did it with perhaps the most pressure put on a national team since, the 70's if that? Thay delivered.

How am I disregarding his argument?
Well then following your logic we can also say that Kopitar has superior talent and speaking Slovakian then Getzlaf and Semin etc.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 07:28 PM
  #47
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 35,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
For the purposes of the sample (players that you listed as being top line centers) I took the 3rd and 4rth seasons for comparison along with their current numbers.
I look at the entire body of work and just observe if a player can take control of a game or a shift and create scoring opportunities for himself or his teammates. Kopitar has done that from to time, but that type of effort has been inconsistent, which is exactly what separates him from being in an elite class of centers.

Quote:
In Kopi's 3rd season his numbers were 27 goals/39 assists for 66 points.
In Kopi's 4rth season he had 34 goals and 47 assists for 81 points.

Kopi's current or 5th season his numbers are after 20 games 7 goals/13 assists for 20 points.
My position is going to be based around Kopitar's production, his age and his line mates for during his young career.
I'd say the teammates Kopitar has had have been capable goal/point producers who can chip in with 20+ goals and 50-60+ points. He's had players like Smyth, Brown, Williams, Frolov, Cammalleri to Calder, Thornton, Ivanans, King, etc. I think this might indicate that coaches are constantly looking for the right fit for Kopitar to excel at, since apparently he is not able to do so himself, which again, separates him from the elite.

Quote:
Off to the actuals.

Evil Sedin

He is 30 years old so I took his fourth season as a comparable as he was 22/23 during it and it allows us to use Kopi's last season (his fourth) as a fair comp.

During Sedin's fourth season he played in 76 games and produced 42 pts 11 goals/ 31 assists. He played the majority of the season on the nuckleheads top line with his brother on the wing. Since his numbers were significantly lower than Kopis 4rth season I won't bother to list the stats for his wingers.

My point against Sedin being any better than Kopi would be that Kopitar is significantly more productive then evil Henrik was at the same age and in fact, it wasn't until his 6th season that Sedin broke the 80 point mark, something that Kopi did during his fourth season.

I would argue that Kopitar is better at 23 than Sedin was by a mile and I can't see any reason for Kopitar not to continue to develop into a much better top line center than him (Sedin).
Actually, the Sedin twins at that time were both on the second line with Trevor Linden. The top line was Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi. After four seasons, the Sedins got the opportunity to play on Vancouver's top line and they are without a doubt one of the toughest lines to play against. We see it every time the Kings play the Canucks. They are able to control the puck and make plays more so than Kopitar has when they played against each other.

Quote:
Next is Joe Thornton.

Again I am using the age/experience discrepancy as the base of my argument. Here are the numbers.

JT's 3rd season totals

23 goals/37 assists 60 points
JT's fourth season

37 goals/34 assists 71 points.

Again if we go back to Kopitars production at the same age we see that so far he (AK) has been better at the same age as those who you have listed as being top line centers and in JT's case by a bit.
Let's compare the two at the same age. Thornton at 23 scored 101 points in 77 games. He turned Murray into something he never was, which is a 40 goal scorer. Thornton also helped make Knuble into a successful NHLer, helping him produce career high numbers. He had the same effect on Jonathan Cheechoo later on in San Jose. We have yet to see Kopitar make any of his linemates better players. For that reason, the Sharks have always finished ahead of the Kings and will continue to do so.

Quote:
Now on to the more relevant (age wise) comparisons.

First Nik Backstroke

His 3rd season of centering Ovechkin and Semin point totals.

33 goals/68 assists for 101 points

I used their second seasons as a comparison instead of 3/4 due to NB having played one less season than Kopi.

NB's second season of centering Ovechkin and Semin

22 goals/66 assists for 88 points.

When you compare NB's second season to Kopitars (77 points 32 goals/34 assists) and consider that Backstrom centers both Ovechkin and Semin during the season (though not always at the same time) you have to at least consider it a possibility that Kopitar would at least do the same if not more than NB has to date.
As good as Ovechkin and Semin are as individuals, look at Backstrom on his own. Semin is known to take nights off here and there, and Ovechkin missed a chunk of games last season. When those two aren't performing up to their level, Backstrom is the player that the Caps have to depend on. He is another player who can accentuate his teammates skills and in my opinion, is one of the best all-around players in the NHL. He's a superior playmaker to Kopitar and has game breaking abilities, another trait lacking from Kopitar's recent play.

