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Why Does Bobby Orr Seem to be More Highly Appreciated Now than in His Own Time?

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Old
02-17-2016, 10:00 PM
  #1
Midnight Judges
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Why Does Bobby Orr Seem to be More Highly Appreciated Now than in His Own Time?

Just looking back, people generally consider him to be a top 2-4 player ever despite him really only playing 6 full seasons (8 if you count 61 and 63 game seasons).

If your career is going to be that short and people are going to put you up there with Gordie Howe - or even above him - those 6 seasons had better be pretty freakin ridiculous. And they were.....except Orr only won 1 Pearson, but they awarded it to 4 other players during 5 of his peak seasons.

He also won the Hart 3 times, which is great, but why not more times? How on Earth can a defenseman win the Art Ross by 8 points with 46 goals as a plus 80 and finish 3rd in Hart voting!?! It seems rather odd. Don't most of us look back at that season as a legendary all-time great season? If yes, why didn't the Hart voters see it that way?

I am just curious what is going on here. It appears as though people appreciate him much more now than his fellow players and the Hart voters did in his own time.

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02-17-2016, 10:07 PM
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Just saw this in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi
As a reminder, the Pearson was awarded in 1986 to the player who had contributed the most to the sport of hockey. It's different than the modern Pearson/Lindsay, which is awarded to the most outstanding player (whenever the ballots are actually submitted)
That may explain the lack of Pearsons, but certainly not the lack of winning the Hart in his second Art Ross year.

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02-17-2016, 10:26 PM
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Keep in mind that, ever since the Norris was introduced in 1954, defensemen have earned a disproportinately low percentage of Hart votes. I'd argue that the Hart voting results for top defensemen (Orr, Bourque, Lidstrom, Potvin, etc) almost always underrates their performance.

From 1947 to present, the only defensemen to finish in the top three for the Hart more than once are Orr (7 times), Kelly (3x - two of which were before the Norris was introduced), Bourque (2x) and Harvey (x2). Potvin and Pronger only did that once. Lidstrom, Park, Chelios, Robinson and Pilote never did. From this perspective, Orr stands far above any of his positional peers.

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02-17-2016, 10:32 PM
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I'm guessing the "most valuable player to his team" thing reared its head again. Maybe with Esposito on the same team, Orr stood out less than Clarke? Perhaps voters liked how few goals against were scored when Clarke was on the ice (only 52 goals against in 80 games in 74-75)?

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02-17-2016, 11:08 PM
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Red Kelly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Keep in mind that, ever since the Norris was introduced in 1954, defensemen have earned a disproportinately low percentage of Hart votes. I'd argue that the Hart voting results for top defensemen (Orr, Bourque, Lidstrom, Potvin, etc) almost always underrates their performance.

From 1947 to present, the only defensemen to finish in the top three for the Hart more than once are Orr (7 times), Kelly (3x - two of which were before the Norris was introduced), Bourque (2x) and Harvey (x2). Potvin and Pronger only did that once. Lidstrom, Park, Chelios, Robinson and Pilote never did. From this perspective, Orr stands far above any of his positional peers.
The value of a defenceman or his Hart Trophy worthiness were best exemplified by the Red Kelly situation.

Regularly from 1950 onwards with the Red Wings when Gordie Howe suffered a near fatal skull fracture, in a pinch the Red Wings would move Kelly to forward. 1950 playoffs beyond the first game Kelly played forward, replaced by rookie Marcel Pronovost. Through the fifties Kelly played stretches of games at forward most seasons. Traded to Toronto in 1960 he played mainly forward the rest of his career.
Kelly could support but not dominate offensively from the defece position.

Bobby Orr changed this perception of positional value since he drove, dominated the Bruins offensive game from the defence position, while playing better defence than contemporary d-men. Point is that this ability did not always translate into Hart Trophy value during his time in the NHL.

Likewise Harvey, Bourque and Lidstrom. Played incredible minutes with high degrees of performance. Valuable from the standpoint that the team would have to rely less on depth defencemen, the 4-7th d-man types, could play both sides if needed. Hart worthy? Unlike Orr teams did not strategize to stop them. Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom were going to transition or outlet the puck regardless. Key was covering the forwards who were the receivers of such passes.

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02-18-2016, 05:43 PM
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Because the way Orr influenced the game was still happening.

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02-18-2016, 08:47 PM
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I wouldn't read much into it. The majority of the hockey world knew who the best player was from 1969-76. Neither of those awards by definiton, are awarded to the best player.

