HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

It's All About Work for Tangradi

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-30-2010, 09:39 AM
  #76
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
Great post.

I agree he will be one of those guys who develops and learns better in the NHL vs. the AHL. IOW even if he does well in the AHL statistically for a few months or whatever, as soon as they call him up he's going to have a learning curve again. His main issue IMO is learning the speed of the game and improving his situational awareness databanks every game. Learn what to do and what not to do in all situations. That will take time but no amount of time in the AHL will teach him that.
Yep. This is what I was trying to stress to people who kept chanting the "He needs to go back to the A and dominate" line.

That kind of thinking drives me nuts because it means zilch whether he dominates in the A or not.

I don't know how much more I can simplify the fact that Tangradi is NHL ready and should not be spending time in the A.

Does this mean he is going to score 20 goals in the NHL off the bat - no. It simply means he has the strength and hockey IQ to play in the NHL right now.

Is he better served playing on the third line in the NHL like I kept clamoring for? Or in the A?

The answer is self-explanatory and it's frustrating to deal with, but that is part of being a fan.

Quote:
Someone else said "best case... our version of Bobby Ryan". You're dreaming. Eric Tangradi will never be as good a goal scorer as Bobby Ryan, but he can be a very effective winger for the type of team and Disco-puck game we're using.
Ryan is special and Tanger will never be a natural goal scorer like him. If he ever scored 30 I would be surprised.

Tangradi at best will be a 25 goal, 55 point guy, which would be exactly what this team needs.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:57 AM
  #77
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I think Bobby Ryan is an over optimistic best case scenario, Tangradi doesn't have the hands that Ryan has. Best case scenario to me is a big powerforward who puts up 30-30-60 consistently.
Yeah, I agree. In Bobby Ryan, you're looking at a guy who is probably going to settle around 40 goals and 75 point average once his career really starts going.

If Tangradi can bring 25 goals and 50 points...that's a success.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 10:03 AM
  #78
Captain Hook
Olli Määttä
 
Captain Hook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 12,698
vCash: 500
I actually think Tangradi's hands are really good despite the fact he didn't really show that off when he was up here. The difference between him and Ryan to me is that Ryan is a much better shooter and a more dynamic player. Ryan can score power forward type of goals and some fancier goals that Tangradi can't pull off. Tangradi will score primarily garbage goals off deflections, banging in rebounds and that sort of thing. He reminds me of Malone in that regard.

Captain Hook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 10:05 AM
  #79
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Dark Mod Powers
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fangorn
Country: United States
Posts: 24,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

Is he better served playing on the third line in the NHL like I kept clamoring for? Or in the A?
I think it's all a question of minutes. If he routinely gets < 10 min / game in Pittsburgh, when he can get ≥ 18 min a game in the AHL, then I'd go with the AHL for now. Sucks but even playing in a slower league for 18 minutes is more useful to his development / training / etc right now, than 8 minutes in the NHL.

You need enough ice time to get some rhythm and continuity going; if the coaches will give him 12+ min a game here, with the occasional 18+ minute game when he's playing well then I'd be OK with that. But Bylsma was giving him less than 10 min a game at one point if I recall (during our slump) which is just stupid.

I think Shero and Disco and those guys are big believers in paying your dues above all else, which is why we see Connor up here and not Tangradi. Although not sure how Jeffrey fits into that argument.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 10:19 AM
  #80
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
I think Shero and Disco and those guys are big believers in paying your dues above all else, which is why we see Connor up here and not Tangradi. Although not sure how Jeffrey fits into that argument.
Conner is getting big minutes and good on him, but is he really the answer? Is this guy going to be part of this team's future?

Again to me they are playing stop gaps instead of giving that ice time to their legit prospects. It is a trap mgmt. keeps falling into. They need to be patient and stick with the young guys and let them go through their learning curves. It is the only way to develop young talent.

TK is the last fwd they really developed... think about that...