Quote:
Next Ryan WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

3rd season totals

24 goals/58 assists for 82 points.

4rth season totals

25 goals/ 66 assists for 91 points.

While RG is off to a slow start this season I would again argue that he and Kopitar are at least comparable talents when you add in the fact that he (RG) has centered Teemu and Fairy during those two seasons where Kopitar center Dustin Brown and several other players who aren't going into the hall of fame (save Smyth but how many games did they pair up).
Getzlaf started by centering two other rookies who all broke in together, Penner and Perry. Selanne played with Kunitz on his opposite wing. Getzlaf has so many more intangibles that make him a more dangerous player. He's more physical, can dish out hits, has a blistering shot, is also a highly creative skilled center with playmaking skills. He racked 91 points when he was 23. We have yet to see Kopitar reach that 90 point mark. He's inching closer, but his inconsistent effort is going to make it difficult for him to reach that level.

Quote:
Finally Jonny T.

His second season point production

34 goals/35 assists for 69 dude points.

His third season he won the Stanley Cup with Sharp as his wing. Point totals.
25 goals/43 assists for 68 points.

Now the fact that JT won the cup speaks volumes to the argument that point production isn't everything but, I would counter that argument by saying that I believe that Kopitar might have had the same type of success if he was in the exact same circumstances.

The difficult thing about these types of comparisons is that other than things like point totals and maybe minutes played, plus minus (which I have if they are needed) and who the players center you really haven't anything else to use for the debate.

Clearly if we use the point production totals at the same age/point in each of these players careers then Kopi is at least as good as the players you have listed as being top line centers. I understand that it isn't a completely fair comparison though because you can't really use anything to weigh the intangibles besides an opinion based position.
Here is what separates Kopitar and Toews (besides the Stanley Cup and Olympic gold medal). Toews has already demonstrated that he's a winner at every level. He is the ultimate competitor. This kid has been compared to Steve Yzerman his draft year and has already accomplished what it took Yzerman 13 years to accomplish. He took his game to another level in the playoffs and is a clutch performer. Until I see Kopitar pull through in the most critical moments of a game, I'd consider Toews to be his superior.

Quote:
So I will stand with allowing the numbers to bare me out. Kopitar is at the age of 23 as good as or even better than some of the players that you have listed as being top line centers.

I also believe that if you compare any of the players that you list as being top line centers agains Crosby and possibly Malkin/Stamkos that you will see that they compare about the same as Kopitar does against these guys.

Thoughts?
While I don't consider Getzlaf or Thornton to be as dangerous players as Crosby or Stamkos, I think they come close to that class of players by the way they are able to make in impact in a game with their ability to control the tempo of a game. They possess the skills you find in #1 centers who lead their team to victory.

When was the last time we could pinpoint a game and say "Wow, Kopitar performed like a dominant, elite center tonight." When did Kopitar ever make any of his linemates perform better? We have yet to see that from him. And if he is incapable of doing so, then he's not cutout to be a top 10 center in the NHL. Top 15, sure, but he is not in that elite class, YET.

I'm not saying he's hit a wall and will remain to be this way, but if he doesn't wise up and start performing at the level he is capable of playing, them I'm afraid he will forever be lumped with that second tier class of centers. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it would mean that Lombardi would have to look elsewhere to find a center who can lead this team to success.


Last edited by Ziggy Stardust: 11-25-2010 at 07:46 PM.
Ziggy Stardust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 07:42 PM
  #48
BringTheReign
Registered User
 
BringTheReign's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Orange County
Country: United States
Posts: 2,342
vCash: 500
...Good breakdown of the Kopitar hate. Stats don't tell the whole story, but this info definitively sheds new light on the topic.

BringTheReign is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 08:15 PM
  #49
no name
Registered User
 
no name's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 11,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
As good as Ovechkin and Semin are as individuals, look at Backstrom on his own. Semin is known to take nights off here and there, and Ovechkin missed a chunk of games last season. When those two aren't performing up to their level, Backstrom is the player that the Caps have to depend on. He is another player who can accentuate his teammates skills and in my opinion, is one of the best all-around players in the NHL. He's a superior playmaker to Kopitar and has game breaking abilities, another trait lacking from Kopitar's recent play.



