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Bogosian to the Habs

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Old
11-26-2010, 10:23 AM
  #26
Bill Ladd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Bogosian to MTL would work great for the Habs because Zach would be close to home and perform much better. He's young and I think a bit homesick. He had his brother come down to ATL to train with him all summer when he wasn't in New York. He also has had issues feeling ill flying, so being in the NE might be great for him where he wouldn't have to fly for every game.

So, MTL has to really over-pay, because I think he'll blossom as a Hab.
Not quite following how Bogosian would feel "at home" in Montreal. I know it's not all that far geographically, but I'd think that for an American, French-speaking Canada would be a pretty big cultural difference.

Not that I'm impartial.

I'm actually hoping Boston gets in on this. He did a year of school here and Ray Bourque worked with him a lot that year (because his sons were at the same school).

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11-26-2010, 10:40 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by karzanPalani View Post
This's more realistic IMO Eller+ Kristo,+Leblanc+1st+2nd, pairing Subban with Bogosian would be pretty sick.
It would be all out offense yes, but would end the year with a grand total of -123 each

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11-26-2010, 10:43 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by alpine4life View Post
It would be all out offense yes, but would end the year with a grand total of -123 each
Subban is very good defensively. Try watching some Montreal games maybe.

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Old
11-26-2010, 10:43 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Tinordi, Pacioretty and a 1st is stealing Bogosian?

Uh, ok. I'll keep in mind 2 top prospects and a 1st are not worth a promising, young defenseman that also isn't anywhere near elite level and struggling to fill a key player role.

Ah, we're going with the "ignoring future potential" tactic. In that case, you're trading a guy who's proven absolutely nothing in the pros and a guy who's done little or nothing in the NHL for a guy who's at least currently an NHL defenseman.

If I wanted to be really mean, I could compare Tinordi to, say, Valabik... but I like Team USA too much to commit such blasphemy.

It's essentially a quantity-for-quality proposal, and those tend not to go over well. Especially since Atlanta isn't exactly shopping Bogo around. (If they were, my fanbase's proposals earlier of a Filatov for Bogosian trade might actually go somewhere.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If Markov was healthy Enstrom wouldn't be a number #1 guy in Montreal, in fact I'm not sure where he would even play. He's better than a couple of guys we have but he isn't a fit at all unless we traded Markov away too and that makes no sense at all.

Evander Kane would fill a need on our team if you're looking for ways to help us.
So, by this logic, Ryan Suter isn't a #1 guy because of Weber, Brent Seabrook can't ever claim to be a #1 anywhere thanks to Keith, Jay Bouwmeester lost his #1 status for all time due to that brief time when he was on the same team with Phaneuf, and Chris Pronger wasn't a #1 guy because he was behind Neidermayer in Anaheim. Right?

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11-26-2010, 10:45 AM
  #30
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Think the Habs might want Kane and Enstrom while we're at it? We'll throw in Little and Burmistrov to make it happen....

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Old
11-26-2010, 10:53 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by alpine4life View Post
It would be all out offense yes, but would end the year with a grand total of -123 each
Subban is amazing defensively for a rookie. Don't get me wrong he's no Pronger but he's good defensively and uses his speed very well. I've seen plays happen that for years of watching the habs would have been near most guaranteed goals, Subban reigned destruction on those plays. The guy is good positionally and fast, he stops 2 on 1 chances by himself. I wouldn't got as far as to say they'd be a big minus. Maybe -5 to -6 but even then maybe +5 to +6.

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Think the Habs might want Kane and Enstrom while we're at it? We'll throw in Little and Burmistrov to make it happen....
To be honest there are three players specifically I'd love for the habs to have:

Byfuglien
Ladd
Kane

Mean no disrespect to the rest of the team or Bogosian though, I'm think from a stand point of who add a piece to our puzzle though.

I think Atlanta is a great team this year and frankly I think a big part of the reason is landing Ladd and Byfuglien. I'd be similarly happy with my team if it were Atlanta. Atlanta is on it's way up, let's just hope the fan base grows as the team becomes better. I really like what I've seen from Atlanta this year all though in limited replays etc. They're a solid team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
So, by this logic, Ryan Suter isn't a #1 guy because of Weber, Brent Seabrook can't ever claim to be a #1 anywhere thanks to Keith, Jay Bouwmeester lost his #1 status for all time due to that brief time when he was on the same team with Phaneuf, and Chris Pronger wasn't a #1 guy because he was behind Neidermayer in Anaheim. Right?
Exactly. They became #2 defenseman and from that day forth were never considered in the slightest as #1's again.

