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World cup in junior hockey teams

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Old
04-02-2012, 04:15 PM
  #176
Helpoing
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You can blame MHL for 21-22 y.o. players, but where will they play otherwise? RHL, really? Besides, vorky is right about NT camps - those deplete some team rosters significantly. I'm all for a more strict limit for 21 year guys - 2-3 instead of 5 and maybe a 5-6 player limit for those who are 20 as well. But in this case VHL & RHL (the latter has miles to go to reach the level of ECHL) need to step up.

And what I absolutely can't stand about MHL is the way they present the news. Glorified success and diminished meaning of a failure (not that CHL does it differently, heh).

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04-02-2012, 04:42 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helpoing View Post
You can blame MHL for 21-22 y.o. players, but where will they play otherwise? RHL, really?
First off, what's wrong with the RHL? It's still a paycheck.

Though if you aren't good enough to get a spot on KHL or VHL roster and unwilling to play at third tier at such age, maybe you should be doing something else than playing hockey?

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04-02-2012, 05:57 PM
  #178
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Vorky, he is blaming the MHL for glorifying little things and success into something bigger that it's not. He raises certain issues that are commonly bypassed the the MHL's leadership, while everyone, who follows hockey even a little bit knows about them. He does have a personal issue with the MHL though, so a little bitter, yes.

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04-03-2012, 06:10 AM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Vorky, he is blaming the MHL for glorifying little things and success into something bigger that it's not. He raises certain issues that are commonly bypassed the the MHL's leadership, while everyone, who follows hockey even a little bit knows about them. He does have a personal issue with the MHL though, so a little bitter, yes.
fine. ... blaming the MHL for glorifying little things... Does he thin that people in MHL dont not know about problems in kids hockey, corruption in NT etc? Why was created all stars for U18? MHL to have more job? or to give chance guys who are ignored by NT coach? btw Ivanyuzhenkov did not play here http://mhl.khl.ru/report/204/?idgame=33804
Why was Red Stars U18 created?

I agree that participation in Asian tourney this summer is not so important. The same about slovak/czech MHL team. Look, Vlci relegetes maybe, not good enough to play MHL (but it is problem among HC LEV organisation). I can not agree with Osadchenko about blaming MHL for WCJC (CHL team to join). It is a big success to lure CHL club to join a tourney. We all know how CHL has acted for years - no players at WC U18 if club play Memorial cup play offs, luring best europeans. CHL does not want to cooperate with Europeans in my eyes if does not have benefits, so one way deals. Yes, it is not Memorial champ but still better than Jr A. It is a big success of european jr hockey to have CHL at tourney if CHL participation will continue in future. Swedes sent last year Malmo, quarterfinalist. This year it should be champions, we will see. Tourney does not have history and prestige. It is important to get it. Tourney needs support from national federations and IIHF. This year it will be IIHF official tourney. Is it not a success? After one year of existence? What does osadchenko think?

I dont know how russians, americans, canadians etc look at this tourney. I have any info from you guys, fans but not federation´s officials. At least in Slovakia it is understood as a big step in developing of euro jr hockey cooperation. Euro jr hockey needs it. Only one thing I dont like about tourney is slovak/czech participant - club of MHL (last year Vlci, this Karlovy Vary from czech rep). I prefer slovak jr champ to join (or at least club which will be chosen by slovak nt federation not by MHL). On the other hand I see why MHL invites these clubs (Vlci, Vary) - they think that slovak MHL is a best jr club in country as HK Riga or so. IMO it can be say about latvian/belorussian juniors but not slovaks (corect me if wrong). Especially about current Vlci´s roster. Second problem is slovak national federation.. not interesting at all.
If I were Osanchenko I would blame MHL for NT teams of Denmark, Norway. On the other hand I know why MHL invited them. But blaming MHL for joining CHL club? I dont think that MHL is gloryfing it. I read many Efimov´s articles where he complaints about Memorial champ not to join.

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04-03-2012, 08:51 AM
  #180
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Vorky, you have either a logic flaw, or poor understanding of the article, for the journalist, who was told - that if u don't wright about us positively you won't be published or allowed near the league, his article is not all that bad, and don't get me wrong - I am no Osadchenko fan at all.

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04-03-2012, 09:32 AM
  #181
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So, he wanted to work with/for MHL in past, but did not agree to write only possitive articles? It is understandable, why should MHL want to blame itself?

