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Old
11-28-2010, 02:32 PM
  #51
FDBluth
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My only problem is that every time he's called up, he just barely is able to keep up with the speed of the game. He constantly seems like he's really having to strain to make even the most basic plays. I understand that it's not as necessary to have that part of the game down if you're going to be the kind of player that Tangradi projects to be, but his hockey sense is not nearly developed enough to be an impactful player yet. And I haven't seen any signs of him turning the corner in that area. Granted, I haven't seen much of him in WBS, but 4 points in 11 games are whatever it is isn't a good sign.

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11-28-2010, 02:52 PM
  #52
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11-28-2010, 03:52 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
How did not dominating in the A work out for Stewart, Neal, Backes...?

How did dominating the A work out for John Slaney, Milan Kraft, Don Biggs, Chris Snell, etc?

That's kind of the way I look at it. A while back there was a thread / post I made where I compared Tangradi, Neal and a few other players from Jr forward, to make the same point. That some guys will put up big numbers in the Q or OHL, do OK in the AHL, then pick things back up in the NHL.

Again I don't disagree he could probably use more work but waiting for the big numbers doesn't make any sense if the coaches believe he's improved his all-around game enough beyond that.

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11-28-2010, 03:53 PM
  #54
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Those are the kind of plays that make me optimistic about Tangradi. I don't see enough of WBS to know if this is happening, but net front presence guys need someone else to be the focal point of the offence. They're the prototypical support players. It doesn't matter how good your screen is or what kind of skill you have deflecting pucks if the creative guys on your line don't get the puck to the net with good timing.

I really think playing with Geno and one of a sniper or puck retrieval play-maker would let him flourish at the NHL level once he gets used to the speed of the game and finds a little more consistency. Whether it's in 1 year or 3 he'll score 20 goals for this team.

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11-29-2010, 08:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
That's kind of the way I look at it. A while back there was a thread / post I made where I compared Tangradi, Neal and a few other players from Jr forward, to make the same point. That some guys will put up big numbers in the Q or OHL, do OK in the AHL, then pick things back up in the NHL.

Again I don't disagree he could probably use more work but waiting for the big numbers doesn't make any sense if the coaches believe he's improved his all-around game enough beyond that.
He needs work and as I said in the Summer - people need to be patient. I know he is NHL ready now, but the Pens want him to toil in the A, so he has to do what they feel is best. I don't think his time in the A will do much for his development at this point. Just my honest opinion.

He is being asked to completely change his game to a PF because he is big. Period. When he played for the Bulls, he was on an Olympic sized rink and he played a highly skilled game. Now he is being told to crash the net, bang bodies, and create space for his linemates. He can learn to do that in the NHL.

It takes time to reinvent your game like that and the Pens and Db need to be patient. No matter if he is brought up tomorrow, next month, next year, etc, he is going to need a lot of time to develop at the NHL level.

I don't think he is ever going to dominate in the A, and to be honest I could give 2 left balls if he did. As long as he does what the coaches tell him, he will get his chance again.

I just am not a big believer that dominating in the A is something a player has to do, as I have seen many times over the years guys dominate, then do zip in the NHL, and vice versa. I feel like the Pens are wasting NHL development time with him right now, as it has to be done at some point.

I believe that blueliners and goalies should be held down longer as they have more technical aspects that need to be perfected, but fwds can only learn so much in the A.

At some point, they need to learn how to play agt. NHL caliber blueliners, and I don't believe more time in the A will help Tangradi do that.

But it is what it is. Until the Pens prove they can properly develop a top 6 fwd who wasn't a #1 or #2 pick, I'll always have major questions in my mind about how they handle these prospects.

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11-29-2010, 09:46 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
He needs work and as I said in the Summer - people need to be patient. I know he is NHL ready now, but the Pens want him to toil in the A, so he has to do what they feel is best. I don't think his time in the A will do much for his development at this point. Just my honest opinion.

