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Bill Daly's comment on the Atlanta Thrashers

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Old
11-28-2010, 02:02 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Using Detroit as an example, they have it backwards with the "alleged" demographics as far as following and location. The NHL team is in downtown Detroit, where the majority of fans drive in from the burbs and Ontario. Most fans will drive 30-60 minutes on average to get to the Joe. The NBA team is a pretty good hike from core fan base (presuming that's Detroit proper and immediate surroundings), up in Auburn Hills-- which is fairly fair.

Typically arena location seems to be favored for the downtown or center of the region it serves. I guess I don't feel that this is the strongest argument. There are traffic issues for numerous markets (Chicago, LA, NYC, Boston, Philly, TO, etc.), but arenas aren't exactly portable so that one can follow around shifting demographics.
A 30-60 minute drive from the areas I was talking about up 400 and north on 85 would only happen on days with no traffic, like a saturday or sunday. Its more like an hour and a half to two hours on a weekday. Hell, it can take an hour to get from exit 7 on 400 to 85, let alone the other hour getting to Phillips from there. It really is that bad, even if you live in town and try to drive.

All of the other markets you mentioned are traditional hockey markets, outside of LA. Atlanta obviously isn't. That being said, some of those markets have also had problems with attendance at certain points due to bad ownership and a poor on ice product, most recently Chicago. Like I said, the arena being downtown serves one team well and the other not so well. A hockey only arena wouldn't be where Phillips is, trust me. However, its a pretty good location for the Hawks and the owners are basketball guys for the most part, so there you have it.

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Old
11-28-2010, 02:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Frankly, there are very few Caucasians that live within three miles of the arena, and those that do in Midtown make up one of the biggest gay neighborhoods in the US. Just one block west of the arena is a big ghetto of very low density. Just about the worst area of the city.

Now, my next door neighbors are gay and are long time STH for the Thrashers, but we don't live in Midtown.
Ummm so Urbanite Blacks and Gays don't like hockey.... Suburbanite blacks don't like hockey... Gay suburbanites are just tickled pink by hockey.

Wow... Atlanta has a unique approach to marketing.

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Old
11-28-2010, 03:17 PM
  #53
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In defence of Atlanta....they haven't exactly had very stellar teams for the past 10 seasons;


Hard to get excited for a team that has underperformed for a decade and made the playoffs once.

It's easy to say that all NHL hockey is worth watching. After the Jets left, my 1st NHL game was in 98' in Anaheim between the Ducks and Flames. Let's just say that watching Sandy McCarthy glide around the The Pond was painful.

That being said for past 3 season, I've been driving about 1.5 hrs (each way) to get to Joe Louis Arena to see the Wings. (of course good team vs. bad).

However, looking at Phoenix.......

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11-28-2010, 03:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
Atlanta is never going to be a "good" hockey market, and I do not think any Thashers fans are implying they will be.

I would put the Thrashers in a tier with the following teams: Anaheim, New Jersey, Dallas, Colorado, Tampa, Nashville, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, St. Louis.

Teams that will suffer in attendance when their is a poor product on the ice. Will have good attendance when there is a good product on the ice. Could have great attendance during long streaks of success, could have very poor attendance during long streaks of failure.

You have teams like that in every single pro sport, teams that will have poor attendance if you put a garbage product out year after year. I do not understand why people expect every US market to be like Toronto or Montreal. Heck, even Canadian teams have had attendance issues when they struggled, not to the extent of US markets....but the idea that any market in Canada will sell out no matter what has no basis in reality.
Of the teams in the "tier" that you listed: New Jersey, Carolina, Anaheim, Colorado, Nashville, and St. Louis are more than 10% above Atlanta in attendance for this season.

