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It's All About Work for Tangradi

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11-30-2010, 11:03 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
Tangradi can go ahead and score some goals in beautiful Scranton if he wants to put an end to this issue.
Exactly. Forcing management's hand should be Tangradi's #1 priority now.

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12-01-2010, 12:47 AM
  #102
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And just because Conner's not in the Pens long term plans doesn't mean he didn't deserve his promotion.
I suppose 'deserve' depends on a number of variables. I can buy that Conner played well enough to merit a look when there was an opening. Did he deserve it more than Jeffrey though? Did it make more sense than calling up Jeffrey who had his breakthrough season in the AHL playing on Letestu's left wing, the very position that got open?

Ultimately I disagree with your point above, because if it is about AHL production or likelihood that the call-up won't be thrown off by being in the NHL, then in most cases the deserving ones will obviously be the AHL vets who have played in the NHL in the past - such as Conner and Hutchinson.
That's very well if it is merely to cover for injury short term (like with Hutchinson at the start of the season where we had all those injuries), but if it is to actually give a chance to win an NHL gig, you gotta prioritize. Conner is never going to be any more than stop-gap/run of the mill in the NHL. With Tangradi and Jeffrey, there is at least the potential that they could be significant players, though not stars.

Also - when talking about 'the Detroit model' we're emphatically not talking about calling up Chris Conner. We're talking about Detroit keeping with their solid veteran guys until the young'uns are demonstrably better or the cap forces them to go in that direction.

Detroit has a very different kind of forward depth than we do, so it is really difficult to meaningfully compare our situations.
If, say, we had reasonably decent wingers for both Crosby and Malkin and Staal was still playing with Cooke and Kennedy on the third line, no one would be in a hurry with Tangradi. The fact that we don't have reasonably OK options for both our stars is why we have to accept investing some development time in guys who conceivably could help that situation - or continue with outright pluggers. I doubt anyone believes Conners is a long term option, and IMO it is short sighted not prioritizing development at this point of the season. It is not as if we're going to miss the playoffs.

Look at our D pipeline on the other hand... with what we have in the NHL, obviously it is going to make all sorts of sense to keep guys like Strait, Bortuzzo and even Despres down until they're really too good not to be up, or trade activity opens a spot. That way once they do make it up they'll be that much more physically prepared and most likely still on bargain contracts.

Here you can talk about us following the Detroit model, but ultimately Detroit only have this model going because they habitually have loaded rosters and rarely have high end 'can't miss' picks due to their success on the ice.
Looking at Detroit destroying San Jose away just now, they're reaping the benefits of the awesome draft choices they made on European players years -- > many years ago. An advantage that may or may not be gone, although I think Detroit have it right going for the home-run picks, because top tier teams like them and increasingly a team like the Pens, will always be able to fill short term gaps for the bottom6/bottom pairing in free agency. Hence what matters is to find the hidden gems who might really make a difference.

Recently promoted guys like Helm, Abdelkhader are no different than what we have with Talbot, Kennedy, Letestu - perhaps Jeffrey, and on D it is hard to put guys like Ericsson or Kindl (or Quincey who they traded away) over what we've been developing/are developing.'


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12-01-2010, 07:20 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I don't think Conner gets owned along the boards at all. He can get muscled in physical battles, but he also has a ton of speed and shiftiness that benefit the line's puck acquisition and possession.
Big difference between puck pursuit and board battles.

He is getting manhandled in board battles.

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Further, Jig, the Pens are trying to win now, not develop their potential top 6 wingers in the NHL before they can prove themselves in the AHL. Whether Conner has a future with this team or not probably isn't foremost on Bylsma or Shero's mind.
They don't have to be mutually exclusive things.

I think Conner has played well, but he is far from the reason why they are on this winning streak.

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Exactly. Forcing management's hand should be Tangradi's #1 priority now.
Jeffrey has been forcing their hand - where is he at now?