He is being asked to completely change his game to a PF because he is big. Period. When he played for the Bulls, he was on an Olympic sized rink and he played a highly skilled game. Now he is being told to crash the net, bang bodies, and create space for his linemates. He can learn to do that in the NHL.

It takes time to reinvent your game like that and the Pens and Db need to be patient. No matter if he is brought up tomorrow, next month, next year, etc, he is going to need a lot of time to develop at the NHL level.

I don't think he is ever going to dominate in the A, and to be honest I could give 2 left balls if he did. As long as he does what the coaches tell him, he will get his chance again.

I just am not a big believer that dominating in the A is something a player has to do, as I have seen many times over the years guys dominate, then do zip in the NHL, and vice versa. I feel like the Pens are wasting NHL development time with him right now, as it has to be done at some point.

I believe that blueliners and goalies should be held down longer as they have more technical aspects that need to be perfected, but fwds can only learn so much in the A.

At some point, they need to learn how to play agt. NHL caliber blueliners, and I don't believe more time in the A will help Tangradi do that.

But it is what it is. Until the Pens prove they can properly develop a top 6 fwd who wasn't a #1 or #2 pick, I'll always have major questions in my mind about how they handle these prospects.
He's definetly not NHL ready. He doesn't need to dominate at the AHL level but he does need to show up every night and play at a high level consistantly to get called up again. He played a high skill game in juniors because he could dominate at the junior level because of his size. He can't do that at the pro level. Everyone is big and strong. So he has to become a force in the mold of a power forward if he wants to succeed at the NHL level. He can definetly learn that in the AHL. He will get there but he needs more time to round out his game.

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11-29-2010, 10:09 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
He's definetly not NHL ready. He doesn't need to dominate at the AHL level but he does need to show up every night and play at a high level consistantly to get called up again. He played a high skill game in juniors because he could dominate at the junior level because of his size. He can't do that at the pro level. Everyone is big and strong. So he has to become a force in the mold of a power forward if he wants to succeed at the NHL level. He can definetly learn that in the AHL. He will get there but he needs more time to round out his game.
I disagree. He is NHL ready.

He is strong enough and has the hockey IQ to play in the NHL right now.

Again, he can play in the A for the next 5 years, but it won't prepare him for the speed and strength of NHL defenders.

Only playing agt. NHL players night in and night out will prepare him, and only then can he learn what adjustments he has to make to his own game to be successful.

No matter how long he stays in the A, another month, another year, another 2 years, once he comes up full time, he will still take another year or more to adjust to NHL speed.

There is no way around it, no matter how much time he spends in the A. Simply put, the longer he is in the A, the longer it will take for him to develop as a legit NHL PF.

A fwd should only be kept in the A to learn defensive responsibilities or to get stronger, and neither apply to Tangradi.


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11-29-2010, 10:15 AM
  #58
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Gotta be patient when it comes to Tangradi.

Best case scenario? We got our own version of Bobby Ryan on our hands.

Worst case scenario? Tangradi turns out to be a solid 3rd liner that can occasionally get the bump up to the 2nd line.

I think we all gotta be a little more patient here. Look at Chris Stewart (COL), he spent parts of two seasons in the AHL and didn't put up any eye-popping numbers, yet he's now a solid player for the Avs. If not one of the best power forwards in the league.

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11-29-2010, 10:48 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post
I can see why some of you aren't scouts. Caputi part 2?
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Originally Posted by Pens17 View Post
OK, provide even a scintilla of OBJECTIVE analysis why it is different this time!
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Originally Posted by AugustBurnsRed View Post


He's bigger, a better skater, he's stronger, he has better puck skills and he's a better hitter.
So in essence, Tangradi isn't another Caputi because he's a year younger than Caputi and better at just about every part of hockey? I'd have to say I agree with that analysis.

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11-29-2010, 12:54 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I disagree. He is NHL ready.

He is strong enough and has the hockey IQ to play in the NHL right now.

