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Old
11-30-2010, 06:54 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by SENSfreak_03 View Post
so we fire CC with no other changes, how long until they give up on the next guy when things don't go their way? Bunch of babies.
Exactly, these guys are coach killers. It's a core who's been around for so long who are comfortably basking in the glow of their NTC's and NMC's and ruling as Kings in that locker room.

There's zero doubt in my mind that Phillips should be moved at the deadline, unless we want to lose ANOTHER asset for nothing through free agency. Either way he needs to be gone. We seriously need to dismantle that core. The older guys won't get it done for us anyways might as well try and get something back for them.

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11-30-2010, 06:55 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by RedWhiteBlackGold View Post
Not sure how you got Alfie and Clouston not getting along, out of both having different opinions on the loss.
Because the reporters in the scrum said it was a loud disagreement beween captain and coach. I've listened to the interview and although it doesn't seem that bad, I think you have to read between the lines a little bit.
Alfie never does stuff like that, and I'm not saying I'm %100, that their is a huge rift here, but I also think there is some evidence to it too.
This team looks alot like the team under hartsburg.
We know that more than one player has said things about the coaching.
Alfie never does this kind of thing, so the reporters would also know if he's saying something without saying something.

Of course the reporters could be full of **** too.

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11-30-2010, 07:05 AM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
Because the reporters in the scrum said it was a loud disagreement beween captain and coach. I've listened to the interview and although it doesn't seem that bad, I think you have to read between the lines a little bit.
Alfie never does stuff like that, and I'm not saying I'm %100, that their is a huge rift here, but I also think there is some evidence to it too.
This team looks alot like the team under hartsburg.
We know that more than one player has said things about the coaching.
Alfie never does this kind of thing, so the reporters would also know if he's saying something without saying something.

Of course the reporters could be full of **** too.
I'll listen to the interview but you got to keep in mind, this is the Ottawa media.

If Clouston had a tuna sandwich and offered Alfie half which he declined simply because he didn't like tuna and had his own chicken salad sandwich, the media would somehow blow it up to be "Alfie isn't a team player, is too good for Clouston's system, doesn't like the coach, etc"

I'm sure he's just frustrated with the team and his own performance as he hasn't been very good as of late.

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11-30-2010, 07:10 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by RedWhiteBlackGold View Post
I'll listen to the interview but you got to keep in mind, this is the Ottawa media.

If Clouston had a tuna sandwich and offered Alfie half which he declined simply because he didn't like tuna and had his own chicken salad sandwich, the media would somehow blow it up to be "Alfie isn't a team player, is too good for Clouston's system, doesn't like the coach, etc"

I'm sure he's just frustrated with the team and perhaps he's losing faith in Clouston.
Hey, I hear ya.

This could be nothing, but then again maybe it's not.
When I watch this team, I see a team that's trying to do what the coach wants even though the players don't really beleive in the system. I don't think it's that the players just want to do it their way, it's that Clouston system is forcing them to play in ways they aren't good at, and they aren't getting the results as a function of that, and now they are frustrated and the coach just keeps plowing ahead.

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Old
11-30-2010, 07:12 AM
  #230
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it's not about Clouston or Murray ...

Spezza isn't producing like he's supposed to... Not blaming him.

We just lack quality Offensive players that aren't 38 years old.
We need pure talent and less Grinders.

Look at the big teams. They all have Quality Scoring forwards. At bunches. Their top 6 are all skilled. Unlike ours

only skilled players we have are Kovy (38) and Spezza (who's a Lecavalier type player)...
Alfie never undressed anyone on the ice (maybe his wife, but thats between them ) haha
He uses his head and high Hockey IQ to play the game. He doesn't have pure skill.

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11-30-2010, 07:53 AM
  #231
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I tend to agree with Alfie's perspective, taking 5 straight penalties definitely took the momentum away, also if he scores on the break away, game over.

The people that want Murray fired, exactly what will that change in the near term?? How many trades are being made in the league, basically none.

While this group is definitely underachieving, exactly whose job is it to get these players on track??

If Murray has a problem it is that he waiting too long to pull the trigger, like he did with Paddock and Hartsburg. Anyone one with eyes can see this team just isn't ready to play, and Clouston isn't showing he has the ability to turn it around.

Damn, last night with the Sens trailing by one, he has one forechecker and four guys clogging up the neutral zone (the trap), what the hell is he thinking???

If any of you think these players want to lose or are coach killers, you need to think again.