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Old
11-26-2010, 10:53 AM
  #32
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Do the Canadiens really need a guy like Bogosian, after all they have Subbsy

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Old
11-26-2010, 11:57 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by GoodKiwi View Post
Subban is very good defensively. Try watching some Montreal games maybe.
I watch MTL games yes, Subban takes risk and often will get caught. On the oppisite I dont really watch any ATL games, even if I have NHL online (or whatever its called)

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Old
11-26-2010, 11:57 AM
  #34
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It's very tough to determine Bogo's worth in a trade because he's a young guy with enormous potential but has been less than remarkable for most of his short-career.

He's got all of the physical tools and capabilities to be a Dion Phaneuf type player but mentally he is not quite there.

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Old
11-26-2010, 12:49 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
So, by this logic, Ryan Suter isn't a #1 guy because of Weber, Brent Seabrook can't ever claim to be a #1 anywhere thanks to Keith, Jay Bouwmeester lost his #1 status for all time due to that brief time when he was on the same team with Phaneuf, and Chris Pronger wasn't a #1 guy because he was behind Neidermayer in Anaheim. Right?
If Markov was healthy he'd be our #1, imo. Markov would get the most PP time and he'd be pairing the top d pairing.

Rather than get all ratcheted up, maybe you should actually reread my post. I made the comment that it wouldn't make sense to get Enstrom unless we were going to trade Markov (because that would be the best spot for Enstrom).

We have 6 left handed shooting d-men in our line-up already (Markov, Hamrlik, Spacek, Gorges, Gill and Picard) and one right handed d-man (Subban) and right-handed Weber in the press box. That is what I was alluding to when I questioned where he would fit in.

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Old
11-26-2010, 12:53 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Ah, we're going with the "ignoring future potential" tactic. In that case, you're trading a guy who's proven absolutely nothing in the pros and a guy who's done little or nothing in the NHL for a guy who's at least currently an NHL defenseman.
I bolded the two problems with your quote.

1--Tinordi and Pacioretty have "future potential", as well. So does a 1st round pick. So, while Bogosian has been average at the NHL level, at best, I match his "future potential" with that of the 3 1st rounders that were offered. Personally, we need a Tinordi type far more than we need a Bogosian type, so I would never want to see us make that deal.

2--Jeff Finger is an NHL defenceman, as are many others whom I would never want on my team. I am not equating Bogosian with Finger, but your statement that at least Bogosian is an NHL defenceman is meaningless when determining value in a trade if you do not qualify the type of NHL defenceman he is. Also, there are very few NHL defencemen worth the equivalent of 3 1st round picks, and Bogosian is not one of them, yet. Nor is Subban, before anyone gets silly.

I like Bogosian, and could see a fit for him in Montreal, but not in exchange for 3 1st rounders. If 3 1st rounders are necessary for Bogosian, Atlanta can keep him, or extract Filatov and 2 1sts from Columbus with my blessings. Somehow, I think the Blue Jackets management team is smarter than the fans hinting at such an offer.

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Old
11-26-2010, 01:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
If Markov was healthy he'd be our #1, imo. Markov would get the most PP time and he'd be pairing the top d pairing.

Rather than get all ratcheted up, maybe you should actually reread my post. I made the comment that it wouldn't make sense to get Enstrom unless we were going to trade Markov (because that would be the best spot for Enstrom).

We have 6 left handed shooting d-men in our line-up already (Markov, Hamrlik, Spacek, Gorges, Gill and Picard) and one right handed d-man (Subban) and right-handed Weber in the press box. That is what I was alluding to when I questioned where he would fit in.
Well simply put he's a lot better than the rest of them (Sans Markov) so Habs would try and find a home for one of the others (Probably Hamrlik or Spacek which could be difficult but not impossible.

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Old
11-26-2010, 01:10 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by alpine4life View Post
I watch MTL games yes, Subban takes risk and often will get caught. On the oppisite I dont really watch any ATL games, even if I have NHL online (or whatever its called)
You mean OHL live?

He's come a long way since juniors, and doesn't make risky plays anymore, or whatever they are called.

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Old
11-26-2010, 01:16 PM
  #39
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Once I thought this guy was untouchable but his seeming potential has just hit a wall. I don't know what I would want for him but I no longer see him as untouchable as he hasn't lived up to his billing so far. Has been injured no doubt that plays a factor but I would probably give him up if Montreal or another club offered us some young offensive player/s and/or a nice pick.