Also, Tangradi earned his spot out of camp and wasn't given adequate time to prove himself, which is what I have been discussing, not if he deserves a promotion currently.

Jeffrey, Johnson or Vitale deserve the call before him based on quality of play.


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12-01-2010, 07:35 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Mr Jiggyfly seems to know the secret to developing players better than Shero because Shero is not 100% correct all the time. Am I missing something?
You just let me know next year how the whole Conner thing worked out and why it was better than giving their legit prospects NHL ice time.

Let's just pretend there isn't a cap and prospect development doesn't matter.

Good luck with that.

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That statement is so far off base. You're really starting to look foolish. And what happens to the ones that are rushed into an NHL lineup and don't develop. Bottom line is the guys that are on ELC aren't going to get promoted to full time NHL spots as long as Shero is successfull in filling the team with cheap, proven, vets. That's just the way Shero roles and he's done a good job of it so far. No GM gets it right 100% of the time. You just have to be right more often than not and he has been. We're not going to win the Cup every year.
Yep, that is how Shero "roles" and is exactly why he finds himself in the position of having to deal vital assets every year at the deadline to find competent wingers to play with his two superstars.

Low and behold, he is facing that situation again this year, instead of giving his real prospects a chance to prove they can fill that role before he again has to deal more assets away.

Keep hiding your head in the sand and pretending there isn't a problem with the way this team develops fwds.

Tangradi earned his spot out of camp and should have been given at least until Christmas time to prove himself.

If it was Johnson or Jeffrey in his shoes, I would be saying the exact same thing, but if you want to blindly believe everything Shero does is right, cool.

You just go ahead and let me know when they develop a legit top 6 guy using this incredible way that "Shero roles" - I won't hold my breathe waiting.

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12-01-2010, 07:41 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Big difference between puck pursuit and board battles.

He is getting manhandled in board battles.



They don't have to be mutually exclusive things.

I think Conner has played well, but he is far from the reason why they are on this winning streak.
We know Conner is far from the reason why they are on this win streak but you can say the same thing about Tangradi in WBS. I agree that some of these forward prospects need to be brought up but right now the line starts behind Jeffrey and Tangadi is not even a close second.

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12-01-2010, 07:50 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
We know Conner is far from the reason why they are on this win streak but you can say the same thing about Tangradi in WBS. I agree that some of these forward prospects need to be brought up but right now the line starts behind Jeffrey and Tangadi is not even a close second.
You are talking about one issue while I am talking about another.

First of all I have said over and over that Jeffrey, Johnson and Vitale deserve the call before Tangradi right now...

My issue as I have said over and over is that Tangradi earned his spot out of camp and wasn't given enough time to prove himself.

It has nothing to do with how Tangradi is playing in the A, which makes little difference to me to be honest, as long as he is doing what the coaches ask of him, which is to bang bodies and go to the net.

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12-01-2010, 07:54 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Big difference between puck pursuit and board battles.

He is getting manhandled in board battles.
Speed, smarts, and shiftiness are both assets "along the boards". If you want to talk exclusively about 1-on-1 physical battles, then yes, Conner gets outmuscled a lot. But there is more to work along the boards than that, and he's used the advantages he has to work the cycle and maintain possession in the opposition zone.

How he's done it doesn't matter to me, so long as he does it. If it gets to the point where his size is enough of a disadvantage that he's ineffective, then by all means, they should send him down.

Quote:
They don't have to be mutually exclusive things.

I think Conner has played well, but he is far from the reason why they are on this winning streak.
That's true. But in this case, Conner has shown himself to be very effective in his role.

I don't know many 3rd line wingers who are the main reason for a team's hot streak, but I do know that his work on the 3rd line has contributed. The little guy's played solid.

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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Also - when talking about 'the Detroit model' we're emphatically not talking about calling up Chris Conner. We're talking about Detroit keeping with their solid veteran guys until the young'uns are demonstrably better or the cap forces them to go in that direction.
This isn't a Detroit team that has guys like a prime Draper and Maltby filling in their bottom 6 any more though, TR. Detroit went out and got Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves who were anything but established quality players or long-term options for the team because handing a job to a young guy in Grand Rapids like Mursak or Tatar isn't good operating procedure for a contender. Miller and Eaves were signed because they could play well in their limited role for the time being. Which sounds pretty familiar.