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02-18-2016, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
I wouldn't read much into it. The majority of the hockey world knew who the best player was from 1969-76. Neither of those awards by definiton, are awarded to the best player.
Pretty much this, yes. At the same time there was huge appreciation & respect still for the Bobby Hull's, the Dave Keon's etc etc. It was an extremely interesting period to live through. People just were not so concerned with "who was #1"..... like a Letterman Top 10 List or whatever. Their was an equal & mutual admiration & respect for a sort of collection, cornucopia of a number of players... Beliveau, Lemaire, Sanderson in his prime.... like visiting an art gallery... oh, thats good, thats brilliant, I like that too..... wasnt this need to elevate one individual above all the rest of the stars... greater appreciation for the Journeyman, role players. Individual skill sets and how they complimented "team".

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02-18-2016, 09:33 PM
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Understanding the Totality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Pretty much this, yes. At the same time there was huge appreciation & respect still for the Bobby Hull's, the Dave Keon's etc etc. It was an extremely interesting period to live through. People just were not so concerned with "who was #1"..... like a Letterman Top 10 List or whatever. Their was an equal & mutual admiration & respect for a sort of collection, cornucopia of a number of players... Beliveau, Lemaire, Sanderson in his prime.... like visiting an art gallery... oh, thats good, thats brilliant, I like that too..... wasnt this need to elevate one individual above all the rest of the stars... greater appreciation for the Journeyman, role players. Individual skill sets and how they complimented "team".
Understanding and appreciating the totality of the game, how the units fit together to create the whole.

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02-18-2016, 09:39 PM
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How many 19 year olds in the NHL today would win the Norris trophy in their sophomore year with a mere 46 games played (of 74 games that season) with 11 goals and 20 assists?

None.

He was clearly more highly appreciated in his time than ANY player in the NHL today.


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02-18-2016, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Understanding and appreciating the totality of the game, how the units fit together to create the whole.
Pretty much yes as you well know.... you werent watching a Checkers match... Chess.... Orr I saw up close personal, faced him. Not scary. You just dont allow yourself to think that way of ANY player when your a player yourself. Now, did one know that yes, you were facing a special player, one with innate & obviously beyond brilliant vision and an unbelievable work ethic?..... Sure..... But you could stop him, you could stop anything, anyone... and you did. Were all human, Legends grow larger with age... stories oft told grow larger, like fishing tales. Hockey's a team sport, the ultimate team sport. Im biased, old school, beyond the crease? Skaters are skaters. Come at me. Take your best shot, you'll have to... Got your number. Prepare to be disappointed Bud. Your too easy to read and cant help it. Basic.

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02-18-2016, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
How many 19 year olds in the NHL today would win the Norris trophy in their sophomore year with a mere 46 games played (of 74 games that season) with 11 goals and 20 assists?

None.

He was clearly more highly appreciated in his time than ANY player in the NHL today.
That's the 10th highest-scoring defenseman that season. Orr led in points-per-game (0.67) and had the second best plus-minus (+30 in 46 games, versus the league leader who was +33 in 74 games) amongst defensemen that season.

Even though Orr missed 38% of the season, he was one of the highest impact defensemen that year.

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02-18-2016, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Pretty much this, yes. At the same time there was huge appreciation & respect still for the Bobby Hull's, the Dave Keon's etc etc. It was an extremely interesting period to live through. People just were not so concerned with "who was #1"..... like a Letterman Top 10 List or whatever. Their was an equal & mutual admiration & respect for a sort of collection, cornucopia of a number of players... Beliveau, Lemaire, Sanderson in his prime.... like visiting an art gallery... oh, thats good, thats brilliant, I like that too..... wasnt this need to elevate one individual above all the rest of the stars... greater appreciation for the Journeyman, role players. Individual skill sets and how they complimented "team".
Exactly the way I remember it.

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02-18-2016, 11:02 PM
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Exactly the way I remember it.
An Orchestra absent amplification. Sure you had your Violin Soloists' or what have you by the latest or greatest (and they could miss notes or overplay their instruments) but it was all part of a set-piece. Bobby Hull changed all of that with the Slapshot, akin to the Power Chord. How that affected popular music & really gave birth to what followed in the mid-to-late 60's. Electrification. Resonates to this day. Unfortunately, the louder the better. Gone all the subtleties, the nuance.

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02-18-2016, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Black Gold Extractor View Post
That's the 10th highest-scoring defenseman that season. Orr led in points-per-game (0.67) and had the second best plus-minus (+30 in 46 games, versus the league leader who was +33 in 74 games) amongst defensemen that season.

Even though Orr missed 38% of the season, he was one of the highest impact defensemen that year.
Listen to yourself.

Would such a record for a defenseman win the Norris today? Of course not.

Moreover, the Bruins barely made the playoffs that year and were swept in the first round, Orr getting 2 assists on the 8 goals the team had.

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02-19-2016, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
An Orchestra absent amplification. Sure you had your Violin Soloists' or what have you by the latest or greatest (and they could miss notes or overplay their instruments) but it was all part of a set-piece. Bobby Hull changed all of that with the Slapshot, akin to the Power Chord. How that affected popular music & really gave birth to what followed in the mid-to-late 60's. Electrification. Resonates to this day. Unfortunately, the louder the better. Gone all the subtleties, the nuance.
Wasn't it Boom Boom of the Canadiens that introduced the slap shot to the NHL?