If this team had a semblance of an idea of how to develop a top 6 fwd I wouldn't be questioning what they do... but the reality is they haven't proven to any of us that they can - so the questions will remain until they finally do, at least in my mind.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 10:36 AM
  #81
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Dark Mod Powers
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fangorn
Country: United States
Posts: 24,529
vCash: 500
I think Connor will have to earn his way onto the team next year even if he sticks around this year, especially if we get a decent wing talent in the off-season who isn't: a) an old man; b) an injured man; c) a reclamation project like Comrie. I think it's fairly likely we're going to cut guys like Rupp, Talbot and Dupuis loose to make room for a solid signing, and we'll fill the gaps with guys like Connor, Tangradi and Jeffrey. Not because the coaches don't like those guys but because unlike the ELC guys they're going to ask for enough money as to make our cap situation difficult if we need to sign someone of Laich's calibre, who is already making $2M+ and will likely get close to double the salary.

But my larger point was that Connor is out there because he's been in the AHL longer and had some decent moments up here last year. Not because they think he'll be a more effective player than Tangradi necessarily. They know he knows his job now and probably doesn't need a lot of hand-holding, whereas Tangradi would certainly require more of the coach's attention. Basically, they've said all along they plan to play the same system, same everything in the AHL. So, let the AHL coaches teach Tangradi what his role will be, and when he understands it, they'll call him up hopefully. Thinking that might be February-ish, but we'll see. If we keep winning like this he's not coming up.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 10:54 AM
  #82
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
But my larger point was that Connor is out there because he's been in the AHL longer and had some decent moments up here last year. Not because they think he'll be a more effective player than Tangradi necessarily. They know he knows his job now and probably doesn't need a lot of hand-holding, whereas Tangradi would certainly require more of the coach's attention. Basically, they've said all along they plan to play the same system, same everything in the AHL. So, let the AHL coaches teach Tangradi what his role will be, and when he understands it, they'll call him up hopefully. Thinking that might be February-ish, but we'll see. If we keep winning like this he's not coming up.
Ya I know what you are trying to say - I just don't feel it is the best way to develop him right now.

As you said, they will be counting on him to step in next year because he is on an ELC.

The problem is, he could be learning at the NHL level now, and by next year be much further along in his development.

It isn't like he is in the A on a scoring line... he is banging and crashing, going to the net... laying the body... all things he could do in the NHL on the third line, and be learning agt. actual NHL caliber players.

Come next season, he will be starting at square one all over again and be at the bottom of the learning curve because he hasn't spent time in the NHL.

It is basically burning another year on his ELC in my opinion.

Basically my argument boils down to the fact that it doesn't matter what I think anyway because Shero and DB will do what they feel is best - but on the flipside, it is hard as a fan to trust their decision-making when this org has been so piss poor at developing young fwds.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 11:04 AM
  #83
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Dark Mod Powers
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fangorn
Country: United States
Posts: 24,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Ya I know what you are trying to say - I just don't feel it is the best way to develop him right now.

As you said, they will be counting on him to step in next year because he is on an ELC.

The problem is, he could be learning at the NHL level now, and by next year be much further along in his development.

It isn't like he is in the A on a scoring line... he is banging and crashing, going to the net...

Don't get me wrong; I don't *agree* with why they're opting for a guy like Connor over Tangradi, just saying I think that's what they're doing / how they operate.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 11:42 AM
  #84
uomfan123
Registered User
 
uomfan123's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 264
vCash: 500
Just a random thought. Could Shero have Tangradi in the A for development and to try to keep the cost of his next contract down?

uomfan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 02:07 PM
  #85
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Basically my argument boils down to the fact that it doesn't matter what I think anyway because Shero and DB will do what they feel is best .
You finally figured out that they really don't care what you think. They are running the Penguins and doing a pretty good job of it. There is more to to business side of running a successfull hockey franchise than just pushing a prospect through because the fans are clammering to see him. They are winning now so they aren't going to make any rash moves.