The way I see it: (this is so far, this season, based on %, not actual number)

Lowest tier: Columbus, NYI, Atlanta, Phoenix
Just above: Dallas, Tampa, Florida
Above them: Colorado, Carolina, Anaheim, Nashville
Above them: Jersey, St. Louis, Minnesota
Above them: Edmonton, Buffalo, Calgary, LA, Washington
Above them: San Jose, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Philly, Boston
Elite tier: NYR, Ottawa, Detroit, Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago

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Old
11-28-2010, 03:54 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton the Great View Post
Of the teams in the "tier" that you listed: New Jersey, Carolina, Anaheim, Colorado, Nashville, and St. Louis are more than 10% above Atlanta in attendance for this season.

The way I see it: (this is so far, this season, based on %, not actual number)

Lowest tier: Columbus, NYI, Atlanta, Phoenix
Just above: Dallas, Tampa, Florida
Above them: Colorado, Carolina, Anaheim, Nashville
Above them: Jersey, St. Louis, Minnesota
Above them: Edmonton, Buffalo, Calgary, LA, Washington
Above them: San Jose, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Philly, Boston
Elite tier: NYR, Ottawa, Detroit, Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago
Wow, Ottawa is in the elite tier now with Montreal and Philly behind them. Yet there is a whole thread here with ongoing discussion of the problems with Ottawa's attendance. Only at the BOH boards.

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11-28-2010, 04:11 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton the Great View Post
Of the teams in the "tier" that you listed: New Jersey, Carolina, Anaheim, Colorado, Nashville, and St. Louis are more than 10% above Atlanta in attendance for this season.
1 season out of 10 in the playoffs, what tier would those teams be in right now?

Those teams are in a very different place from a winning perspective than Atlanta, in fact I think 4 of them have won the Cup in the last 10 seasons. All have a good track record of making the playoffs.

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11-28-2010, 04:28 PM
  #57
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Puck Daddy has a blog on the story:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...urn=nhl-289739

GHOST

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Old
11-28-2010, 04:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
IIRC, a section of the arena didn't allow complete view of the rink, possibly from one end. So naturally people wouldn't sit there much.
As would any arena **built for basketball**.

The NHL rink is wider and longer than basketball floor.

I was at the AWA for a Phoenix game, in the (middle) upper deck (~10 rows up); couldn't see the closest 3rd of the ice due to angle of upper deck edge. AIUI, the ends also in the upper decks had restricted view of the closest net.


Phillips, which I have also been to, is set up to accommodate both hockey and basketball -- no obstructed views.

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11-28-2010, 04:39 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton the Great View Post
Of the teams in the "tier" that you listed: New Jersey, Carolina, Anaheim, Colorado, Nashville, and St. Louis are more than 10% above Atlanta in attendance for this season.

The way I see it: (this is so far, this season, based on %, not actual number)

Lowest tier: Columbus, NYI, Atlanta, Phoenix
Just above: Dallas, Tampa, Florida
Above them: Colorado, Carolina, Anaheim, Nashville
Above them: Jersey, St. Louis, Buffalo
Above them: Edmonton, Ottawa, Calgary, LA, Washington
Above them: San Jose, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Philly, Boston
Elite tier: NYR, Minnesota, Detroit, Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago
tweaked it a bit.
that would be my list at the moment.

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11-28-2010, 05:35 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton the Great View Post
Of the teams in the "tier" that you listed: New Jersey, Carolina, Anaheim, Colorado, Nashville, and St. Louis are more than 10% above Atlanta in attendance for this season.

The way I see it: (this is so far, this season, based on %, not actual number)

Lowest tier: Columbus, NYI, Atlanta, Phoenix
Just above: Dallas, Tampa, Florida
Above them: Colorado, Carolina, Anaheim, Nashville
Above them: Jersey, St. Louis, Minnesota
Above them: Edmonton, Buffalo, Calgary, LA, Washington
Above them: San Jose, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Philly, Boston
Elite tier: NYR, Ottawa, Detroit, Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago
How can Edmonton be third tier when they sell out every game?

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Old
11-28-2010, 05:37 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
See: Avalanche, Colorado: 2009-2010 Season.
See: Avalanche, Colorado: season ticket prices.

Let us know when Thrashers season ticket prices are even close to ours.