Again, he can play in the A for the next 5 years, but it won't prepare him for the speed and strength of NHL defenders.

Only playing agt. NHL players night in and night out will prepare him, and only then can he learn what adjustments he has to make to his own game to be successful.

No matter how long he stays in the A, another month, another year, another 2 years, once he comes up full time, he will still take another year or more to adjust to NHL speed.

There is no way around it, no matter how much time he spends in the A. Simply put, the longer he is in the A, the longer it will take for him to develop as a legit NHL PF.

A fwd should only be kept in the A to learn defensive responsibilities or to get stronger, and neither apply to Tangradi.
I guess we agree to disagree.

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11-29-2010, 01:36 PM
  #61
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I guess we agree to disagree.
Well let's be honest, it only matters what the Penguins brass think so...

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11-29-2010, 04:37 PM
  #62
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Well let's be honest, it only matters what the Penguins brass think so...
Agreed. And they're not on your side (or mine) on this issue, unfortunately.

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11-29-2010, 07:59 PM
  #63
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Fans overater their own prospects.
I don't see Tangradi as being a shoe in by any stretch.
He might be a top 6 (ceiling), but also might be a less impact 3/4 liner.

How's Luca Caputi doing?

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11-29-2010, 08:07 PM
  #64
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Fans overater their own prospects.
I don't see Tangradi as being a shoe in by any stretch.
He might be a top 6 (ceiling), but also might be a less impact 3/4 liner.

How's Luca Caputi doing?
I think he's going to make it full time next season but he still has a lot of things to work on. I think our dissagreement is where he should work on those things, in the NHL or the AHL. Because he's on a two way entry level contract that gives the Pens more reason to keep him in WBS. If he starts to show that he deserves a promotion the Pens will make some moves if they think Tangradi will help them. He just hasn't shown it so far.

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11-29-2010, 08:08 PM
  #65
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If anyone is going to get a call up it will be Jeffery. He's been on fire!

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11-29-2010, 08:59 PM
  #66
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I think a lot of people rooting for Tangradi have to do with him being acquired via trade, plus his higher draft pick. I do think he'll be similar to Caputi, just because you have the parts doesn't mean they work perfectly. Jeffrey has proven himself over and over again but can't break into the NHL. Jeffrey would have been drafted WAY earlier but missed almost and entire season of OHL due to a serious knee injury right before his draft year. Because of this he was passed on completely, and only after finishing 7th in scoring and showing he had recovered did the penguins get him at a steal in the 6th round a year past his draft year. Had he not had that knee injury Pens fans would be saying "Why isn't Jeffrey up" rather than, "Why isn't Tangradi up?"

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11-29-2010, 09:12 PM
  #67
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I think a lot of people rooting for Tangradi have to do with him being acquired via trade, plus his higher draft pick. I do think he'll be similar to Caputi, just because you have the parts doesn't mean they work perfectly. Jeffrey has proven himself over and over again but can't break into the NHL. Jeffrey would have been drafted WAY earlier but missed almost and entire season of OHL due to a serious knee injury right before his draft year. Because of this he was passed on completely, and only after finishing 7th in scoring and showing he had recovered did the penguins get him at a steal in the 6th round a year past his draft year. Had he not had that knee injury Pens fans would be saying "Why isn't Jeffrey up" rather than, "Why isn't Tangradi up?"
It's more because Jeffrey always projected into a bottom 6 NHL role, whereas Tangradi looked to have potential to fit into our top 9 as a complementary power forward who could play in the crease on the PP. And we need one of those MUCH more than the other.

I see what you're saying but it's about projection.

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11-29-2010, 09:19 PM
  #68
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It's more because Jeffrey always projected into a bottom 6 NHL role, whereas Tangradi looked to have potential to fit into our top 9 as a complementary power forward who could play in the crease on the PP. And we need one of those MUCH more than the other.