Last edited by bigd: 11-30-2010 at 02:17 PM.
bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 02:26 PM
  #86
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
You finally figured out that they don't give a $hit about what you think.
No slick I figured that out when I was around 12 years old.

Quote:
They are running the Penguins and doing a pretty good job of it. There is more to to business side of running a successfull hockey franchise than just pushing a prospect through because the fans are clammering to see him.
You're right.... no need to question an org. that has developed exactly one legit top 6 fwd since 1993.

It isn't like they keep having to trade away assets at the deadline every year trying to find top 6 wingers... oh wait... they won a cup with ass wingers so all is well.

Quote:
They are winning now so they aren't going to make any rash moves.
Wrong thread?

Because I don't see anyone asking for any rash moves to be made in this discussion.

Having Jeffrey, Johnson or Tangradi in Conner's place would be pretty rash...

It would probably upset the entire dynamic of this team.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 04:20 PM
  #87
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
No slick I figured that out when I was around 12 years old.



You're right.... no need to question an org. that has developed exactly one legit top 6 fwd since 1993.

It isn't like they keep having to trade away assets at the deadline every year trying to find top 6 wingers... oh wait... they won a cup with ass wingers so all is well.



Wrong thread?

Because I don't see anyone asking for any rash moves to be made in this discussion.

Having Jeffrey, Johnson or Tangradi in Conner's place would be pretty rash...

It would probably upset the entire dynamic of this team.
You really have a mancrush for Tangradi. I do think Jeffrey deserves a shot but Conner was playing the best when he got called up. Johnson and Tangradi aren't ready for prime time and I told Shero that. That's why they haven't been called up. You know so much about how the team should be run you should give Shero a shout out. Maybe he'll take your advise and pull Tangradi up. The guy needs some help. He just doesn't know how to manage an NHL team.


Last edited by bigd: 11-30-2010 at 04:40 PM.
bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 04:40 PM
  #88
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Having Jeffrey, Johnson or Tangradi in Conner's place would be pretty rash...

It would probably upset the entire dynamic of this team.
It's difficult to argue against Conner right now though.

I had less than zero expectations when he got called up, and I wanted to see a guy like Jeffrey or Tangradi up instead at the time, but he's been great on our 3rd line.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 05:01 PM
  #89
mich
Registered User
 
mich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 471
vCash: 500
I'm pretty sure when we acquired Tangradi the projection was "Malone with work ethic and 7/10 skating". Is that not what we're getting now? Is that not good now?

mich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 05:41 PM
  #90
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
You really have a mancrush for Tangradi.
I'm not going to apologize for thinking Tangradi has a bigger future with this team than Conner.

Quote:
Johnson and Tangradi aren't ready for prime time and I told Shero that. That's why they haven't been called up. You know so much about how the team should be run you should give Shero a shout out. Maybe he'll take your advise and pull Tangradi up. The guy needs some help. He just doesn't know how to manage an NHL team.
First off let's not make things up about my argument. I have given Shero a ton of credit for moves he has made and many of his draft decisions. I don't once recall making a statement he doesn't know how to run a team - only questioning how he is handling their fwd prospects.

But hey if it makes your argument look better to make things up - more power to you.

If you want to pretend there isn't a problem there, cool. Your dead wrong, but hey whatever floats your boat.

I know they haven't had a winger score 30 goals in a decade.

I know the last fwd. from their farm to have an impact was TK.

I know in 17 years Malone is the only fwd prospect they developed into a top 6 fwd who wasn't a #1 or #2 pick.

So yeah, I'm going to question what this org. does when it comes to developing wingers, because it IS and HAS been an issue there for quite some time.

To blindly believe all the moves Shero makes are right is not only foolish, but naive as well.