We're winning plenty of games despite being without a crucial cog in our team, and our prospects have to learn the system inside out and prove themselves in order to make the team. I just don't see how people are finding fault with this philosophy given what the returns have been so far, other than wanting to see the next wave in the big show (which we all do).

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12-01-2010, 08:04 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Speed, smarts, and shiftiness are both assets "along the boards". If you want to talk exclusively about 1-on-1 physical battles, then yes, Conner gets outmuscled a lot. But there is more to work along the boards than that, and he's used the advantages he has to work the cycle and maintain possession in the opposition zone.
You are talking about puck possession, which is fine and I give him all the credit in the world.

I am talking about 50/50 battles.... he is getting out-muscled consistently.

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How he's done it doesn't matter to me, so long as he does it. If it gets to the point where his size is enough of a disadvantage that he's ineffective, then by all means, they should send him down.
So do you feel he is a long term solution for this team?

Do you feel he would hold up and be effective in a third or fourth line role in the playoff meat grinder?

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I just don't see how people are finding fault with this philosophy given what the returns have been so far, other than wanting to see the next wave in the big show (which we all do).
I have no problem with making players earn their stripes... and Tangradi earned his spot out of camp, but wasn't given enough time to adapt.

This org. needs more patience with their young players before sending them down to make room for some grinder/reclamation project. It really is that simple.

Letestu isn't scoring or putting up big points, but he is contributing and getting valuable ice time.

Tangradi could of done the same IMHO.

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12-01-2010, 08:13 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You are talking about puck possession, which is fine and I give him all the credit in the world.

I am talking about 50/50 battles.... he is getting out-muscled consistently.
Fair enough. The earlier part of the conversation was a little vague on that front.

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So do you feel he is a long term solution for this team?

Do you feel he would hold up and be effective in a third or fourth line role in the playoff meat grinder?
No. I feel he is a current solution for this team.

He may well end up being effective in the playoffs.

Quote:
I have no problem with making players earn their stripes... and Tangradi earned his spot out of camp, but wasn't given enough time to adapt.

It really is that simple.


Letestu isn't scoring or putting up big points, but he is contributing and getting valuable ice time.

Tangradi could of done the same IMHO.
The problem is that Tangradi earned his spot, then by most accounts tapered off. Letestu and Conner earned their shot and then maintained a level of play that allowed them to keep their spot.

When Tangradi can not only make the team but keep up that level of play, then he'll be a Pittsburgh Penguin. Right now, he's a 21 year old with potential learning to bring it every night, which means the AHL should suit him perfectly.

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12-01-2010, 08:15 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You are talking about puck possession, which is fine and I give him all the credit in the world.

I am talking about 50/50 battles.... he is getting out-muscled consistently.



So do you feel he is a long term solution for this team?

Do you feel he would hold up and be effective in a third or fourth line role in the playoff meat grinder?



I have no problem with making players earn their stripes... and Tangradi earned his spot out of camp, but wasn't given enough time to adapt.

This org. needs more patience with their young players before sending them down to make room for some grinder/reclamation project. It really is that simple.

Letestu isn't scoring or putting up big points, but he is contributing and getting valuable ice time.

Tangradi could of done the same IMHO.
How much time is enough time?
Letestu adapted in that amount of time. Why does Tangradi deserve more? The #1 priority is winning games not prospect development. If they are winning with the players they have then there is no reason to call up anyone. They will have to wait for injuries and then the guy who is playing the best at that time will get the call. If that happens to be Tangradi then good for him.

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12-01-2010, 08:25 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
The problem is that Tangradi earned his spot, then by most accounts tapered off. Letestu and Conner earned their shot and then maintained a level of play that allowed them to keep their spot.

