I love Giroux as much as the next Flyers fan but if I'm able to choose one to build a team around I choose Toews, and I choose pretty quickly. Just my opinion though.
correction - they are the same age, minus a few months.
Giroux will be the better player. I love how so many know-nothings on this board always say: "well he won this trophy..." or "he won that trophy..." You people DO realize that Toews was arguably NOT the best player in the playoffs last year, right? Briere put up more points, and Pronger and Keith were an absolute studs throughout the entire run. Toews was held scoreless for the first few games of the finals too. As it relates to Giroux, he did have 21pts in 23 games - not that far behind Toews. It's not like he was out-classed by Toews. So the trophys don't mean as much as you guys make them out to be.
BTW - if you don't think Giroux has the more well well-rounded game, you only watching highlights and not really watching the guuy play. He and Richards this year are our most dangerous weapons on the PK, and he's playing the PK every night. He's one of the more defensively responsible guys on the team right now.
Giroux is the more offensively-gifted player, he's at least as good in his own end, he's a premier PK guy in the league, and he brings it every night. Not to mention, his physical play is often overlooked. He throws the body, and fights in the corners.
No offense, but I laughed at how hypocritical that is.
I'm not saying Giroux doesn't get overhyped a bit, but it's not like Toews isn't getting his fair shake and then some lately.
Tough poll, but Giroux has more offensive talent while still remaining very good defensively. I'll take him in the future.
I agree it's Toews as of the start of this year, but it could very easily have changed by next summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvr
By the start of next summer, M. Richards or Giroux? Easily Toews is equal to Richards right now, and I don't expect that Richards has *as much* room to improve as Toews does (or Giroux, for that matter).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
There's your issue. I don't see Toews as equal to Richards right now. Maybe in the future, but not right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvr
Of course you wouldn't. Your Flyers bias is legendary in these parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
My Flyers "bias," as it is called, only exists because I told Montreal fans that their goalies would not return JVR or Giroux.
The legend of my homer tendencies grows!I think people should get a clue about reality before they start throwing that word around.
Richards, right now, is better offensively than Toews, even if it's possible Toews becomes the better offensive player in the future.
So, in order for Toews to be on par with Richards, he'd have to be that much better than Richards defensively. I don't even think he's better than Richards defensively, so that's pretty much that.
The idea that Toews is a better player than Richards right now is pure hype. Nothing more.
Where there's smoke, there's fire...I'll try to address perceived Flyers players bias on your part some time today, between my culinary endeavors and family obligations on this Thanksgiving day. It's much easier to address the Richards/Toews comparison, noting that I still maintain that they are essentially equivalent, and I think most impartial observers will agree.
Both are captains at a young age, play in all three zones, possess intangibles that make watching them play a pleasure, and are winners. The olympics are an interesting comparison, as both played on the same team, and eventually the same line (and a dominating line it was). It was Richards that was moved from center, and Toews who played center. Arguably Toews also played better in the limited sample, and he earned the best forward award mostly for his defensive efforts (though he did lead the team in assists). His defense in all zones, by any conceivable and unbiased view, now is at least as good as Richards.
I'm not really into using all of the offensive stats. Just watching them gives the impression of equality. However, here it goes, full seasons only, first stat line is regular season, second playoffs, third olympics.
Not only do the stats look reasonably equal, give or take some points here or there, but Toews is accomplishing as much as Richards the past three years while being three years younger.
Don't have the time right now to look up faceoff percentage, pp and pk time, etc... However, I'm fairly certain that both players are comparable in these areas (though Toews is a beast at the dot).
^^^^You're comparing them when they were the same age. That's not the point and it doesn't prove anything. There was a lot of players better than Ed Belfour and Adam Oates at younger ages too. Doesn't mean anything. Richards is better than Toews right now.
Also, 10-15 points is a reasonably big gap. A 60 point players is not the same thing as an 80 point player.
^^^^You're comparing them when they were the same age. That's not the point and it doesn't prove anything. There was a lot of players better than Ed Belfour and Adam Oates at younger ages too. Doesn't mean anything. Richards is better than Toews right now.