I see what you're saying but it's about projection.
Still, Jeffrey and Tangradi are virtually the same age, and DJ's been outproducing him and playing a more versatile role every step of the way. At some point Tangradi's going to have to translate his appealing size and skillset into results at the pro level.

I'm not an avid WBS watcher, but I don't want Jeffrey to turn into a Peverley-like steal for another team because he can't get a fair shake here.

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11-29-2010, 09:23 PM
  #69
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Still, Jeffrey and Tangradi are virtually the same age, and DJ's been outproducing him and playing a more versatile role every step of the way. At some point Tangradi's going to have to translate his appealing size and skillset into results at the pro level.

I'm not an avid WBS watcher, but I don't want Jeffrey to turn into a Peverley-like steal for another team because he can't get a fair shake here.
Oh, I agree, and I would have had him up here already. Especially with our current roster.

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11-29-2010, 09:34 PM
  #70
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Still, Jeffrey and Tangradi are virtually the same age, and DJ's been outproducing him and playing a more versatile role every step of the way. At some point Tangradi's going to have to translate his appealing size and skillset into results at the pro level.

I'm not an avid WBS watcher, but I don't want Jeffrey to turn into a Peverley-like steal for another team because he can't get a fair shake here.
I think that as long as the team is winning, there's no need to bring Jeffrey up for now. I doubt that his play has been missed by management, and I'm sure he will be given every chance to make the team next year, or even this year if the team slumps again. I just hope they'll leave two spots open for Tangradi and Jeffrey next year.

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11-30-2010, 01:54 AM
  #71
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Still, Jeffrey and Tangradi are virtually the same age, and DJ's been outproducing him and playing a more versatile role every step of the way. At some point Tangradi's going to have to translate his appealing size and skillset into results at the pro level.
Well - they're one seasons worth of AHL hockey apart and Tangradi had his rookie year derailed by concussion. However, Jeffrey had 37 points in 63 games with 11 goals. Tangradi had 39 points in 65 games with 17 goals. Don't quite see that as being outproduced.
Jeffrey broke out points wise in his second season, when he was playing wing on the top line (with Letestu), and so far Tangradi has hardly been in a similar situation playing with Vitale.

Anyway - they're different types of players, and it remains that the big men habitually do not break out early. In the AHL or the NHL. We all hope that Tangradi makes a bee-line to the top PP on the NHL team as a top6 forward, but going by his draft pedigree and the norm for similar players, we'd be really lucky if he had a breakout season next year (in the NHL). At some point we're going to have to break him in though if he is to ever be that player for us. Production be damned. For instance I think he'd do just as well as Connor in the NHL now - though in a different fashion - if played consistently in the same role (which didn't happen), and the upside to getting Tangradi acclimated is obviously a ways higher.

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I'm not an avid WBS watcher, but I don't want Jeffrey to turn into a Peverley-like steal for another team because he can't get a fair shake here.
Me neither. But when Staal returns, a genuinely fair shake seems difficult to get for our 5th best center.... not counting Talbot and Adams. But like Tangradi, I have no doubt he'd do at least as well as Connor. Gotta move some of the cap-fluff before it becomes possible to give the deserving AHL kids a chance though.

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11-30-2010, 08:36 AM
  #72
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Well - they're one seasons worth of AHL hockey apart and Tangradi had his rookie year derailed by concussion. However, Jeffrey had 37 points in 63 games with 11 goals. Tangradi had 39 points in 65 games with 17 goals. Don't quite see that as being outproduced.
Jeffrey broke out points wise in his second season, when he was playing wing on the top line (with Letestu), and so far Tangradi has hardly been in a similar situation playing with Vitale.
How much of Tangradi's playing with Vitale can be attributed to his play? I'm sure that if he warranted a promotion to an AHL top line he'd get it, but most opinions from WBS observers have been lukewarm until recently.