Last edited by Mr Jiggyfly: 11-30-2010 at 05:49 PM.
Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 06:40 PM
  #91
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm not going to apologize for thinking Tangradi has a bigger future with this team than Conner.



First off let's not make things up about my argument. I have given Shero a ton of credit for moves he has made and many of his draft decisions. I don't once recall making a statement he doesn't know how to run a team - only questioning how he is handling their fwd prospects.

But hey if it makes your argument look better to make things up - more power to you.

If you want to pretend there isn't a problem there, cool. Your dead wrong, but hey whatever floats your boat.

I know they haven't had a winger score 30 goals in a decade.

I know the last fwd. from their farm to have an impact was TK.

I know in 17 years Malone is the only fwd prospect they developed into a top 6 fwd who wasn't a #1 or #2 pick.

So yeah, I'm going to question what this org. does when it comes to developing wingers, because it IS and HAS been an issue there for quite some time.

To blindly believe all the moves Shero makes are right is not only foolish, but naive as well.
Like I said, "you can't make ä prime rib out of a pot roast". If he can't develope on a #1 team in the AHL he isn't going to develope in the NHL. But I know you think differently. Under your way of thinking all the prospects that have NHL size should be in the NHL be because they can't develope in the AHL. Or are you just singling out wings because that's what is needed on the big club? Everyone knows they need wingers but right now Tangradi is not the answer. He should be ripping it up in the AHL but some games he struggles and it's not because he's not playing with good players. You just don't promote a guy unless he's doing things the right way and deserves to be promoted. Right now their are others that deserve it more. I just don't see all the love for Tangradi. I hope he makes it but only on merit not just because we need a big wing.

bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 07:27 PM
  #92
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Like I said, "you can't make ä prime rib out of a pot roast". If he can't develope on a #1 team in the AHL he isn't going to develope in the NHL.
Ya that is so far off base it isn't even funny. I've already listed a number of players in other posts who did very little in the A and are thriving in the NHL.

It took Stewart well over two full NHL seasons before he thrived in Colorado and he was less than overwhelming in the A. Colorado gave him time to develop in the NHL - because that is THE only way young players develop into NHL players.

Quote:
But I know you think differently. Under your way of thinking all the prospects that have NHL size should be in the NHL be because they can't develope in the AHL. Or are you just singling out wings because that's what is needed on the big club? Everyone knows they need wingers but right now Tangradi is not the answer. He should be ripping it up in the AHL but some games he struggles and it's not because he's not playing with good players. You just don't promote a guy unless he's doing things the right way and deserves to be promoted. Right now their are others that deserve it more. I just don't see all the love for Tangradi. I hope he makes it but only on merit not just because we need a big wing.
This isn't based on calling up Tangradi. It is based on why he was sent down in the first place over retreads and grinders who won't be with this team in the future.

He earned his spot out of camp and deserved a much longer look to adjust to the NHL. It takes much longer than 10 games.

It could have been Jeffrey or Johnson who got sent down and I would be saying the same thing.

I already said I believe production in the A means very little in regards to how successful he will be in the NHL - so if you are waiting for him to rip it up down there, you could be waiting awhile.

If you think the team is better served in the long run having Conner up over a Jeffrey, Tangradi or a Johnson, that is your opinion, not mine.

Conner works hard, but he gets owned on the boards and I think I have seen him win maybe 3 battles down low the entire time he has been up. He isn't going to get any stronger or bigger. If you think he has a future with the team - great.

I don't.

Which brings me back full circle to my argument once again that while Shero is the GM, it doesn't mean every decision he makes is the right one - which has been proven true on a number of occasions in the past.

Young players only develop into NHL players when they are given NHL minutes. Period. Nothing will ever change that reality.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 08:40 PM
  #93
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Conner works hard, but he gets owned on the boards and I think I have seen him win maybe 3 battles down low the entire time he has been up. He isn't going to get any stronger or bigger. If you think he has a future with the team - great.
I don't think Conner gets owned along the boards at all. He can get muscled in physical battles, but he also has a ton of speed and shiftiness that benefit the line's puck acquisition and possession.