He has problem with age limits in MHL as I undertand it. Right?
Quote:
"В чём разница между тем, что в ОХЛ играют Телегин и Шайфли, а в МХЛ – Кугрышев и Печурский?", - спросите вы. Существенная. И заключается она в том, что первые двое на два года младше, а игроков 90-го года в CHL просто нет. Более того, игроков 91-го в заявке каждой команды может быть не больше трёх. Чувствуете разницу?
Is it really so big problem to allow 90born to play MHL? Russia did not have junior league all history. Developing system in Russia is not the same as in Canada. Someone wrote at HFB (hoping) that russian kids need more time to develop. Maybe it is a reason to have such junior league in Russia. Country needs to have better players. You need to focus for youngest, born 1995. Do you think that some of them are ignored this year? I think that all star players born 1995 play MHL not kid leagues. Right? It is better for 1995ers to play against elder opponents than younger according to my opinion. Russian needs U16-U18 league but it is not problem of MHL but of FHR.

Quote:
Однако официальному представлению этой команды от МХЛ нельзя не улыбнуться.

Вот отрывок из официального пресс-релиза МХЛ касательно того, что в Омск приедет "Садбери".

"Во время встречи с управляющим директором МХЛ Дмитрием Ефимовым президент федерации хоккея Канады Боб Николсон заявил, что "кленовые листья" собираются отправить в Омск одну из сильнейших команд. Похоже, североамериканцы свое обещание сдержали. Состав "волков" выглядит довольно грозно. А если еще учесть и тот факт, что в Sudbury выступает российский легионер Андрей Кучин".
and his oppinion
Quote:
учина же в Омске не будет 100%, поскольку он 91-го года рождения.
does statement of MHL say that Kuchin will play in Omsk? I dont think so. It only says that Kuchin play for Wolves this season. That all. Right?

Quote:
Интересная вообще формулировка для молодёжного хоккея – "одна из сильнейших команд".
what is problem with it? MHL just says Wolves is ONE of best jr. club in Canada, NOT best. Is not it true? Wolves plays OHL, someone says it is best of CHL leagues. CHL is best jr league in Canada. I see no problem. Yes, roster has been changed every season. The same in MHL, Sweden, Slovakia, Finland.

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04-03-2012, 10:22 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozo View Post
First off, what's wrong with the RHL? It's still a paycheck.

Though if you aren't good enough to get a spot on KHL or VHL roster and unwilling to play at third tier at such age, maybe you should be doing something else than playing hockey?
First, when RHL opens up at least a decent website with all their documents uploaded there, then we can talk. Now it's just a Russia3 league with no identity and coverage.

And second, as you know not all KHL teams have VHL farms, so it's impossible for them to send their youth anywhere except MHL (or press-box, heh). Filatov & Kugryshev can easily play in VHL.

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04-03-2012, 10:39 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helpoing View Post
First, when RHL opens up at least a decent website with all their documents uploaded there, then we can talk. Now it's just a Russia3 league with no identity and coverage.

And second, as you know not all KHL teams have VHL farms, so it's impossible for them to send their youth anywhere except MHL (or press-box, heh). Filatov & Kugryshev can easily play in VHL.
in this aspect I agree with you fully.

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Old
04-11-2012, 06:35 AM
  #184
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SuperElit champions Linköping will participate from Sweden as long as the costs won't be too big.

They've been informed that swehish federation possibly pays for the travel costs and the russian federation/hosts pays for pretty much everything once in Russia.

Link in swedish:
http://lhcidag.se/hagesund-lhc-j20-t...storturnering/

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04-15-2012, 04:46 AM
  #185
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great news IMO

HIFK Helsinki and Linköping HC will play in 2nd edition of tourney. Both are reigning jr. champions of respective country.

Quote:
They've been informed that swehish federation possibly pays for the travel costs and the russian federation/hosts pays for pretty much everything once in Russia.
yes, clubs have to pay travel costs to Moscow from their country. The rest is payed by MHL and sponsors.

EDIT:
to sum up...