Many of you love to use Philly as an example of what can be done, well Philly fired Stevens, a good young coach on a veteran team that just wasn't performing. Were those players coach killers or was it a coach that just lacked the experience to fix it?? Seems to me that coaching change turned it around.

Clouston is a very hard worker, but has mishandled his players, can't settle on any line combinations, and worst of all, refuses to acknowledge his system isn't working with this group of players.

Clouston has lost this team and needs to go, the fact that this has happened is not the GMs fault, it is only the GMs fault if he doesn't fix it.

The Sens need a veteran coach, the Clouston experiment had its moment, now it needs to be ended.

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11-30-2010, 07:56 AM
  #232
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Firing Murray doesn't fix this team in the immediate short term, but that's not what it's about. It's about starting the process of fixing the team long term now. If things don't magically turn around soon, we need to use this trade deadline to start that process, and I don't want Murray making those deals.

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11-30-2010, 08:09 AM
  #233
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My advice to Melnyk would be to wait til January. If the team isn't in a playoff position by then, or isn't showing drastic signs of improvement, Murray should be fired and a new GM brought in. That should be enough time to evaluate the players and make deals before the Feb 28 trade deadline.

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11-30-2010, 08:16 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
Because the reporters in the scrum said it was a loud disagreement beween captain and coach. I've listened to the interview and although it doesn't seem that bad, I think you have to read between the lines a little bit.
Alfie never does stuff like that, and I'm not saying I'm %100, that their is a huge rift here, but I also think there is some evidence to it too.
This team looks alot like the team under hartsburg.
We know that more than one player has said things about the coaching.
Alfie never does this kind of thing, so the reporters would also know if he's saying something without saying something.

Of course the reporters could be full of **** too.
What's the link to the interview?

edit: If CC is going to be fired, then I think/want Murray to coach out the season. He has had past success with some of these players and if Melynk has any plans to clean house then let a new GM pick a coach. I said it last year that Yzerman should have been brought onboard.

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11-30-2010, 08:34 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by MatthewT View Post
What's the link to the interview?

edit: If CC is going to be fired, then I think/want Murray to coach out the season. He has had past success with some of these players and if Melynk has any plans to clean house then let a new GM pick a coach. I said it last year that Yzerman should have been brought onboard.
http://senators.nhl.com/v2/ext/Audio...dsson_post.mp3

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Old
11-30-2010, 08:35 AM
  #236
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I know this doesnít start off right (no source) but from what Iíve been told from an extended member of the Murray family, Melnyk is very involved in the day-to-day operations of the team and dictates a lot of what goes on. Murray's hands are tied.

That said, I do believe that it's time to start moving out bodies. Some of the players are way too comfortable here and we need to bring in young people who will give it their all night in and night out. I used to think it was the coaches but now I'm starting to thinking that it may not be the only issue.

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11-30-2010, 09:07 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Foamy View Post
My advice to Melnyk would be to wait til January. If the team isn't in a playoff position by then, or isn't showing drastic signs of improvement, Murray should be fired and a new GM brought in. That should be enough time to evaluate the players and make deals before the Feb 28 trade deadline.
Makes sense

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11-30-2010, 09:09 AM
  #238
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I had stated Clouston needed to go about 5-6 games ago when we were getting blown out.

It isn't Murray's fault that players like Foligno and Regin have regressed. It isn't Murray's fault that Michalek hasn't lived up to his 25-30 goal potential yet. Murray also doesn't play musical chairs with his goalies. I think the Gonchar signing is a good one.

Clouston is the one who makes the strategies and the player combos on this team and the players look lost and confused out there. It is depressing to watch right now, I haven't seen a game more boring from the Sens in years. They technically didn't even score a goal last night, Smid did that for them.

They almost got shutout by the Oilers. By Martin Gerber.

That is a joke at this point of the season and the fault entirely rests on Clouston's shoulders.

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11-30-2010, 09:11 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Clouston is a very hard worker, but has mishandled his players, can't settle on any line combinations, and worst of all, refuses to acknowledge his system isn't working with this group of players.

Clouston has lost this team and needs to go, the fact that this has happened is not the GMs fault, it is only the GMs fault if he doesn't fix it.

The Sens need a veteran coach, the Clouston experiment had its moment, now it needs to be ended.
Yeah, pretty much this. The people who think Murray is at fault for this debacle and firing him will fix this are seriously out to lunch.

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11-30-2010, 09:15 AM
  #240
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Murray built this team. He is just as much to blame as anyone. I'm not saying it's all him.