When Tangradi can not only make the team but keep up that level of play, then he'll be a Pittsburgh Penguin. Right now, he's a 21 year old with potential learning to bring it every night, which means the AHL should suit him perfectly.
Conner has been put into a specific role, Tangradi was bounced around from one line to another, which is why I kept suggesting he be put on the third line away from Malkin so he could do his thing without any pressure.

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12-01-2010, 08:29 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
How much time is enough time?
Letestu adapted in that amount of time. Why does Tangradi deserve more? The #1 priority is winning games not prospect development. If they are winning with the players they have then there is no reason to call up anyone. They will have to wait for injuries and then the guy who is playing the best at that time will get the call. If that happens to be Tangradi then good for him.
Letestu is much older and also has playoff experience, and has an extremely high hockey IQ. Not to mention he was waiver eligible which played a large role in why the team had to keep him up, despite how well he was playing.

Comparing them is apples to oranges.

Do you think Stewart, Backes and Neal were all-stars after their first 10 games?

Prospect development, especially with a PF like Tangradi is a huge roller coaster. He will play well for a stretch, then slump for a stretch, then learn how to work though that.... play well again... hit another slump, etc. until he learns how to be consistent AT THE NHL LEVEL. Only time in the NHL will teach him that.... I don't know how many more times I have to say it.

If you think 10 games was adequate time, then it is quite obvious you don't understand how prospect development works.

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12-01-2010, 08:42 AM
  #113
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I agree 100% with Jiggy .

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
This isn't a Detroit team that has guys like a prime Draper and Maltby filling in their bottom 6 any more though, TR. Detroit went out and got Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves who were anything but established quality players or long-term options for the team because handing a job to a young guy in Grand Rapids like Mursak or Tatar isn't good operating procedure for a contender.
Drew Miller was a bit of a "get what you can signing" when Detroit had injuries to start the season and needed someone/anyone who would be a bit scrappy. Patrick Eaves at league minimum made a great deal more sense than moving up Mursak or Tatar who were 21 and 19 respectively at the time. After all he was already a good PK'er with 250 NHL games behind him. Turned out a smart signing also.

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Miller and Eaves were signed because they could play well in their limited role for the time being. Which sounds pretty familiar.
Yeah, but that's the point. Detroit are not desperate for anyone to become a top6 forward because they have that covered and to the extent they did not in latter years, they've signed quality free agents (Hossa, Bertuzzi, and now getting back Hudler as a 2nd/3rd liner).

If all we needed were 4th liners I'd have no problems letting the kids develop forever or trade them more aggressively. But we need someone to not just make the NHL but also become credible for the top6, preferably soon, and none of Tangradi, Letestu or Jeffrey.... or Bennett when he is one day ready... are likely to be big success stories straight off the bat. That means spending time in more limited roles in the NHL before we can expect anything. Like where Conner is now, except there's no reason to expect that he will ever be a solution on the top6, so we're not investing anything. He's just 'OK' filler.

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12-01-2010, 09:07 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Letestu is much older and also has playoff experience, and has an extremely high hockey IQ. Not to mention he was waiver eligible which played a large role in why the team had to keep him up, despite how well he was playing.

Comparing them is apples to oranges.

Do you think Stewart, Backes and Neal were all-stars after their first 10 games?

Prospect development, especially with a PF like Tangradi is a huge roller coaster. He will play well for a stretch, then slump for a stretch, then learn how to work though that.... play well again... hit another slump, etc. until he learns how to be consistent AT THE NHL LEVEL. Only time in the NHL will teach him that.... I don't know how many more times I have to say it.

If you think 10 games was adequate time, then it is quite obvious you don't understand how prospect development works.
The #1 priority of the NHL Penguins is to win games not player development. The #1 job of the AHL Penguins is player development not winning games. You quite obviously don't understand how a successfull hockey organization is managed. Tangradi will get more than a 10 game shot when he shows that he's earned it. That may not be until next season which I don't see a problem with because he's young and we don't need to rush him.


