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teach fighting early

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06-15-2004, 11:02 AM
  #1
Istvan
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teach fighting early

Since the majority of posters seem to believe that fighting is a part of the game why not remove all the ambiguity and teach fighting the same way we teach passing, shooting and other parts of the game. Maybe start at the peewee level so that kids can learn all the basics fairly early before they move to the next level?

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06-15-2004, 11:11 AM
  #2
deandebean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
Since the majority of posters seem to believe that fighting is a part of the game why not remove all the ambiguity and teach fighting the same way we teach passing, shooting and other parts of the game. Maybe start at the peewee level so that kids can learn all the basics fairly early before they move to the next level?

Well, I don't think so. Fighting is not an intricate part of hockey. It's left to the fringe and tough players.

What they should encourage, though, in this province, is teaching the hitting part earlier. My son is going to a hockey summer camp in Ottawa, where they teach him the art of giving a body check (no charging or anything, but at least learning how to play the body). He's 9 years old and a pretty big fella. In Masson-Angers, PQ, where he plays his minor hockey, they teach him to play the puck as a defenceman. Big no-no, IMHO.

I can tell you that he loves it like crazy. Not because it's physical, but because he finally learns what I've been telling him since his MAHG days. He yearns for the friday evenings like you wouldn't believe. His last-year coach at the Novice A level is at the camp and believes also that he will become a much better defenceman because of it.

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06-15-2004, 11:21 AM
  #3
Bruin_Ron
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Kids can't distinguish between what's allowed on the ice and in "real life". Kids are tought that hitting and fighting are wrong. To tell a kid once he's on the ice that hitting and fighting are all of a sudden ok, you risk confusing this child. Result? He/She will be violent with his/her friends and have trouble figuring out why he ENCOURAGED to fight and hit on the ice and then PUNISHED for the same actions in the playground.

I work with kids alot, from ages 1 and up... no way can young ones seperate the two.

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06-15-2004, 11:36 AM
  #4
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Add to these few arguments against the fact that you'll scare a lot of small kids away from hockey.

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06-15-2004, 12:04 PM
  #5
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
Since the majority of posters seem to believe that fighting is a part of the game why not remove all the ambiguity and teach fighting the same way we teach passing, shooting and other parts of the game. Maybe start at the peewee level so that kids can learn all the basics fairly early before they move to the next level?
Why not teach tripping, cross-checking, and slashing too? While these are all "a part of the game" in the sense that fighting is, they are also discouraged and penalised by the rules. And yet, at times, they do all still happen.

At any rate, some players *do* learn how to commit infractions if they reach a competitive enough level (or how to get away with them), and some kids do take boxing lessons or martial arts to help hone their skills and strength for hockey.

I think it all depends on how they are taught. If you just throw a bunch of kids on the ice and a bozo coach starts yelling at them to "fight, fight, kill 'em", etc, then that isn't going to work. But I wouldn't want to underestimate kids in general... I think they *can* discriminate between appropriate and inappropiate times to display various forms of behaviour. (Remember, we're talking about peewee age kids and above here). It may not be practically possible in a typical modern Western family environment to give them the necessary guiding and nurturing to reach that state, but there's no reason in theory that they couldn't. Various cultures in the past have trained children in the martial arts, or in hunting, inherently violent activities, and in fact, sometimes that instills even more discipline and discrimination as to how they behave in their other activities and in later life.

The big controversy right now in minor hockey is more about bodychecking, an activity which *IS* allowed in later years in competitive hockey, and is not an infraction of the rules like fighting is.

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06-15-2004, 12:35 PM
  #6
rocketlives
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
Well, I don't think so. Fighting is not an intricate part of hockey. It's left to the fringe and tough players.

What they should encourage, though, in this province, is teaching the hitting part earlier. My son is going to a hockey summer camp in Ottawa, where they teach him the art of giving a body check (no charging or anything, but at least learning how to play the body). He's 9 years old and a pretty big fella. In Masson-Angers, PQ, where he plays his minor hockey, they teach him to play the puck as a defenceman. Big no-no, IMHO.

I can tell you that he loves it like crazy. Not because it's physical, but because he finally learns what I've been telling him since his MAHG days. He yearns for the friday evenings like you wouldn't believe. His last-year coach at the Novice A level is at the camp and believes also that he will become a much better defenceman because of it.

I agree with you dean but sometimes fighting is a logical consequence of hitting. Without a Dave Semenko or a Marty McSorley patrolling on the ice or sitting on the bench with a watchful eye, Wayne Gretzky might have suffered his fair share of rib-cage and shoulder injuries and he might have found it a lot more difficult to rewrite the record book.