.
There is absolutely no way to know one way or the other. Backstrom has never been without help. He has so much firepower on his line in a system where they create twice as many chances as the enxt team in the NHL because they throw caution to the wind on every possesion. Their dmen are activated every time. It's like a non stop PP. And lets not forget he has the best LW in hockey, a top 4 offensive RW in hockey and the best offensive dman we've seen in god knows how long beside him allowing Backstrom to move anywhere he wants on the ice.

Meanwhile it was obvious that Kopitar got the message that he needs to take it to the middle the last couple games since he uncharacteristicaly tried to force his way down the middle into 3 guys, who sandwiched him each time. There isn't one center in hockey that can fight off two and three guys every time he carries the puck in a remotely dangerous zone. He only passes to Brown and his dmen. Nobody, including our dmen pass to King. King isn't even being defended while two guys move on Anze before he even gets in a position to be passed to, unless he's on the boards. Every NHL team is denying Anze the puck unless he's on the boards. If he is drawing that much attention then you can only blame everyone else for not allowing Anze to make them better. Why can't the open man help out? At what point is it NOT Anze's fault?


Last edited by no name: 11-25-2010 at 08:20 PM.
no name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2010, 08:35 PM
  #50
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,989
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I look at the entire body of work and just observe if a player can take control of a game or a shift and create scoring opportunities for himself or his teammates. Kopitar has done that from to time, but that type of effort has been inconsistent, which is exactly what separates him from being in an elite class of centers.



I'd say the teammates Kopitar has had have been capable goal/point producers who can chip in with 20+ goals and 50-60+ points. He's had players like Smyth, Brown, Williams, Frolov, Cammalleri to Calder, Thornton, Ivanans, King, etc. I think this might indicate that coaches are constantly looking for the right fit for Kopitar to excel at, since apparently he is not able to do so himself, which again, separates him from the elite.



Actually, the Sedin twins at that time were both on the second line with Trevor Linden. The top line was Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi. After four seasons, the Sedins got the opportunity to play on Vancouver's top line and they are without a doubt one of the toughest lines to play against. We see it every time the Kings play the Canucks. They are able to control the puck and make plays more so than Kopitar has when they played against each other.



Let's compare the two at the same age. Thornton at 23 scored 101 points in 77 games. He turned Murray into something he never was, which is a 40 goal scorer. Thornton also helped make Knuble into a successful NHLer, helping him produce career high numbers. He had the same effect on Jonathan Cheechoo later on in San Jose. We have yet to see Kopitar make any of his linemates better players. For that reason, the Sharks have always finished ahead of the Kings and will continue to do so.



As good as Ovechkin and Semin are as individuals, look at Backstrom on his own. Semin is known to take nights off here and there, and Ovechkin missed a chunk of games last season. When those two aren't performing up to their level, Backstrom is the player that the Caps have to depend on. He is another player who can accentuate his teammates skills and in my opinion, is one of the best all-around players in the NHL. He's a superior playmaker to Kopitar and has game breaking abilities, another trait lacking from Kopitar's recent play.



Getzlaf started by centering two other rookies who all broke in together, Penner and Perry. Selanne played with Kunitz on his opposite wing. Getzlaf has so many more intangibles that make him a more dangerous player. He's more physical, can dish out hits, has a blistering shot, is also a highly creative skilled center with playmaking skills. He racked 91 points when he was 23. We have yet to see Kopitar reach that 90 point mark. He's inching closer, but his inconsistent effort is going to make it difficult for him to reach that level.



Here is what separates Kopitar and Toews (besides the Stanley Cup and Olympic gold medal). Toews has already demonstrated that he's a winner at every level. He is the ultimate competitor. This kid has been compared to Steve Yzerman his draft year and has already accomplished what it took Yzerman 13 years to accomplish. He took his game to another level in the playoffs and is a clutch performer. Until I see Kopitar pull through in the most critical moments of a game, I'd consider Toews to be his superior.