Hull was the Stravinsky or Stockhausen of hockey. Not a knock on Hull.

Sometimes subtleties must fall by the wayside in the evolution of anything (hockey, music), lest stagnation set it.
The subleties of 'pure' cinema (ie: silent) had to give way to sound- at first mono acoustic, later multi channel stereopnonic surroundsound, cinemascope, color, CGI, 3D, and a whole other aesthetic of filmmaking.

Yeah, louder does not equal better, though the power chord can be very effective as played by some.

Thing that amazes me to this day, is the fact that the Orr led (juggernaut) Bruins of Cashman, Esposito, Bucyk, Hodge, et al only won 2 stanley cups.

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02-19-2016, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbh View Post
Wasn't it Boom Boom of the Canadiens that introduced the slap shot to the NHL?

Hull was the Stravinsky or Stockhausen of hockey. Not a knock on Hull.

Sometimes subtleties must fall by the wayside in the evolution of anything (hockey, music), lest stagnation set it.
The subleties of 'pure' cinema (ie: silent) had to give way to sound- at first mono acoustic, later multi channel stereopnonic surroundsound, cinemascope, color, CGI, 3D, and a whole other aesthetic of filmmaking.

Yeah, louder does not equal better, though the power chord can be very effective as played by some.

Thing that amazes me to this day, is the fact that the Orr led (juggernaut) Bruins of Cashman, Esposito, Bucyk, Hodge, et al only won 2 stanley cups.
No, the Slapshot had been around for some time prior to Geffrions claims. Not dissimilar to Link Wray purportedly being the originator of the Power Chord in 1958, Blues Artists were using it on recordings as early as 52/53 as studio technology advanced. But...if you have an ear, you can hear its foundings 40-60 years earlier.. Orr was not the "1st Rushing Defenceman"..... Far from it.... a lot of examples, indeed the now antique Rover, that was Bobby Orr. All borrowed from the past.... Hull, Bobby Hull however, that was different. Entirely new dimension. Nuclear Age. Deadly new weapon. Seriously altered the game.... that the the 2 most influential & seminal game changers of their age couldnt elevate their team mates to beyond Mini-Dynasty status is not surprising. This is a team sport as you know. Game of Mistakes. You got Morons on your team? Scream & Scream Again. Dont matter. Goin down. All about Work Ethic when your that good. You dont have that, you dont have 110% work ethic right across the board, your done.


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02-19-2016, 02:29 AM
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I do also have the impression (I wasn't alive in the early-70s) that Orr is more appreciated today -- or, recently -- than in his own day. I say this not so much because of the awarding of trophies -- there's always a bias against defencemen for Harts and such -- but because of contemporary accounts in books and film clips.

When I read hockey books about those days (books published in the 70s/80s), it was always "Bobby Orr and Phil Esposito". When I saw film of games during 1970-71, the broadcasters kept going on about Esposito's season, not about Orr. And I've never seen a contemporary account from Orr's playing days where he was called "the greatest player of all time" (I'm sure there were some, but I've never seen any).

I dunno, part of that may have just been the hockey culture of that age, but it was different with Gretzky where people were talking about him as maybe the greatest player ever when he was about 23.

So, anyway, I can see where the OP is coming from, and I think he (?) might be right.

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02-19-2016, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No, the Slapshot had been around for some time prior to Geffrions claims. Not dissimilar to Link Wray purportedly being the originator of the Power Chord in 1958, Blues Artists were using it on recordings as early as 52/53 as studio technology advanced. But...if you have an ear, you can hear its foundings 40-60 years earlier.. Orr was not the "1st Rushing Defenceman"..... Far from it.... a lot of examples, indeed the now antique Rover, that was Bobby Orr. All borrowed from the past.... Hull, Bobby Hull however, that was different. Entirely new dimension. Nuclear Age. Deadly new weapon. Seriously altered the game.... that the the 2 most influential & seminal game changers of their age couldnt elevate their team mates to beyond Mini-Dynasty status is not surprising. This is a team sport as you know. Game of Mistakes. You got Morons on your team? Scream & Scream Again. Dont matter. Goin down. All about Work Ethic when your that good. You dont have that, you dont have 110% work ethic right across the board, your done.
Agree with everything, but from a 1971 perspective it looked, at least to me, like the Bruins were set to reel off 4-5 cups in a row. They were formidable...scoring a total of 399 goals...10 players with 20 + goals. As I recall they broke all kinds of records that season.
Of course, as we all know, in the playoffs they ran into an obstacle named Dryden and co.