Fighting as a side show should be taken out of the game, but there should always be a few policemen on every team to keep the cheap-shot artists honest. And, everyone knows that, in the NHL, any bone-crushing check to a star player, even if it's a clean hit, will always call for some retribution and I have nothing against that.



Last edited by rocketlives: 06-15-2004 at 02:41 PM.
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06-15-2004, 08:58 PM
  #7
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For the most part, I believe most kids play hockey to have fun. I can't see my young fella wanting to rush to the rink at 5am to get punched in the mouth. Some kids are aggressive at a young age, but the hormones don't usually kick in until the teen years. Then, thats when your likely to see a few more scraps. I can't see two pee wee players dropping the gloves with Mom and Dad cheering happily from the stands. I think more kids would pass on hockey if something stupid like this ever happened, which it won't. Thankfully.

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06-15-2004, 11:09 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie
For the most part, I believe most kids play hockey to have fun. I can't see my young fella wanting to rush to the rink at 5am to get punched in the mouth. Some kids are aggressive at a young age, but the hormones don't usually kick in until the teen years. Then, thats when your likely to see a few more scraps. I can't see two pee wee players dropping the gloves with Mom and Dad cheering happily from the stands. I think more kids would pass on hockey if something stupid like this ever happened, which it won't. Thankfully.
Is two adults trying to punch each other in the face any less stupid?

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06-15-2004, 11:27 PM
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Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
Is two adults trying to punch each other in the face any less stupid?

And adults slashing and crosschecking and hitting players any less stupid?

I am just curious if you don't like fighting in hockey or violence in hockey in general?

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06-16-2004, 12:57 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
Is two adults trying to punch each other in the face any less stupid?
What are you trying to get at? Watching two guys punch each other in the helmet doesn't look too bright, but they are adults and have the chance to say "NO". Kids won't have this opportunity.

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06-16-2004, 01:11 AM
  #11
tml_4ever
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Yes, i think droping the gloves is part of the game, but i don't mean, "Well, everyone, it written in stone, so please go punch the heck out of anyone you find bothering you." what i'm trying to say is that 1 on 1 battles have been going on since the beginning of hockey and that sometimes you just have to fight that guy to get it through your system and put guys in their place.

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06-16-2004, 01:40 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
Since the majority of posters seem to believe that fighting is a part of the game why not remove all the ambiguity and teach fighting the same way we teach passing, shooting and other parts of the game. Maybe start at the peewee level so that kids can learn all the basics fairly early before they move to the next level?
It's not sane if you want to see kids fighting. Seek for help if you're not kidding.

I'm all for fights, but it has to be between strongly build human beings. Not kids.

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06-16-2004, 07:01 AM
  #13
mcphee
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I used to crouch behind my kids' cribs and cheapshot them when they'd stand up. Sure,they cried a lot and are very nervous now, but they seldom are caught unprepared . Sometimes you have to look at the big picture.

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06-16-2004, 08:01 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
I used to crouch behind my kids' cribs and cheapshot them when they'd stand up. Sure,they cried a lot and are very nervous now, but they seldom are caught unprepared . Sometimes you have to look at the big picture.
Exactly! It's a big ol' scary world out there, and I'm teaching my boy to take care of himself, with sword and with spell, and with fists if necessary. I'd rather see him drop the gloves and thrash those punk-Bruins goons than roll around on the ice like a sissy-Ribeiro.

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06-16-2004, 08:32 AM
  #15
mcphee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
Exactly! It's a big ol' scary world out there, and I'm teaching my boy to take care of himself, with sword and with spell, and with fists if necessary. I'd rather see him drop the gloves and thrash those punk-Bruins goons than roll around on the ice like a sissy-Ribeiro.
Yeah, so they cry and whimper when someone raises their hand in class, so they have nightmares, so bedwetting may be a permanent problem, they'll be tough damnit.

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06-16-2004, 10:21 AM
  #16
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Boohoo if you don't like fighting, I do!! Its good and it is fun. I say place little kids in a room and let them fight to the death gladiator style and then they will be ready for hockey. I can't wait for my first real hockey scrap *sniff*

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06-16-2004, 11:27 AM
  #17
Istvan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
And adults slashing and crosschecking and hitting players any less stupid?

I am just curious if you don't like fighting in hockey or violence in hockey in general?
I don't like violence in general. I admire toughness, mental and physical, and I admire courage. None of these attributes is synonymous with violence and fighting.