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Old
11-26-2010, 01:43 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Johnny8242 View Post
Once I thought this guy was untouchable but his seeming potential has just hit a wall. I don't know what I would want for him but I no longer see him as untouchable as he hasn't lived up to his billing so far. Has been injured no doubt that plays a factor but I would probably give him up if Montreal or another club offered us some young offensive player/s and/or a nice pick.
What positions of need do you have? I like to make informed offers. I think Bogosian still has a lot of upside, so I could see a fair offer including a top prospect and high pick, but I would need to know what positions you are looking for.

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Old
11-26-2010, 02:00 PM
  #41
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From Montreal I would think it would take:

Benoit Pouliot
Louis Leblanc
Jarred Tinordi


I would throw in an offer from Boston:

Tor 1st 2011
Blake Wheeler
Andrew Ference
Jared Knight

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Old
11-26-2010, 02:13 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
From Montreal I would think it would take:

Benoit Pouliot
Louis Leblanc
Jarred Tinordi


I would throw in an offer from Boston:

Tor 1st 2011
Blake Wheeler
Andrew Ference
Jared Knight
How are those two deals even REMOTELY COMPARABLE?

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Old
11-26-2010, 02:16 PM
  #43
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Well simply put he's a lot better than the rest of them (Sans Markov) so Habs would try and find a home for one of the others (Probably Hamrlik or Spacek which could be difficult but not impossible.
That's the problem, you to move a bunch of guys, take some bad contracts in return, disrupt team chemistry and at best it's a lateral move.

If Markov isn't able to fully recover from his injuries or chooses to sign elsewhere then I would be open to making a trade like that but for now, no.

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Old
11-26-2010, 02:19 PM
  #44
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there are very few players on the habs that fit into rick dudley's team vision, which is a bunch of big bruising power-forwards and speedy 2-way tryhards.


Aside from Subban we can't take on more defensemen because we have 8-12 trying to get on the lines at any time and we'll have another three coming in from junior/NCAA in the upcoming season.

Aside from prospects, unless they're ridiculously bluechip, we aren't going to take them for roster players. The idea right now is that we're not sellers and still looking to make the playoffs, so we want players that can step up now or are upgrades over our top six (which doesn't mean much since we roll four lines and spread out our players along them).

Maybe we can work something around Cammalleri or something but I'd look at some other teams before the Habs, no offense.

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11-26-2010, 02:31 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
there are very few players on the habs that fit into rick dudley's team vision, which is a bunch of big bruising power-forwards and speedy 2-way tryhards.


Aside from Subban we can't take on more defensemen because we have 8-12 trying to get on the lines at any time and we'll have another three coming in from junior/NCAA in the upcoming season.

Aside from prospects, unless they're ridiculously bluechip, we aren't going to take them for roster players. The idea right now is that we're not sellers and still looking to make the playoffs, so we want players that can step up now or are upgrades over our top six (which doesn't mean much since we roll four lines and spread out our players along them).

Maybe we can work something around Cammalleri or something but I'd look at some other teams before the Habs, no offense.
Not to be rude, but the speedy 2-way diehards is the habs roster, and frankly we do a better job of piling them up then you do.

As much as I love bogo I don't think anyones gonna come to a conclusion this place

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Old
11-26-2010, 03:04 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
From Montreal I would think it would take:

Benoit Pouliot
Louis Leblanc
Jarred Tinordi


I would throw in an offer from Boston:

Tor 1st 2011
Blake Wheeler
Andrew Ference
Jared Knight
Montreal says "no". A good LW, our #1 center prospect AND our #1 d-man prospect for Bogosian is not helping our team. We need a Tinordi type far more than a Bogosian type, which we have in a guy named Subban who might end up being better than Bogosian.

The Boston offer should get it done from Atlanta's perspective when you consider the Tor 1st will be top 5 with a shot at #1 overall. I don't think Boston would do it, but if they would, Atlanta should grab it and run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headsigh View Post
there are very few players on the habs that fit into rick dudley's team vision, which is a bunch of big bruising power-forwards and speedy 2-way tryhards.


Aside from Subban we can't take on more defensemen because we have 8-12 trying to get on the lines at any time and we'll have another three coming in from junior/NCAA in the upcoming season.