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12-01-2010, 10:43 AM
  #115
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The #1 priority of the NHL Penguins is to win games not player development. The #1 job of the AHL Penguins is player development not winning games. You quite obviously don't understand how a successfull hockey organization is managed. Tangradi will get more than a 10 game shot when he shows that he's earned it. That may not be until next season which I don't see a problem with because he's young and we don't need to rush him.
A successful org. knows how to develop young players AND win. So don't tell me that playing Tangradi, Johnson or Jeffrey in place of Conner/Comrie/Bourque ____ (add your scrub/reclamation project here) would prevent this team from still winning.

It isn't a mutually exclusive thing and if you don't understand that, then there isn't much more I can say.

You blindly believe an org. that has shown a great failure to develop fwds is doing a great job, I don't.

So obviously we are not going to see eye to eye.

Again, you just go ahead and let me know when they actually do develop a legit top 6 guy.

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12-01-2010, 11:14 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
A successful org. knows how to develop young players AND win. So don't tell me that playing Tangradi, Johnson or Jeffrey in place of Conner/Comrie/Bourque ____ (add your scrub/reclamation project here) would prevent this team from still winning.

It isn't a mutually exclusive thing and if you don't understand that, then there isn't much more I can say.

You blindly believe an org. that has shown a great failure to develop fwds is doing a great job, I don't.

So obviously we are not going to see eye to eye.

Again, you just go ahead and let me know when they actually do develop a legit top 6 guy.
You're right about one thing, we don't see eye to eye. I think they are developing players the right way. Their biggest problem is that they have been so good the past few years that they haven't been able to draft high enough to get those elite players. I'm happy with that senario rather than the alternative. The ones that are in the system now aren't sure bets. But they have done a tremendous job with Jeffrey as a seventh rounder. And Caputi was doing well before we traded him. Tangradi is far from a sure thing and the big club winning is far more important than how fast he develops.

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12-01-2010, 11:24 AM
  #117
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You're right about one thing, we don't see eye to eye. I think they are developing players the right way. Their biggest problem is that they have been so good the past few years that they haven't been able to draft high enough to get those elite players. I'm happy with that senario rather than the alternative. The ones that are in the system now aren't sure bets. But they have done a tremendous job with Jeffrey as a seventh rounder. And Caputi was doing well before we traded him. Tangradi is far from a sure thing and the big club winning is far more important than how fast he develops.
Let the excuse making begin...

I think Shero is a very good GM, and has done a fine job with this org.

But until he shows he can develop fwds properly, I am going to have my doubts, especially when he continues to place more importance on giving NHL minutes to grinders/reclamation projects/ and players like Bourque and Conner over his more legit prospects.

The only thing we agree on is that none of Jeffrey, Johnson or Tangradi is a sure thing, but with the first two, we should already have good idea where they fit into this org plans by now - and we don't.

We do know the players Shero chose to give those NHL minutes to in their place haven't worked out... which is why he will once again use valuable assets at the deadline to try and resolve the winger situation on this team.

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12-01-2010, 11:35 AM
  #118
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Honestly, if somebody out there believes Tangradi got the same fair chance Conner is currently getting, then let's just agree to disagree and end this discussion right here.

That's my only problem with this situation. What TR is saying is right. Where teams can afford to be patient and wait it out with prospects, they usually do. And we're doing so with our defense prospects. And also our young goalie Thiessen I might add.

But when a team has an ugly winger situation, and your top prospect at the position gets 4 games to prove what he has, then gets demoted to the fourth line and ultimately sent down, what kind of a fair shake is that?

Throw in the fact that Conner was recalled when we were hitting on all cylinders, versus Tangradi up when we were really struggling early on, and you kinda wonder WHO the prospect is in the organization's eyes...and who's the AHL filler.

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12-01-2010, 11:48 AM
  #119
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That's my only problem with this situation. What TR is saying is right. Where teams can afford to be patient and wait it out with prospects, they usually do. And we're doing so with our defense prospects. And also our young goalie Thiessen I might add.