Further, Jig, the Pens are trying to win now, not develop their potential top 6 wingers in the NHL before they can prove themselves in the AHL. Whether Conner has a future with this team or not probably isn't foremost on Bylsma or Shero's mind.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:02 PM
  #94
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 26,823
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Conner is getting big minutes and good on him, but is he really the answer? Is this guy going to be part of this team's future?

Again to me they are playing stop gaps instead of giving that ice time to their legit prospects. It is a trap mgmt. keeps falling into. They need to be patient and stick with the young guys and let them go through their learning curves. It is the only way to develop young talent.

TK is the last fwd they really developed... think about that...

If this team had a semblance of an idea of how to develop a top 6 fwd I wouldn't be questioning what they do... but the reality is they haven't proven to any of us that they can - so the questions will remain until they finally do, at least in my mind.
I couldn't agree more. This winning streak could wind up doing more harm than good, long term.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:26 PM
  #95
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I don't think Conner gets owned along the boards at all. He can get muscled in physical battles, but he also has a ton of speed and shiftiness that benefit the line's puck acquisition and possession.

Further, Jig, the Pens are trying to win now, not develop their potential top 6 wingers in the NHL before they can prove themselves in the AHL. Whether Conner has a future with this team or not probably isn't foremost on Bylsma or Shero's mind.
Mr Jiggyfly seems to know the secret to developing players better than Shero because Shero is not 100% correct all the time. Am I missing something?

bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:37 PM
  #96
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
Great Play Orpik!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Mr Jiggyfly seems to know the secret to developing players better than Shero because Shero is not 100% correct all the time. Am I missing something?
Jiggy's a great poster, I just don't see how making Tangradi earn a spot is a bad thing, nor do I see why Conner's long-term value is even a factor in this discussion.

Detroit's system always gets praised to the heavens because they give their prospects a long development schedule until they're overripe, yet somehow it's terrible that the Pens don't hand Tangradi a spot after a whopping 39 point AHL season and a decidedly "meh" early season NHL stint.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:42 PM
  #97
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Young players only develop into NHL players when they are given NHL minutes. Period. Nothing will ever change that reality.
That statement is so far off base. You're really starting to look foolish. And what happens to the ones that are rushed into an NHL lineup and don't develop. Bottom line is the guys that are on ELC aren't going to get promoted to full time NHL spots as long as Shero is successfull in filling the team with cheap, proven, vets. That's just the way Shero roles and he's done a good job of it so far. No GM gets it right 100% of the time. You just have to be right more often than not and he has been. We're not going to win the Cup every year.

bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:45 PM
  #98
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Jiggy's a great poster, I just don't see how making Tangradi earn a spot is a bad thing, nor do I see why Conner's long-term value is even a factor in this discussion.

Detroit's system always gets praised to the heavens because they give their prospects a long development schedule until they're overripe, yet somehow it's terrible that the Pens don't hand Tangradi a spot after a whopping 39 point AHL season and a decidedly "meh" early season NHL stint.
I agree!

bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:46 PM
  #99
bigd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Jiggy's a great poster, I just don't see how making Tangradi earn a spot is a bad thing, nor do I see why Conner's long-term value is even a factor in this discussion.

Detroit's system always gets praised to the heavens because they give their prospects a long development schedule until they're overripe, yet somehow it's terrible that the Pens don't hand Tangradi a spot after a whopping 39 point AHL season and a decidedly "meh" early season NHL stint.
And just because Conner's not in the Pens long term plans doesn't mean he didn't deserve his promotion.

bigd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 09:58 PM
  #100
WVP
Registered User
 
WVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: United States
Posts: 12,894
vCash: 500
Tangradi can go ahead and score some goals in beautiful Scranton if he wants to put an end to this issue.

WVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.