Junior Club World Cup 2012
RUS - Omskie Yastreby (MHL)
CAN - Sudbury Wolves (OHL)
USA -
SWE - Linköpings HC (J20 SuperElit)
FIN - HIFK Helsinky (Nuorten SM-liiga)
CZE - Energia Karlove Vary
DAN - select
NOR - select
BLR - Dinamo Shinnik (MHL)
LAT - HK Riga (MHL)

EDIT:
participant of Latvia, Belarus

EDIT 2:
participant of Russia

EDIT 3:
SVK - not join
SUI - not join


Last edited by vorky: 05-04-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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04-16-2012, 03:49 AM
  #186
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owner of Sudbury Wolves, Mark Burgess, visited city of Omsk to check accomodation, arenas etc

http://mhl.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=136914


Last edited by vorky: 04-16-2012 at 08:16 AM.
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04-16-2012, 05:21 AM
  #187
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groups??

Group A: USA, RUS, SVK, SUI, BLR, NOR
Group B: CAN, SWE, CR, FIN, LAT, DAN

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04-17-2012, 02:00 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
groups??

Group A: USA, RUS, SVK, SUI, BLR, NOR
Group B: CAN, SWE, CR, FIN, LAT, DAN
Nice find.

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04-17-2012, 05:14 AM
  #189
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I love Osadchenko's hockey videos with Steve Dangle, "Joining the Rush" etc. and believe you've seen them but don't agree with him as concerns MHL too. I agree with you, vorky- it's good that some 90 born players are allowed in MHL because some IMHO still really need that. And furthermore it increases the level of play in the league and young guys don't have to play in a competition where they put up 100 and more points per season and then can be praised and called ''stars''... This season there were 58 players born in 1995 in MHL and the season before only 42 of 1994 borns, and their role increased in MHL too. Even if we look at U18 players their role increased in MHL this year if compared to last year so I think in future we'll see even more coaches introducing more young players in the league.

Osadchenko, I guess, cited bringing Filatov to MHL in one place as a thing that's wrong with the league - that 1990 players are not motivated enough so they don't need to be there. At the same time his other friend Ainārs Podziņš who's born 1992 was also sent to MHL at the end of season, palyed in the same fashion as Filatov and was rightly put in the 4th line, so maybe it's the problem with Andrei's friends not giving extra effort or considering MHL "below their level'' as there are plenty of 1990 guys who give all their best playing in MHL.

There are all the necessary rules and regulations in place for MHL not to become a league for 22 years old players and I don't see a problem with the league at the moment. Yeah, a league for 16-18 year olds could be a good addition but at the moment 1995 guys (where it's possible, for example in Riga) who are not yet ready for MHL can play in MHL B....

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04-17-2012, 06:09 AM
  #190
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well, Omsk who's about to play RA in the MHL finals has about 11 players born 90-91 - if you ask me - I think it's wrong.

How come all of you misinterpret Osadchenko, when he's clearly saying that the players who already made it past the MHL (be it NHL, VHL, KHL, AHL or FUHL...) shouldn't be allowed to play in the play offs even if their age so permits. The goal of the MHL is to bring new names into hockey, not to win Kharlamov Cup and so to speak retire.

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04-17-2012, 06:50 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
well, Omsk who's about to play RA in the MHL finals has about 11 players born 90-91 - if you ask me - I think it's wrong.

How come all of you misinterpret Osadchenko, when he's clearly saying that the players who already made it past the MHL (be it NHL, VHL, KHL, AHL or FUHL...) shouldn't be allowed to play in the play offs even if their age so permits. The goal of the MHL is to bring new names into hockey, not to win Kharlamov Cup and so to speak retire.
I see you. Onthe other hand lets see at reality. Kharlamov Cup is played in periond when Worlds U18 (and pre-camps) takes place. Look at D-men of Red Army, forward Kulyomin has to play here! Why? some injuries + Zadorov and Lisov play for NT. Imagine Tolchinski, Timirev or others would play for NT. Do you want to play MHL play-offs with 12-15 guys or guy which are not good enough? And of course, your 90,91ers are on vacation.
If a young player (born 1993,4,5) is good enough, he will play MHL play-offs.
Look at Novokuzneck juniors, NT coaches took its leaders - Zhafyarov and Slepyshev. Btw, it affected Kunya games agains Omsk Hawks.
If NT coaches used the same logic as canadians (ignoring guys playing play-offs), I would agree with Osadchenko´s opinion. Btw I dont like how canadians make NT rosters for U18. Osadchenko should realise that russian development is not the same as canadians.