But when a team has an ugly winger situation, and your top prospect at the position gets 4 games to prove what he has, then gets demoted to the fourth line and ultimately sent down, what kind of a fair shake is that?

Throw in the fact that Conner was recalled when we were hitting on all cylinders, versus Tangradi up when we were really struggling early on, and you kinda wonder WHO the prospect is in the organization's eyes...and who's the AHL filler.
It probably means that the organization doesn't see the ugly wing situation as life-threatening the way the fans do. And there's some merit to that-- sure, we could be winning games more handily, but as is we're still top 10 in goals per game.

It's a "take a hit to make the play" kind of situation. We could throw Tangradi into the fire here and possibly stunt his growth, or we could suffer a little bit in the short term with the hope that a little extra seasoning in the AHL will reduce the amount of hand-holding and increase his effectiveness on the NHL roster.

It's a risk, sure. But there's no science to developing players, and it really has nothing to do with the organization having a vendetta against Tangradi. It's about making the lowest-risk decision. Whether or not you agree with that as developmental philospphy is a different matter entirely.

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12-01-2010, 11:55 AM
  #120
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I don't think anybody is suggesting the team doesn't like Tangradi or is exacting some form of vengeance upon him. It's nothing like that. It's EXACTLY what Jiggy says it is, though. Chitown, you said it yourself, there is no science to developing players. BUT, since this org. is 0-fer scoring wingers, clearly there's a problem here.

Do I think that the org. doesn't think the winger situation is as dire as some of us fans? Absolutely. That doesn't make it right.

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12-01-2010, 12:03 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Honestly, if somebody out there believes Tangradi got the same fair chance Conner is currently getting, then let's just agree to disagree and end this discussion right here.

That's my only problem with this situation. What TR is saying is right. Where teams can afford to be patient and wait it out with prospects, they usually do. And we're doing so with our defense prospects. And also our young goalie Thiessen I might add.

But when a team has an ugly winger situation, and your top prospect at the position gets 4 games to prove what he has, then gets demoted to the fourth line and ultimately sent down, what kind of a fair shake is that?

Throw in the fact that Conner was recalled when we were hitting on all cylinders, versus Tangradi up when we were really struggling early on, and you kinda wonder WHO the prospect is in the organization's eyes...and who's the AHL filler.
When Conner was called up he was one of the best players on the WBS team. Only recently has Jeffrey taken off and Tangradi still has yet to. I don't think the team owes Tangadi a fair shake. I think he owes it it to the team to work hard and play the right way and earn his promotion just like all the other prospects. Not just because he's the only power forward prospect in the organization.


Last edited by bigd: 12-01-2010 at 12:10 PM.
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12-01-2010, 12:10 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
When Conner was called up he was one of the best players on the WBS team. Only recently has Jeffrey taken off and Tangradi still has yet to.
Which, again, has NOTHING to do with why Tangradi was only given four games to prove his mettle in the NHL...when everybody on the club was struggling, including Sid.

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12-01-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
I don't think the team owes Tangadi a fair shake. I think he owes it it to the team to work hard and play the right way and earn his promotion just like all the other prospects. Not just because he's the only power forward prospect in the organization.
You do know that Tangradi EARNED a job with the big club after training camp, right? AHEAD of Conner. Unless you believe they HANDED him a job. Even if they did, they should have given him more rope than just four games.

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12-01-2010, 12:35 PM
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Why would you doubt managements ability to develop a top six forward? What kind of top six forward prospect has been available to them before Tangradi?

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12-01-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
When Conner was called up he was one of the best players on the WBS team. Only recently has Jeffrey taken off and Tangradi still has yet to. I don't think the team owes Tangadi a fair shake. I think he owes it it to the team to work hard and play the right way and earn his promotion just like all the other prospects. Not just because he's the only power forward prospect in the organization.
But Jeffery was better in every category.

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