While I don't consider Getzlaf or Thornton to be as dangerous players as Crosby or Stamkos, I think they come close to that class of players by the way they are able to make in impact in a game with their ability to control the tempo of a game. They possess the skills you find in #1 centers who lead their team to victory.

When was the last time we could pinpoint a game and say "Wow, Kopitar performed like a dominant, elite center tonight." When did Kopitar ever make any of his linemates perform better? We have yet to see that from him. And if he is incapable of doing so, then he's not cutout to be a top 10 center in the NHL. Top 15, sure, but he is not in that elite class, YET.

I'm not saying he's hit a wall and will remain to be this way, but if he doesn't wise up and start performing at the level he is capable of playing, them I'm afraid he will forever be lumped with that second tier class of centers. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it would mean that Lombardi would have to look elsewhere to find a center who can lead this team to success.
Nice response Ziggy

There are some things that I take issue with an example would be your listing Calder Thorton Ivanans etc as anything more than 3rd liners who aren't comparable to any of the wingers that the top line centers that you have listed have had to contend with. Adding to that I would say that yes, Kopi did play most of a full season with Squid on his wing and even Frolov as well. He never has had Smyth for a full season nor Williams so I don't think that they even enter in to supporting your position.

In fact listing all of the wingers and the amount of time that Kopitar has actually has makes his accomplishments up to this point in his very young career more astonishing to me.

I will go through the whole crummy breakdown of specifically who played with which (no witch) wingers for each of the centers for each of their third and fourth (or where required second and third) and what their best numbers where with each of those players but not tonight.

I always though of Linden and Sedin Sedin as being the top line back then but Nas Twosie is more likely the top line. Still, so are you arguing that the revolving door of wingers that Frolov has had is comparable to playing with one winger, your brother who you grew up playing with on every team you ever played with *and* Trevor Linden? Not even close. Especially when you consider the fact that both of AK's coaches during his short career have been ridiculous line jugglers.

I give you the success that the Smyth Kopi Williams line had to start last season as an example. Things are going great and then unfortunately Williams breaks his leg. Does our coach lock in DB as the RW on that line and give the new line mates time to gel? Nope. He instead bounces the pairing around until it finally just doesn't work. I understand that TM wanted to spread out the scoring and yada yada yada the rest but the end result is that Kopitar proved in short time when given two legitimate top line wingers that he can produce at a very high level.

We can argue this hours on end but I see this in the end coming up to opinions regarding intangibles like one being a greater competitor then another or another having received an award that the other hasn't etc.

The bottom line is that Kopitar at 23 without the luxury of having top line wingers on a consistent basis is producing at the same or greater level as most of the top line centers you have listed. You and I completely have opposite opinions on what makes an elite or generational talented forward so no point in debating those things, we will just end up with different opinions.

If we look at what each player did from their first to fourth season in the NHL the numbers break down like this....


Kopitar:

318 Games Played
113 Goals
172 Assists
285 points

Sedin

308 Games Played
44 Goals
102 Assists
146 Points

Joe Thornton

289 Games Played
79 goals
136 Assists
215 points

Cryin Getzlaf

297 Games Played
88 goals
184 Assists
272 points


There are three of the players that you have listed as being top line centers in the league today. My point stands in that at the same stage in their careers Kopitar is at least comparable in his point production and in some cases significantly so.

I will also contend that each of the players listed where on teams with significantly greater winning percentages then the Kings have been during Kopitars career to date. The Kings have the worst winning percentage out of the three teams listed during the first four seasons of these players careers by a significant amount.


Is Kopitar today comparable with Thornton? After 20 games Kopi is scoring more than Joe without the luxury of Danny Heatley.

Is he comparable today with Sedin? Is that even a fair comparison is the point that I have been trying to make the entire time. I don't think that Kopitar is comparable with these players on a game in and game out basis but he is at least comparable to them at the same age and Kopi is doing it with lesser talent on his wings for the most part and on a team that has only had 1 winning season during his time with them.


But to be fair I will add the breakdown of how many games each player had played with which specific wingers and what their numbers where along with their results. I will also include NB and JT at the same time.

In the end though I will stand my position and that is that the numbers prove that under lesser circumstances Kopitar is comparable to most of the players listed in as far as production is concerned and now that we have a team that can compete we will be better able to judge how he stands up against their accomplishments in time as well.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.