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04-17-2012, 01:31 PM
  #192
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Start playoffs two weeks earlier, while not running in the same time as KHL/VHL playoffs will only increase the exposure of the league and U18 championship won't "steal" the best talant.

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04-17-2012, 01:39 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
Start playoffs two weeks earlier, while not running in the same time as KHL/VHL playoffs will only increase the exposure of the league and U18 championship won't "steal" the best talant.
I can support this idea if format of MHL play-offs changes. You know, it is too early to finish regular season in february. What will do teams which dont make play-offs? If the relegation round like this season, club would play more games each other. If more teams make play-offs, I would agree with sooner finish of regular season. How should be format changed? I dont know..

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04-17-2012, 05:24 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I see you. Onthe other hand lets see at reality. Kharlamov Cup is played in periond when Worlds U18 (and pre-camps) takes place. Look at D-men of Red Army, forward Kulyomin has to play here! Why? some injuries + Zadorov and Lisov play for NT. Imagine Tolchinski, Timirev or others would play for NT. Do you want to play MHL play-offs with 12-15 guys or guy which are not good enough? And of course, your 90,91ers are on vacation.
If a young player (born 1993,4,5) is good enough, he will play MHL play-offs.
Look at Novokuzneck juniors, NT coaches took its leaders - Zhafyarov and Slepyshev. Btw, it affected Kunya games agains Omsk Hawks.
If NT coaches used the same logic as canadians (ignoring guys playing play-offs), I would agree with Osadchenko´s opinion. Btw I dont like how canadians make NT rosters for U18. Osadchenko should realise that russian development is not the same as canadians.
you are confusing me a little bit, not sure what you are trying to say, but my POV is:
1) don't take players for NT while they are in the tournament
2) build the team from available players only who are out of PO
3) don't change the MHL PO schedule to accommodate such a joke of a tournament like U18 WJC
4) no 22 year olds in the MHL (if by 22 u are not good enough to make the KHL/VHL/RHL/OCB/ and not willing to try out in Ukraine or Kaz - you should be doing something else other than playing hockey)
5) limit number of 21 yo to 5 players per team tops
6) if a player played 10 plus games in the KHL averaging more than 10 minutes per game - he can't play in the MHL (if he was just a cal up to accommodate the FHR requirement and played 2-3 shifts or dressed but didn't play - don't count that as a game)
7) some teams have organizations in MHL-A and MHL-B - the flow of players between the teams must be somehowe limited to avoid cases like the MHL-A is out of the PO, and send 1/2 the roster to the MHL-B team.

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04-17-2012, 06:22 PM
  #195
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I agree with you. Especially argument nr.6 is fair.

Quote:
3) don't change the MHL PO schedule to accommodate such a joke of a tournament like U18 WJC
I would say FHR does not like this idea And it is a problem. All changed to KHL rules due to OG in Sochi.. rule of dressing 2 guys under 21 is not good. I know young guys should play KHL but it does not work like that.

Quote:
4) no 22 year olds in the MHL (if by 22 u are not good enough to make the KHL/VHL/RHL/OCB/ and not willing to try out in Ukraine or Kaz - you should be doing something else other than playing hockey)
I dont know. Some 90res play MHL this season because their club does not have VHL affiliate (Avangard, CSKA, Amur etc). Look at Ak Bars or SY Ufa. Clubs have VHL affiliate, MHL eligible guys play here instead of MHL.

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04-18-2012, 06:43 AM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I agree with you. Especially argument nr.6 is fair.


I would say FHR does not like this idea And it is a problem. All changed to KHL rules due to OG in Sochi.. rule of dressing 2 guys under 21 is not good. I know young guys should play KHL but it does not work like that.
One thing is Olympics - other U18, just a showcase for scouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont know. Some 90res play MHL this season because their club does not have VHL affiliate (Avangard, CSKA, Amur etc). Look at Ak Bars or SY Ufa. Clubs have VHL affiliate, MHL eligible guys play here instead of MHL.
Easily resolved by structuring a contract of an MHL player with the team option as the player turns 22. If a team needs him - he's signed for another year to play KHL/VHL (yes teams MUST have farm clubs, even if it's outside of the KHL/VHL/RHL system - see Avangard), if the team deems the guy useless - he's released.