He should have known MM had knee issues and it could have been a problem.

Foligno has regressed, but he was never great to begin with.

Regin, well sophmore slump it seems, it happens.

If CC is such a bad coach, shouldn't he have seen his flaws before hiring him?

If he's to blame or not, doesn't matter. Fact is, this is HIS team, that HE built, and it's been garbage so far. We have not had one good consistent year since he became GM. How can he not take some of the blame? Sports is a results driven business, and he hasn't delivered. Time for a change.

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11-30-2010, 09:27 AM
  #241
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Sacriledge however.....I think maybe's its time to start over. Their are so many things wrong and it starts with Murray. For the life of me I can't understand why
a) He gave Alfredsson the deal he did. I like Alfie but he's now playing like a 38 year old and it's not enough for the money he is making.
b) Kovalev and Gonchar. Impossible to have any type of system with guys like that who play like they don't care half the time, notably in their own end.
c) did he give one way contracts to Brian Lee, Matt Carkner and Ryan Shannon. This team can't make any moves to the farm because they don't want to send one way contracts down. Lee doesn't belong in the NHL, and while I was happy Carkner get some security after a long journey in the AHL, the fact remains, he would likely play in the NHL for nothing!!
d) Not one significant draft pick since Spezza...and that was number 2 ...kind of hard to screw that one up. Karlsson may turn out to be something, but he's still got a lot to learn

I like Winchester and Kelly who play every night, every shift. Neil and Ruutu are finished. 73 good things have to happen in a row for those two to end up with a goal....and that isn't going to happen often. Regin, Foligno, Ruutu, Neil, and Shannon are all 4th line players, yet some of them are getting 2nd line minutes. Winchester is not a favourite of Clouston and sits most of the game....He needs to play more. Fisher is a shell of what he was last year, and Spezza gives you one game out of 5 when the opposition takes a night off. Kuba can't keep up. This team is lucky that they have won as many games as they have. Elliott/Leclaire have been the lone bright area. Firing Clouston solves nothing, but I don't like the way he's handled his lineup.

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Old
11-30-2010, 09:48 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by robemcdo View Post
Sacriledge however.....I think maybe's its time to start over. Their are so many things wrong and it starts with Murray. For the life of me I can't understand why
a) He gave Alfredsson the deal he did. I like Alfie but he's now playing like a 38 year old and it's not enough for the money he is making.
b) Kovalev and Gonchar. Impossible to have any type of system with guys like that who play like they don't care half the time, notably in their own end.
c) did he give one way contracts to Brian Lee, Matt Carkner and Ryan Shannon. This team can't make any moves to the farm because they don't want to send one way contracts down. Lee doesn't belong in the NHL, and while I was happy Carkner get some security after a long journey in the AHL, the fact remains, he would likely play in the NHL for nothing!!
d) Not one significant draft pick since Spezza...and that was number 2 ...kind of hard to screw that one up. Karlsson may turn out to be something, but he's still got a lot to learn

I like Winchester and Kelly who play every night, every shift. Neil and Ruutu are finished. 73 good things have to happen in a row for those two to end up with a goal....and that isn't going to happen often. Regin, Foligno, Ruutu, Neil, and Shannon are all 4th line players, yet some of them are getting 2nd line minutes. Winchester is not a favourite of Clouston and sits most of the game....He needs to play more. Fisher is a shell of what he was last year, and Spezza gives you one game out of 5 when the opposition takes a night off. Kuba can't keep up. This team is lucky that they have won as many games as they have. Elliott/Leclaire have been the lone bright area. Firing Clouston solves nothing, but I don't like the way he's handled his lineup.
Yes, he signed Lee to a one-way deal this summer. In the intermission of the Pens and Sens game on Friday, Murray said "We signed him to a one-way deal cause Lee wanted a one-way deal" which is a weird comment to make. Does he just give in to the players and agents demands? We're in this mess in part because of Murray. I'm not convinced the coaching staff is entirely at fault here. Murray and the players themselves have to be accountable.

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11-30-2010, 09:49 AM
  #243
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Can we start a petition to Eugene to blow it up? Seriously. Someone in Ottawa - make one, and get it to the press - ******* Garrioch will get a news boner over it.