A few example locations:

My upper-level center seats: You'd have to raise Thrashers' prices by 35% to match ours.
The "cheap" seats at the top of those same upper sections: You'd have to raise Thrashers' prices by 122% to match ours.
A "cheap" lower level seat (i.e., top of the attack-once end): You'd have to raise Thrashers' prices by 270% to match ours.

Again (and again, and again, it seems)... attendance cannot be viewed in a vacuum. Price point and relative population are huge influences.

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11-28-2010, 06:01 PM
  #62
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Along with Atlanta, Columbus has a dedicated population considering they've made the playoffs only once.


Now if you subscribe to the winning translates to fan loyalty, if these teams had 3-5 years in a row of winning, and then following same, fan #'s fell off if they started losing, I could see people saying they aren't good hockey markets.

The question I would ask is;

1) How long are teams to be given to develop a dedicated fan base?

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11-28-2010, 06:46 PM
  #63
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouv...001:_Vancouver

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11-28-2010, 06:56 PM
  #64
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Interesting thread I found. The Thrashers are doing very well this year and they're averaging less than last year at the point in the year.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/t....aspx?team=147

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Old
11-28-2010, 07:16 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
Interesting thread I found. The Thrashers are doing very well this year and they're averaging less than last year at the point in the year.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/t....aspx?team=147
That's a good site. I've always used ESPN but I like how the site you link gives you a game by game breakdown for the season.

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Old
11-28-2010, 08:26 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by btn View Post
Atlanta is never going to be a "good" hockey market, and I do not think any Thashers fans are implying they will be.

I would put the Thrashers in a tier with the following teams: Anaheim, New Jersey, Dallas, Colorado, Tampa, Nashville, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, St. Louis.

Teams that will suffer in attendance when their is a poor product on the ice. Will have good attendance when there is a good product on the ice. Could have great attendance during long streaks of success, could have very poor attendance during long streaks of failure.

You have teams like that in every single pro sport, teams that will have poor attendance if you put a garbage product out year after year. I do not understand why people expect every US market to be like Toronto or Montreal. Heck, even Canadian teams have had attendance issues when they struggled, not to the extent of US markets....but the idea that any market in Canada will sell out no matter what has no basis in reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
See: Avalanche, Colorado: 2009-2010 Season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Totally agree. And I think even the casual sports fan in Atlanta would embrace a winning team with open arms.. it's no surprise that the Thrashers had their best attendance in the 2006-07 season when they won the division and made the playoffs for the first time in franchise history.

I guess Pittsburgh and Chicago are bad hockey markets too. Both teams had awful attendance in the early 2000s when they were struggling. Once they started winning, their attendance skyrocketed. Chicago went from being second to last in attendance in 2006-07 to being first in attendance the past few seasons. Winning goes a long way for many franchises. There are probably only a handful of hockey markets in the league that would support their team in the same manner regardless if they were winning or losing.
Exactly. Poor teams and poor ownership will alienate ANY market, even in canada, given enough time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
This is Daly's fact not mine:

You make good points when you point to the fact that the Atlanta Braves make the playoffs 13 consecutive years in baseball, where it is a little more difficult to make the playoffs. And they are having difficulty selling out their home playoff games, which, you would think in most markets is unheard of. So, Atlanta has proven to be a very difficult market.
That is his opinion, not a fact.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WpgMikos View Post
Along with Atlanta, Columbus has a dedicated population considering they've made the playoffs only once.


Now if you subscribe to the winning translates to fan loyalty, if these teams had 3-5 years in a row of winning, and then following same, fan #'s fell off if they started losing, I could see people saying they aren't good hockey markets.

The question I would ask is;

1) How long are teams to be given to develop a dedicated fan base?
Apparently as long as the NHL deems necessary and there is an owner willing to foot the bill for any losses. We also do not know if Atlanta is even losing money. The Wirtzes made money when they were drawing only 13k per game because they own half the arena and got revenue from all the events held at the arena as well as the parking.