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02-19-2016, 02:37 AM
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I do also have the impression (I wasn't alive in the early-70s) that Orr is more appreciated today -- or, recently -- than in his own day. I say this not so much because of the awarding of trophies -- there's always a bias against defencemen for Harts and such -- but because of contemporary accounts in books and film clips.

When I read hockey books about those days (books published in the 70s/80s), it was always "Bobby Orr and Phil Esposito". When I saw film of games during 1970-71, the broadcasters kept going on about Esposito's season, not about Orr. And I've never seen a contemporary account from Orr's playing days where he was called "the greatest player of all time" (I'm sure there were some, but I've never seen any).

I dunno, part of that may have just been the hockey culture of that age, but it was different with Gretzky where people were talking about him as maybe the greatest player ever when he was about 23.

So, anyway, I can see where the OP is coming from, and I think he (?) might be right.
I remember broadcasters back in the day calling Orr the "greatest player"......referring to him as the"Golden Golden" (Hull being the "Golden Jet").


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02-19-2016, 03:38 AM
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In 69 and 74 his high scoring teammate won the award, and in 73 he possibly split the vote with Orr (who missed 15 or so games too.) Phil Esposito may have been better regarded back then.

Phil Esposito being really good would hurt Orr in contests with Clarke in 73 and 75, since Clarke's narrative was that he was the only skilled skater on a squad filled with goons.

What other year should Orr have won?

1975 is his best non-Hart year, but the Bruins declined to fifth place while Philly was first, Clarke was seen as doing as good a job with less help, and people may have been influenced by memories of who won the 74 Finals. I think no one would have known Clarke was only out for 19 ESGA, but they probably thought his +89 was competitive with Orr's +90.

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02-19-2016, 04:44 AM
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Appreciation

In January 1970 the Associated Press polled North American hockey writers to determine the best player of the 1960s. Bobby Orr who at that time was 21 and playing in his fourth NHL season was voted 3rd behind Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe. If that's not appreciation then I don't know what is.

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02-19-2016, 09:10 AM
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In January 1970 the Associated Press polled North American hockey writers to determine the best player of the 1960s. Bobby Orr who at that time was 21 and playing in his fourth NHL season was voted 3rd behind Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe. If that's not appreciation then I don't know what is.
I think it's a given that he was appreciated. The matter is whether contemporary commentators, broadcasters, etc. considered him the greatest player ever. (Those are two different things.)

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02-19-2016, 10:08 AM
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Injuries, partly.

Also, split votes with his own teammate, Espo, who was putting up record breaking, and for that time, mind bending stats. This was pre Gretzky, remember. When Espo had that 76/76 season at a time when 100 points and 50 goals was the gold standard for Superstardom, people freaked out.

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02-19-2016, 03:19 PM
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The thing with Gretzky is that his separation between him and, say, Messier/Coffey/Kurri was much larger than the separation from Orr to Esposito. Orr still drove the bus, but Esposito was better than any of Gretzky's teammates. This probably hurt Orr a bit with the Hart voting.

Here is how I look at it. I have no problem with either of his Norrises and don't think he deserved another one. But let's look at the Hart voting:

1969 - I am fine with Esposito winning this one. I know there have been detractors, but Orr was not Superhuman until next season.

1970 - Orr wins the Hart
1971 - Orr wins the Hart, Esposito wins the Pearson. I don't know, 152 points was insane, not to mention thrashing the single season goals record. That impressed people. I'd still have taken Orr.
1972 - Orr wins the Hart. Ratelle wins the Pearson. A bit of an odd one. I agree that Esposito and Orr were probably getting some voter fatigue by now but they were still both better than Ratelle that year.

1973 - Orr misses 15 games. That was the difference I think. Clarke wins the Pearson and Hart. Personally, I'd have picked Esposito for both, he had the better season and was still having his superstardom years then.

1974 - Esposito wins the Pearson and Hart. Looking back, did Esposito's 145 points really trump Orr's 122 that much? All I can think of is that in 1973 the Bruins just literally collapsed in the postseason when Esposito went down with an injury. That showed the type of impact Esposito had and he came back with probably the 2nd best season of his career. Voters may have remembered this.

1975 - Clarke wins the Hart Orr wins the Pearson. I don't get this one either. Never have. Patrick Kane is probably winning the Hart this year for a variety of reasons, but if Erik Karlsson led the NHL in points my guess is he wins the Hart even if Ottawa isn't as good as Chicago. It could be voter fatigue, or the fact that defensemen have the Norris and quite often it falls into the category that a pitcher has in baseball where they have the Cy Young Award and it is thought that they already were recognized. Either way, I'm not buying it. Orr should have won the Hart in 1975. Orr also finished lower than Rogie Vachon. I can understand with all of the things he did and such for the Kings so I get why it happened, I just don't agree with it. A defenseman leading the NHL in scoring wins the Hart.

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