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04-18-2012, 07:10 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Easily resolved by structuring a contract of an MHL player with the team option as the player turns 22. If a team needs him - he's signed for another year to play KHL/VHL (yes teams MUST have farm clubs, even if it's outside of the KHL/VHL/RHL system - see Avangard), if the team deems the guy useless - he's released.
it works like this. This guy as example, he turned 22 yo in april, he wont play MHL next season. Another guy , he turns 22 next november, but he wont play MHL next season.
Year of birth is important for KHL, MHL rules not date. I am sure it wont be changed. It is not like all 90ers turned 22 during season. If you are 22, you will not play MHL next season for sure. Only guys, who were born january-april, can play MHL as 22 yo.

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04-18-2012, 07:49 AM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
it works like this. This guy as example, he turned 22 yo in april, he wont play MHL next season. Another guy , he turns 22 next november, but he wont play MHL next season.
Year of birth is important for KHL, MHL rules not date. I am sure it wont be changed. It is not like all 90ers turned 22 during season. If you are 22, you will not play MHL next season for sure. Only guys, who were born january-april, can play MHL as 22 yo.
you are just too funny, neat-picking everywhere.

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04-18-2012, 10:18 AM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
I love Osadchenko's hockey videos with Steve Dangle, "Joining the Rush" etc. and believe you've seen them but don't agree with him as concerns MHL too. I agree with you, vorky- it's good that some 90 born players are allowed in MHL because some IMHO still really need that. And furthermore it increases the level of play in the league and young guys don't have to play in a competition where they put up 100 and more points per season and then can be praised and called ''stars''... This season there were 58 players born in 1995 in MHL and the season before only 42 of 1994 borns, and their role increased in MHL too. Even if we look at U18 players their role increased in MHL this year if compared to last year so I think in future we'll see even more coaches introducing more young players in the league.

Osadchenko, I guess, cited bringing Filatov to MHL in one place as a thing that's wrong with the league - that 1990 players are not motivated enough so they don't need to be there. At the same time his other friend Ainārs Podziņš who's born 1992 was also sent to MHL at the end of season, palyed in the same fashion as Filatov and was rightly put in the 4th line, so maybe it's the problem with Andrei's friends not giving extra effort or considering MHL "below their level'' as there are plenty of 1990 guys who give all their best playing in MHL.

There are all the necessary rules and regulations in place for MHL not to become a league for 22 years old players and I don't see a problem with the league at the moment. Yeah, a league for 16-18 year olds could be a good addition but at the moment 1995 guys (where it's possible, for example in Riga) who are not yet ready for MHL can play in MHL B....
I agree. Russia has been most successful when it has built its own model, not blindly following the model of Canada, or some other version. Vorky's point about Russia not having a junior league of any value previously is well taken. You can see the repercussions of that, for example, in this year's U18 tournament, where Russia has a number of talented players, but as a team, they don't seem to know how to compete. Having '90 born players who still have a chance to play in the KHL probably does contribute to the overall competitive level of the league, which in turn forces younger player to work harder to develop up to a higher level.

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04-18-2012, 10:27 AM
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Yakushev72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
you are confusing me a little bit, not sure what you are trying to say, but my POV is:
1) don't take players for NT while they are in the tournament
2) build the team from available players only who are out of PO
3) don't change the MHL PO schedule to accommodate such a joke of a tournament like U18 WJC
4) no 22 year olds in the MHL (if by 22 u are not good enough to make the KHL/VHL/RHL/OCB/ and not willing to try out in Ukraine or Kaz - you should be doing something else other than playing hockey)
5) limit number of 21 yo to 5 players per team tops
6) if a player played 10 plus games in the KHL averaging more than 10 minutes per game - he can't play in the MHL (if he was just a cal up to accommodate the FHR requirement and played 2-3 shifts or dressed but didn't play - don't count that as a game)
7) some teams have organizations in MHL-A and MHL-B - the flow of players between the teams must be somehowe limited to avoid cases like the MHL-A is out of the PO, and send 1/2 the roster to the MHL-B team.
In regard to No.5, I agree that that is a necessary provision, but I question how many KHL franchises will be willing to sacrifice youth development to keep 10 or 15 21-year olds around, most of whom are marginal at best, and who will be pushed out by the next wave of young talent hopefully developed by the KHL. I believe that that issue won't be a factor once the MHL builds some momentum.

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