This is not about attendance, as with any business, it is about profits and losses.

If an NHL team can make money putting 8,000 people in the arena each night or the owner is willing to pay for the losses, who cares? I imagine the NHLPA might but how much would a team like that really effect the revenues used to calculate the cap? Probably not much.

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Old
11-28-2010, 09:02 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by CC Chiefs View Post
Interesting thread I found. The Thrashers are doing very well this year and they're averaging less than last year at the point in the year.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/t....aspx?team=147
That is one sucky (is that a word?) attendence.

Who were the Thrashers playing against in Game 2 and 5?

Those numbers are probably higher than the actual amount of people in the arena which makes it even worse.

Only 4 games above 13,000. WOW!!!

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Old
11-28-2010, 09:11 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by #11_THEBEST! View Post
That is one sucky (is that a word?) attendence.

Who were the Thrashers playing against in Game 2 and 5?

Those numbers are probably higher than the actual amount of people in the arena which makes it even worse.

Only 4 games above 13,000. WOW!!!

Does that bring back memories of Edmonton no so long ago?

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Old
11-28-2010, 09:40 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by copernicanrevolution View Post
If they wanted to, they could get on a train (like plenty of other people do) and have it let them off about 20 yards from the entrance to the arena. Of course, that isn't as convenient as it should be because they kept MARTA out of their neighborhood due to some hilarious fantasy about dudes stealing their plasma TV and taking it on the train.
the fact that you just suggested marta was anything more than the most inefficient and down right jack **** run mass "transit" system in the U.S. destroys any credibility you have. i'm sorry, it just does.

sincerely, someone who has had the misfortune of using marta in their lifetime.

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11-28-2010, 09:47 PM
  #70
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So by that logic its not a good hockey market.A good market will support the team good or bad a so so market will support the team only when the team is winning.
So Chicago and Washington are bad markets?

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11-28-2010, 09:48 PM
  #71
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Thrashers attendance is awful because the franchise has been a joke for its entire history. Location plays a factor in converting hockey fans, but sunbelt teams have succeeded in the past. What the Thrashers need is some legitimacy... a decent playoff run will go a long way.

Also, the location of Philips Arena is fine. There's ample parking and a MARTA station right outside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Frankly, there are very few Caucasians that live within three miles of the arena, and those that do in Midtown make up one of the biggest gay neighborhoods in the US. Just one block west of the arena is a big ghetto of very low density. Just about the worst area of the city.

Now, my next door neighbors are gay and are long time STH for the Thrashers, but we don't live in Midtown. The guys that live in midtown are very anti-sports, let's just say. It's not that they're gay, it's that they're ultra-liberal urban elitists who think sports are for neanderthals.

The ECHL team in the market is keeping Thrashers attendance suppressed by at least 2-3k a night on average. These people would be going to the NHL games otherwise. They even wear their customized Thrashers jerseys to the ECHL games!
This is one of the stupidest posts I've seen on HF.


Last edited by Norm MacDonald: 11-28-2010 at 10:16 PM.
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Old
11-28-2010, 10:23 PM
  #72
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Fact is, the Atlanta owners stink. This is the SECOND sunday game this month where they scheduled an overlap with the Falcons playing next door. Stupid. Want to grow a market? Don't do this crap. They have no attention to detail.
You really cannot pin this on the owners. Pin the bulk of the blame on the guys in the scheduling department of the NHL. All that the Thrashers have to do with the schedule is to submit to the league all available dates at Philips Arena during the months that the NHL season runs through. The schedule makers don't take into account neighboring events that may conflict with the game when they put out the schedule. Even if the game today had been a 7 PM game, there still would have been some overlap in terms of parking.

I live on the Southside of Atlanta and for me, the arena is ideally located. I take I-75 into Atlanta, get off at Central Avenue and can be at one of the parking decks within 5-10 minutes of getting off of I-75.