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11-30-2010, 09:50 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by robemcdo View Post
Sacriledge however.....I think maybe's its time to start over. Their are so many things wrong and it starts with Murray. For the life of me I can't understand why
a) He gave Alfredsson the deal he did. I like Alfie but he's now playing like a 38 year old and it's not enough for the money he is making.
b) Kovalev and Gonchar. Impossible to have any type of system with guys like that who play like they don't care half the time, notably in their own end.
c) did he give one way contracts to Brian Lee, Matt Carkner and Ryan Shannon. This team can't make any moves to the farm because they don't want to send one way contracts down. Lee doesn't belong in the NHL, and while I was happy Carkner get some security after a long journey in the AHL, the fact remains, he would likely play in the NHL for nothing!!
d) Not one significant draft pick since Spezza...and that was number 2 ...kind of hard to screw that one up. Karlsson may turn out to be something, but he's still got a lot to learn

I like Winchester and Kelly who play every night, every shift. Neil and Ruutu are finished. 73 good things have to happen in a row for those two to end up with a goal....and that isn't going to happen often. Regin, Foligno, Ruutu, Neil, and Shannon are all 4th line players, yet some of them are getting 2nd line minutes. Winchester is not a favourite of Clouston and sits most of the game....He needs to play more. Fisher is a shell of what he was last year, and Spezza gives you one game out of 5 when the opposition takes a night off. Kuba can't keep up. This team is lucky that they have won as many games as they have. Elliott/Leclaire have been the lone bright area. Firing Clouston solves nothing, but I don't like the way he's handled his lineup.
alfies cap hit is 4.875. Whats wrong with that?

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11-30-2010, 10:38 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by robemcdo View Post
Sacriledge however.....I think maybe's its time to start over. Their are so many things wrong and it starts with Murray. For the life of me I can't understand why
a) He gave Alfredsson the deal he did. I like Alfie but he's now playing like a 38 year old and it's not enough for the money he is making.
b) Kovalev and Gonchar. Impossible to have any type of system with guys like that who play like they don't care half the time, notably in their own end.
c) did he give one way contracts to Brian Lee, Matt Carkner and Ryan Shannon. This team can't make any moves to the farm because they don't want to send one way contracts down. Lee doesn't belong in the NHL, and while I was happy Carkner get some security after a long journey in the AHL, the fact remains, he would likely play in the NHL for nothing!!
d) Not one significant draft pick since Spezza...and that was number 2 ...kind of hard to screw that one up. Karlsson may turn out to be something, but he's still got a lot to learn

I like Winchester and Kelly who play every night, every shift. Neil and Ruutu are finished. 73 good things have to happen in a row for those two to end up with a goal....and that isn't going to happen often. Regin, Foligno, Ruutu, Neil, and Shannon are all 4th line players, yet some of them are getting 2nd line minutes. Winchester is not a favourite of Clouston and sits most of the game....He needs to play more. Fisher is a shell of what he was last year, and Spezza gives you one game out of 5 when the opposition takes a night off. Kuba can't keep up. This team is lucky that they have won as many games as they have. Elliott/Leclaire have been the lone bright area. Firing Clouston solves nothing, but I don't like the way he's handled his lineup.
1. Alfredsson's deal is fine. This is the 1st season he has started to show his age a bit and he is STILL leading the team in points. For 4.2 mill, I think that's worth it up to this point. Even more so that technically Alfie could retire next season and that cap hit is gone.

2. Kovalev hasn't been great but so far this season he has been pretty good. He was signed more for his clutch playoff play too but he was injured last season. Gonchar you are entirely wrong on, he is still one of the best offensive d-men in the NHL and he does care about winning. He hasnt been the same since the Ovechkin hit defensivley though and it shows.

3. Murray didnt want to lose Lee for nothing he thought there was still potential for him and signed him to the one-way - hardly a reason for our current state of affairs. Carkner is pretty good defensively and belongs in the NHL in a 5/6 role like he currently is. Shannon I could take it or leave it but still isn't the main reason we are where we are at.

4. It's kinda hard to have a significant draft pick when you are consistently picking between 14-29 most years. We had a #9 pick with Cowen, that's the highest pick since Spezza I believe. You pick the best player available in most cases and hope it works out. Welcome to every other NHL team in the same boat as the Sens in this case.

In short, your post is full of inaccuracies.

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11-30-2010, 11:22 AM
  #246
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Well he should just send him to Bingo, at least let the kid play - you're paying him to sit in the press box anyway. What does it matter if someone picks him off waivers, you'd only get a 5th or lower for him.
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Hell No!!
Unlucky ;-).