Aside from prospects, unless they're ridiculously bluechip, we aren't going to take them for roster players. The idea right now is that we're not sellers and still looking to make the playoffs, so we want players that can step up now or are upgrades over our top six (which doesn't mean much since we roll four lines and spread out our players along them).

Maybe we can work something around Cammalleri or something but I'd look at some other teams before the Habs, no offense.
Bogosian for Cammalleri? You would have to add one heck of a package around Bogosian to have any hope in heck of getting THAT done. Actually, you can look elsewhere if Cammy is what you need to get Bogosian.

As far as giving a bluechip prospect goes, I have no problem including one and a pick for Bogosian, but people here are asking for multiple blue chippers for Bogosian who has not exactly lit up the league in his 3 seasons, so far. If anything, he has regressed each season, and has still not figured out that defecemen should actually play defence. A third year defenceman with 1 goal and 2 assists in 16 games does not get multiple blue chip prospects AND picks.

Finally, there is no reason to trade Subban for Bogosian. It is a lateral move, at best, which is foolish. The only reason we do such a lateral move is if Subban, 2 years from now, has regressed and Bogosian has not progressed, and both teams think a change of scenery will kick start both players (i.e: like the Latendresse for Pouliot trade).

So, at this point, if a Pacioretty and a 1st type of deal will not be enough for Bogosian, then there is no real deal to be made.

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Old
11-26-2010, 03:17 PM
  #47
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No point of Atlanta trading Bogosian unless it's something big for their team.

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11-26-2010, 03:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't really see the point in any of this for Montreal. Bogosian is a pretty good D right now, but the big value in him is his upside to be a longterm hard rock stud. Ok, that's wonderful. BUT! The Habs don't really need a defenseman right now. The team isn't rebuilding. Every team in the league would love to have Bogosian, but he's not a need for the Habs right now. And again, where the Habs have an actual need is in terms of scoring forwards. So there's really no point in offering one of our best of those (Kostitsyn) and one who we hope projects into being one of those (Eller) for something we don't need. However shiny it is.

Bogosian is just a fantasy. There's no practical need or desire to get him in Montreal.
Hockey lingo taken too far

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Old
11-26-2010, 05:13 PM
  #49
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Kostitsyn
Tinordi
1st

Don't see the point for Atlanta, though. They don't have much top-end talent on D as it is, and they have solid depth at forward and a ton of prospects.
Done, although I would imagine Atlanta would desire Weber in a trade. Either way I would take this easily even if it weakens us on the forward side. Despite my dislike of Kostitsyn, I would possibility entertain Eller over him, and do the trade in a heartbeat if it was Eller, Tinordi and a second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karzanPalani View Post
This's more realistic IMO Eller+ Kristo,+Leblanc+1st+2nd, pairing Subban with Bogosian would be pretty sick.
Since when did Bogosian become Chris Pronger? You get this...


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Old
11-26-2010, 05:20 PM
  #50
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Ah, we're going with the "ignoring future potential" tactic. In that case, you're trading a guy who's proven absolutely nothing in the pros and a guy who's done little or nothing in the NHL for a guy who's at least currently an NHL defenseman.

If I wanted to be really mean, I could compare Tinordi to, say, Valabik... but I like Team USA too much to commit such blasphemy.

It's essentially a quantity-for-quality proposal, and those tend not to go over well. Especially since Atlanta isn't exactly shopping Bogo around. (If they were, my fanbase's proposals earlier of a Filatov for Bogosian trade might actually go somewhere.)
Wait, wait, wait. What has Bogosian done in the NHL? A solid 50ish game rookie season? OH wow, my mistake. Bobby Orr is going to Montreal for nobodies. Terrible deal.

So what he made the NHL? Didn't that team get Evander Kane the draft following his rookie season? You telling me lottery pick teams have a hard lineup to crack? Mind you, it's a lottery team with a 50-goal scorer. Goes to show what great quality that lineup has.

Now, the fact Bogosian, who is given a bright future when in fact he could be a solid 1st pairing guy (which he is nowhere near being at the moment), is being stolen when the team gets a blue chip D prospect, a potential top 6 forward and a 1st rounder is mind-boggling.

You could argue the trade value isn't that great, they could get better or even they wouldn't pull that trade because of what Bogosian means to them, but to say it's a steal? Nah, that's ridiculous and something that Habs fans are fairly accustomed to. Constant flaming of their prospects (and their players).

Might want to choose your words carefully next time.

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