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06-16-2004, 11:37 AM
  #18
mcphee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
I don't like violence in general. I admire toughness, mental and physical, and I admire courage. None of these attributes is synonymous with violence and fighting.
Istvan, fighting has become a tough issue for me in hockey these days. If we were to sit around on my back deck getting hammered and talking hockey, we would get to "Who was the best fighter you ever saw ?' or 'what was the best fight ?' or 'do you remember the brawl back in 76' I can't really support what hockey fighting has become. I think it has outlived its' place in the game. The fighting as a release that rocketlives described, rarely occurs now. The Iginla/Lecavalier punchup in the finals was different becuase it was 'heat of the action'. Goons fighting goons, or coaches who send out tough guys with 3 seconds left, has become silly,if not dangerous. I'd welcome rules that would differentiate between planned WWE style fighting and incidental to the game occurrences. That would put a lot of judgement into the refs hands and I can't see it happening. Seems like my idea sits on the fence, but I am on the fence on the issue.

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06-16-2004, 11:40 AM
  #19
Istvan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax˛+bx+c
It's not sane if you want to see kids fighting. Seek for help if you're not kidding.

I'm all for fights, but it has to be between strongly build human beings. Not kids.
I was kidding but i'm pretty sure I could use some help. Sanity is a bit overrated anyway.

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06-16-2004, 11:44 AM
  #20
Istvan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
I used to crouch behind my kids' cribs and cheapshot them when they'd stand up. Sure,they cried a lot and are very nervous now, but they seldom are caught unprepared . Sometimes you have to look at the big picture.
Could you help me find the tongue-in-cheeck icon please? :lol

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06-16-2004, 11:46 AM
  #21
Istvan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie
What are you trying to get at? Watching two guys punch each other in the helmet doesn't look too bright, but they are adults and have the chance to say "NO". Kids won't have this opportunity.
Didn't the guy with the broken neck and smashed face say "NO"?

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06-16-2004, 12:01 PM
  #22
Istvan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Istvan, fighting has become a tough issue for me in hockey these days. If we were to sit around on my back deck getting hammered and talking hockey, we would get to "Who was the best fighter you ever saw ?' or 'what was the best fight ?' or 'do you remember the brawl back in 76' I can't really support what hockey fighting has become. I think it has outlived its' place in the game. The fighting as a release that rocketlives described, rarely occurs now. The Iginla/Lecavalier punchup in the finals was different becuase it was 'heat of the action'. Goons fighting goons, or coaches who send out tough guys with 3 seconds left, has become silly,if not dangerous. I'd welcome rules that would differentiate between planned WWE style fighting and incidental to the game occurrences. That would put a lot of judgement into the refs hands and I can't see it happening. Seems like my idea sits on the fence, but I am on the fence on the issue.
You know McPhee if you get hammered enough you'll fall off that fence. Let me know where you land. But, don't hurt yourself because,along with many on the board, I really enjoy your comments. Salut!

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06-16-2004, 12:37 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Istvan
I don't like violence in general. I admire toughness, mental and physical, and I admire courage. None of these attributes is synonymous with violence and fighting.

If you don't like violence in general, then hockey without fighting still wouldn't be the sport for you. Guys punching each other, guys hitting each other from behind, guys elbowing, crosschecking, and slashing each other are all forms of violence. So what you are saying is, some violence is acceptable and others aren't. Football and Rugby are inherently violent sports even without fighting. The whole thing is hypocritical.

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06-16-2004, 12:53 PM
  #24
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Nash, I may be wrong here but I think you're missing the point. The 'violence' you describe occurs in NHL hockey but is all outside of the defined rules. Cheapshots are a part of the game that one hopes can be policed strictly if not eliminated. There is a level of violence,by definition, in all contact sports. Football and rugby are examples of what I guess is called controlled violence. Seeing a receiver drilled coming acroos the middle is a violent part of the game, taking out a QB's knees 3 seconds after a pass is a different issue. Keep in mind that fighting isn't allowed in hockey and is penalized. It's the penalty that's up for discussion. I don't think that anyone is arguing that hockey should take the contact out of the game.

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06-16-2004, 01:10 PM
  #25
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Nash, I may be wrong here but I think you're missing the point. The 'violence' you describe occurs in NHL hockey but is all outside of the defined rules. Cheapshots are a part of the game that one hopes can be policed strictly if not eliminated. There is a level of violence,by definition, in all contact sports. Football and rugby are examples of what I guess is called controlled violence. Seeing a receiver drilled coming acroos the middle is a violent part of the game, taking out a QB's knees 3 seconds after a pass is a different issue. Keep in mind that fighting isn't allowed in hockey and is penalized. It's the penalty that's up for discussion. I don't think that anyone is arguing that hockey should take the contact out of the game.

My point is though, if you are against violence in general like the poster said, then he is just sitting on the fence like anyone else. To say you are against violence, then say, well its okay if you hit, slash, elbow someone, thats fine, but damn to hell with you fighting is wrong.

But again slashing and crosschecking and elbowing isn't allowed in hockey either and its penalized, same as fighting. Its seems like he is cutting a fine line between what he feels is acceptable violence but than is saying he doesn't like violence in general. Something doesn't add up.

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