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11-30-2010, 11:28 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by robemcdo View Post
Sacriledge however.....I think maybe's its time to start over. Their are so many things wrong and it starts with Murray. For the life of me I can't understand why
a) He gave Alfredsson the deal he did. I like Alfie but he's now playing like a 38 year old and it's not enough for the money he is making.
b) Kovalev and Gonchar. Impossible to have any type of system with guys like that who play like they don't care half the time, notably in their own end.
c) did he give one way contracts to Brian Lee, Matt Carkner and Ryan Shannon. This team can't make any moves to the farm because they don't want to send one way contracts down. Lee doesn't belong in the NHL, and while I was happy Carkner get some security after a long journey in the AHL, the fact remains, he would likely play in the NHL for nothing!!
d) Not one significant draft pick since Spezza...and that was number 2 ...kind of hard to screw that one up. Karlsson may turn out to be something, but he's still got a lot to learn

I like Winchester and Kelly who play every night, every shift. Neil and Ruutu are finished. 73 good things have to happen in a row for those two to end up with a goal....and that isn't going to happen often. Regin, Foligno, Ruutu, Neil, and Shannon are all 4th line players, yet some of them are getting 2nd line minutes. Winchester is not a favourite of Clouston and sits most of the game....He needs to play more. Fisher is a shell of what he was last year, and Spezza gives you one game out of 5 when the opposition takes a night off. Kuba can't keep up. This team is lucky that they have won as many games as they have. Elliott/Leclaire have been the lone bright area. Firing Clouston solves nothing, but I don't like the way he's handled his lineup.
Not sure there is anything wrong with Alfie's deal, or with Alfie. However if you have an issue you had better take it up with the owner, I think that decision like the Kovalev signing has his fingerprints all over it.

Gonchar is a good signing, just play him within a reasonable system and in his natural position on the PP.

One way contracts at those prices aren't the problem with the Sens.

Well given the Sens highest pick since Murray was Cowan, not sure what you are saying here. Time is what is required for the Murray picks to develop, only time will tell.

I don't agree Shannon or Foligno are 4TH line players, they don't have the size or physical presence to be 4TH liners.

Every player on the team didn't regress or suddenly forget how to play. While injuries may have slowed a few, it doesn't explain what we have been seeing many games. There is something systemic, I do believe it is Clouston.

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11-30-2010, 11:37 AM
  #248
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I had stated Clouston needed to go about 5-6 games ago when we were getting blown out.

It isn't Murray's fault that players like Foligno and Regin have regressed. It isn't Murray's fault that Michalek hasn't lived up to his 25-30 goal potential yet. Murray also doesn't play musical chairs with his goalies. I think the Gonchar signing is a good one.

Clouston is the one who makes the strategies and the player combos on this team and the players look lost and confused out there. It is depressing to watch right now, I haven't seen a game more boring from the Sens in years. They technically didn't even score a goal last night, Smid did that for them.

They almost got shutout by the Oilers. By Martin Gerber.

That is a joke at this point of the season and the fault entirely rests on Clouston's shoulders.
But Murray hired Clouston, no? So isn't that Murray's fault if Clouston is such a bad coach? And Paddock? And Fartsburg?

And I'd be shocked if any coach hired could get a good offense out of our forward crop. Buffalo has 62 GF, we have 58, I consider our forward crop about as good as Buffalo's.

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Old
11-30-2010, 11:51 AM
  #249
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Quote:
"Every player on the team didn't regress or suddenly forget how to play. While injuries may have slowed a few, it doesn't explain what we have been seeing many games. There is something systemic, I do believe it is Clouston"
As far as Clouston....It seems that he is not willing to sit players when they are not playing well, unless they are the 4th liners or the 5/6 defencemen. When you have indisciplined players like Karlsson, Kovalev, Spezza, pretty much doing what they want out there, and aside from EK's little visit to the pressbox, there is never any consequence. Kovalev is a cancer on this team. His indifference loses games and it undermines the coach who demands effort from the rest of his team. Again, it's been mentioned that Kovalev's presence is the work of Murray or Melnyk, but it will be Clouston's head that will roll next. I have a slight connection on the inside on this team, and it is not a happy group. Not hard to figure out why.

The man for this team unfortunately got laid to rest yesterday.

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11-30-2010, 11:54 AM
  #250
Doig
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After this season I feel it would be the best time to do this.

We'd be gaining a lot of cap space and I'd rather have another GM making the off season moves than Murray.

Not sure about Clouston though.

oh yeah, and there wouldn't be anymore Fire Murray Threads

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