Back in the mid 90s when the plans to replace the Omni first started, one site that was proposed was off of I-75 in the Cumberland Mall/Galleria area. The site was the location of the former reservations center for Eastern Air Lines and had been empty since the airline went under in 1991. At one point in the Fall of 1996, it looked like the arena in Cobb County was going to be a go as the Hawks (and Turner Broadcasting) actually walked away from discussions with the City of Atlanta on a new arena (which at the time was going to be built in "The Gulch" across from the Omni/CNN Center Complex). They eventually reached a deal, but built it on the site of the Omni instead of across the street. The site of the proposed arena eventually became the site of the Cobb Energy Performing Arts Centre. In some respects, had the Hawks moved to an arena in Cobb County, you wouldn't have a lot of the development that has occurred in the area as well as along the Marietta Street corridor. Philips Arena, coupled with Centennial Olympic Park, provided the spark to revitalize that area of Downtown, something that the Olympics alone could not do.

One thing that the Arena At Gwinnett Center has going for it is free parking that has the perception of safety. If there's one issue with parking for a game at Philips Arena, it's the cost. Some of the lots in the area just don't feel safe and it's not worth having your car broken into or stolen just to save a few bucks. Look at some of the "gypsy" lots around the Georgia Dome and Turner Field. Would you want to park in some of those just to save a few bucks, especially with ParkAtlanta targeting those illegally parked on the streets around the Georgia Dome?

We've been hearing on and off for most of this year of some prospective new owner who wants to keep the Thrashers here and the current ownership continues to deny such rumors and publicly say that they're looking for additional investors in ASG and not looking to sell assets. Unfortunately, I don't think Atlanta Spirit Group owning both the Hawks and Thrashers is going to be a long-term thing, especially in light of the Koncakesque contract they signed Joe Johnson to in the off-season. Something's got to give money-wise, and they may have to sell off the Thrashers in order to keep the Hawks. Any deal to sell the Thrashers will definitely include some sort of clause that locks the Thrashers into a long-term contract at Philips Arena. Even with 10,000 fans in attendance, that's better than have a dark arena.

The Arena At Gwinnett Center was probably one of the worst things to happen to Philips Arena. There's a lot of acts that would have played Philips that now play up in Gwinnett and that cuts into the operating revenues at Philips.

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11-28-2010, 10:38 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Rhodes 81 View Post
the fact that you just suggested marta was anything more than the most inefficient and down right jack **** run mass "transit" system in the U.S. destroys any credibility you have. i'm sorry, it just does.

sincerely, someone who has had the misfortune of using marta in their lifetime.
Your argument is..crap. Let me help you find the flaw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

MARTA certainly has a number of problems. Lack of state funding, terrible administration, bizarre rules about how funding can be used, etc.

However, MARTA is FANTASTIC for going to Thrashers games. You get on the train. It lets you off right at the arena. You leave on a train. It takes you to a station. You either walk home (if you live in the city) or you drive home (if you live in the suburbs). I've been doing it for years. What's the problem?

Notice that I'm not advocating anyone use the bus system. I have a few friends that ride it every day and are generally happy with it, but I stick to the trains.

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11-28-2010, 10:42 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by copernicanrevolution View Post
Your argument is..crap. Let me help you find the flaw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

MARTA certainly has a number of problems. Lack of state funding, terrible administration, bizarre rules about how funding can be used, etc.

However, MARTA is FANTASTIC for going to Thrashers games. You get on the train. It lets you off right at the arena. You leave on a train. It takes you to a station. You either walk home (if you live in the city) or you drive home (if you live in the suburbs). I've been doing it for years. What's the problem?

Notice that I'm not advocating anyone use the bus system. I have a few friends that ride it every day and are generally happy with it, but I stick to the trains.
fair enough. i've never actually used marta to go to a game, but every experience i've ever had with it has just been god awful, and the same goes for most people i know.

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Old
11-28-2010, 10:56 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Rhodes 81 View Post
fair enough. i've never actually used marta to go to a game, but every experience i've ever had with it has just been god awful, and the same goes for most people i know.
Does MARTA still have the unrepeatable nickname it had 20 years ago?

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