Also, 10-15 points is a reasonably big gap. A 60 point players is not the same thing as an 80 point player.
No, the last comp I made was the last three years. Please read the whole post. If we do the math and include playoffs over the last three years for a larger sample, and ostensibly including "tougher" competition, then we have the following:
Richards: 280/104/155/259, for a 0.925 ppg total, incliuding playoffs
Toews: 260/97/136/233, for a 0.885 ppg total, including playoffs.
Hardly a slam dunk offensive victory for Richards. And while Richards may be more physical in open ice than Toews, he certainly isn't on the boards, the rest of their defensive games are comparable, and Toews probably has the edge on faceoff percentage. As I've maintained, by any objective standard, they are essentially equivalent players right now.
One final point. The 80/60 difference I see is not 20 pts as you imply, but 11 points (80 vs 69 pts in 2008-09).
Now back to the comparison in question. I am fully impressed with Giroux, believe he has an offensive flair that consistently eludes both Richards and Toews, and will most likely out point both by a slim margin in the coming years. I see Toews and Richards as 80-95 point players during their primes, given yearly fluctuations, and Giroux as 85-95 points with a tighter spread. I think Richards and Toews are still better hockey players than Giroux, though, now and in the future.
No offense, but I laughed at how hypocritical that is.
I'm not saying Giroux doesn't get overhyped a bit, but it's not like Toews isn't getting his fair shake and then some lately.
Tough poll, but Giroux has more offensive talent while still remaining very good defensively. I'll take him in the future.
I agree it's Toews as of the start of this year, but it could very easily have changed by next summer.
I think you may have misintepereted my post, I'm not the most fluent person when it comes to getting a point across.
I wasn't trying to sound like a hypocrite, I was saying that although I think Toews is extremely over-hyped I still think he is the better overall player at the moment, but not by a ton.
I think you may have misintepereted my post, I'm not the most fluent person when it comes to getting a point across.
I wasn't trying to sound like a hypocrite, I was saying that although I think Toews is extremely over-hyped I still think he is the better overall player at the moment, but not by a ton.
Yeah I know. I wasn't intending to come off rude or to call you out or anything.
Sorry if I came off that way.
I understand what you're saying. I have some issues with getting my point across as well sometimes. As a writer and an english major, you'd think I have no problem, but you'd be surprised what people can absorb and ignore from any given conversation.
Take the one above for example. This guy swore I was saying that Richards would be better forever, when all I was saying is that Richards is the better player right now.
[QUOTE=Chris Shafer;29163702]My Flyers "bias," as it is called, only exists because I told Montreal fans that their goalies would not return JVR or Giroux.
Not to derail this post but your Flyers bias needs to be responded to. Again JVR wouldn't come close to getting the Flyers Price.
Only in your wet dream would JVR be equal to Price and everyone on this boards knows that.. As for Giroux i wouldn't trade Price straight up for him. Thats in no way a knock against Giroux.
Bcak to the OP's question. I have to say right now Toews is the better overall player.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring?
correction - they are the same age, minus a few months.
Giroux will be the better player. I love how so many know-nothings on this board always say: "well he won this trophy..." or "he won that trophy..." You people DO realize that Toews was arguably NOT the best player in the playoffs last year, right? Briere put up more points, and Pronger and Keith were an absolute studs throughout the entire run. Toews was held scoreless for the first few games of the finals too. As it relates to Giroux, he did have 21pts in 23 games - not that far behind Toews. It's not like he was out-classed by Toews. So the trophys don't mean as much as you guys make them out to be.
BTW - if you don't think Giroux has the more well well-rounded game, you only watching highlights and not really watching the guuy play. He and Richards this year are our most dangerous weapons on the PK, and he's playing the PK every night. He's one of the more defensively responsible guys on the team right now.
Giroux is the more offensively-gifted player, he's at least as good in his own end, he's a premier PK guy in the league, and he brings it every night. Not to mention, his physical play is often overlooked. He throws the body, and fights in the corners.