Quote:
Anyway - they're different types of players, and it remains that the big men habitually do not break out early. In the AHL or the NHL. We all hope that Tangradi makes a bee-line to the top PP on the NHL team as a top6 forward, but going by his draft pedigree and the norm for similar players, we'd be really lucky if he had a breakout season next year (in the NHL). At some point we're going to have to break him in though if he is to ever be that player for us. Production be damned. For instance I think he'd do just as well as Connor in the NHL now - though in a different fashion - if played consistently in the same role (which didn't happen), and the upside to getting Tangradi acclimated is obviously a ways higher.
Is it though? Or is it that we're more enthralled with a big net crasher than a versatile scoring wing?

Bombulie seems to think Jeffrey is playing like an AHL star (in a good way) at this age. Maybe we have a Peverley on our hands if we give him a chance. I'd sure take that in our top 6.

Maybe Jeffrey's getting slept on too much.

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Me neither. But when Staal returns, a genuinely fair shake seems difficult to get for our 5th best center.... not counting Talbot and Adams. But like Tangradi, I have no doubt he'd do at least as well as Connor. Gotta move some of the cap-fluff before it becomes possible to give the deserving AHL kids a chance though.
Yep. Comrie and Godard can go any time AFAIC.

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11-30-2010, 08:58 AM
  #73
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Gotta be patient when it comes to Tangradi.

Best case scenario? We got our own version of Bobby Ryan on our hands.

Worst case scenario? Tangradi turns out to be a solid 3rd liner that can occasionally get the bump up to the 2nd line.

I think we all gotta be a little more patient here. Look at Chris Stewart (COL), he spent parts of two seasons in the AHL and didn't put up any eye-popping numbers, yet he's now a solid player for the Avs. If not one of the best power forwards in the league.
I think Bobby Ryan is an over optimistic best case scenario, Tangradi doesn't have the hands that Ryan has. Best case scenario to me is a big powerforward who puts up 30-30-60 consistently.

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11-30-2010, 08:59 AM
  #74
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Tanger will be fine. There are too many expectations on him right now because of this org. inability to draft and develop legit top 6ers.

As I keep saying it is quite obvious that he is being molded into a PF role... right or wrong. He looked like a robot at times when he was up and it was frustrating, because you knew he was focusing on banging bodies and crashing the net above using his God given talents.

He is playing a much different game than he did in Jrs, and it isn't difficult to see that the coaches are in his ear about how they expect him to play.

It is what the org. wants from him, so no matter what I feel or others feel is best for his development - he has to do what they tell him.

I'm not worried about points, but more so that he is doing what he is told, which he is.

No matter how many points he scores, in the end just like with Jeffrey, it matters very little once you get in the NHL. Once these guys are in the NHL, the learning curve starts all over again.

The NHL is full of guys who never did very well in the A and the A is full of prolific scorers who couldn't cut it in the bigs.

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11-30-2010, 09:23 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
He needs work and as I said in the Summer - people need to be patient. I know he is NHL ready now, but the Pens want him to toil in the A, so he has to do what they feel is best. I don't think his time in the A will do much for his development at this point. Just my honest opinion.

He is being asked to completely change his game to a PF because he is big. Period. When he played for the Bulls, he was on an Olympic sized rink and he played a highly skilled game. Now he is being told to crash the net, bang bodies, and create space for his linemates. He can learn to do that in the NHL.

It takes time to reinvent your game like that and the Pens and Db need to be patient. No matter if he is brought up tomorrow, next month, next year, etc, he is going to need a lot of time to develop at the NHL level.


Great post.

I agree he will be one of those guys who develops and learns better in the NHL vs. the AHL. IOW even if he does well in the AHL statistically for a few months or whatever, as soon as they call him up he's going to have a learning curve again. His main issue IMO is learning the speed of the game and improving his situational awareness databanks every game. Learn what to do and what not to do in all situations. That will take time but no amount of time in the AHL will teach him that.

Someone else said "best case... our version of Bobby Ryan". You're dreaming. Eric Tangradi will never be as good a goal scorer as Bobby Ryan, but he can be a very effective winger for the type of team and Disco-puck game we're using.

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