Probably one of the best paragraphs written on this thread. This whole crap about "Jonathan Towes is a winner so he's better" is laughable. He's the most overrated player in NHL right now. It started with the Conn Smyth trophy he won that he didn't deserve (Duncan Keith was the CLEAR winner in my eyes, and may be Briere), and it continued to happen when the the idiots from TSN picked him THIRD best player in NHL right now. The whole thing is an absolute joke.
I picked Giroux. I can understand people picking Towes right now, because he has been in the league for longer and does have some 65+ points seasons. But, i fully expect Giroux to hit 70 points this year and i think he'll continue to put up 70+ points seasons throughout his career.
Not to derail this post but your Flyers bias needs to be responded to. Again JVR wouldn't come close to getting the Flyers Price.
Only in your wet dream would JVR be equal to Price and everyone on this boards knows that.. As for Giroux i wouldn't trade Price straight up for him. Thats in no way a knock against Giroux.
Bcak to the OP's question. I have to say right now Toews is the better overall player.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring?
JVR or Eller and Schultz? Honest answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueShirtss
Probably one of the best paragraphs written on this thread. This whole crap about "Jonathan Towes is a winner so he's better" is laughable. He's the most overrated player in NHL right now. It started with the Conn Smyth trophy he won that he didn't deserve (Duncan Keith was the CLEAR winner in my eyes, and may be Briere), and it continued to happen when the the idiots from TSN picked him THIRD best player in NHL right now. The whole thing is an absolute joke.
I picked Giroux. I can understand people picking Towes right now, because he has been in the league for longer and does have some 65+ points seasons. But, i fully expect Giroux to hit 70 points this year and i think he'll continue to put up 70+ points seasons throughout his career.
It's playoff MVP not finals MVP. It's not basketball.
JVR or Eller and Schultz? Honest answer.It's playoff MVP not finals MVP. It's not basketball.
Oh i know. That's what i meant. I thought Duncan Keith was the best defensive player in the playoffs, and Briere was the most consistent offensive player throughout the playoffs..well in my opinion anyway.
Oh i know. That's what i meant. I thought Duncan Keith was the best defensive player in the playoffs, and Briere was the most consistent offensive player throughout the playoffs..well in my opinion anyway.
Who did you think should've won the Conn Smythe?
Toews or Kane. I thought Keith was sub par against Nashville.
Honest answer. If they were looking to deal Price that summer, nobody offers anything close to that. See what I did there?
Seriously Shafer is right. Habs fans went crazy when they found out thats all they got for Halak.
No Shafer is not right. Everyone knows that the Flyers were interrested in Price but the Habs had no interrest in trading him. Also not all Hab fans were disappointed in the return we got for Halak. I was quite happy with the return considering the market for goalies and i know many more that like the deal. I believe that the Flyers would have given up JVR for Halak but they were holding out for Price. The Habs decided to go another route in Eller from the Blues who imo will be a better player than JVR down the road. I have no doubt that Price would have got the return of Giroux from the Flyers that summer but the Habs weren't about to trade Price for Giroux.
Oh i know. That's what i meant. I thought Duncan Keith was the best defensive player in the playoffs, and Briere was the most consistent offensive player throughout the playoffs..well in my opinion anyway.
Who did you think should've won the Conn Smythe?
Shoulda been Keith. He shut down the Sedins, Kesler, Thornton, Pavelski, Heatley, Marleau, and then Richards, Carter, Giroux, and Briere on his way to the cup. Without him, the Hawks likely don't win the 2nd round.
No Shafer is not right. Everyone knows that the Flyers were interrested in Price but the Habs had no interrest in trading him. Also not all Hab fans were disappointed in the return we got for Halak. I was quite happy with the return considering the market for goalies and i know many more that like the deal. I believe that the Flyers would have given up JVR for Halak but they were holding out for Price. The Habs decided to go another route in Eller from the Blues who imo will be a better player than JVR down the road. I have no doubt that Price would have got the return of Giroux from the Flyers that summer but the Habs weren't about to trade Price for Giroux.
