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Old
11-29-2010, 12:36 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
5 year 20 million would sound about right
What lol

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11-29-2010, 01:52 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
He looks slow and old imo -- there's still 60 games left in the season.
He doesn't to me. He looks more like a solid reliable top D to me, and that's what he's been for us so far. One thing's for sure, he doesn't look any older or slower than Gill.

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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Agree. However, as you are well aware, there could be a face off in our zone. Under this circumstance, I rather have Gill over Hamrlik. And these situations are the most crucial and occur plenty enough during a season. Add to that the Penalty kill and Gill is used in very key situations that greatly effect the outcome of the game. Good teams have the weapons that can shut down the opponents.
I wouldn't rather have Gill. I fully trust Hammer just as much as I do with pretty much every other D we have and the reason for that is because we play a full team defense. The other 4 players on the ice are just as important as the 5th one.
I also know that the +/- is somewhat flawed, but when looking within your own team, I believe it is a little more precise. Gill is a -5 while Hammer is +5. They are pretty much on par for Blocked Shots and Giveaways, but Gill has an edge in takeaways.
So the idea that you're just that much better off with Gill when you have a minute left isn't quite true.
You also have to think about time distribution. Not every Dman can play the most minutes in every situation. That's why we will give most of the defensive duties to Gorges and Gill, while others like Hammer still gets some but also has PP time.

I have no problem seeing Hammer in our zone with a minute left or even on the PK.

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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
There's a cap issue -- Hamrlik is going to command more than Gill as a 5th or 6th D man.
I told you the salary might be your only argument. But if Markov agrees to a deal similar to what he has. Hammer takes a pay cut, Gill doesn't re-sign, then we will have enough space to sign a new top Dman. We will have about 25M in space next year without a cap increase.
I'm aware we have guys like A.Ko and Pouliot that also will see their contract come to an end. But I believe we can manage it.

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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
You're forgetting the Penalty Kill, so no, it's not just 1 minute a game that I would prefer Gill. It includes PK time.

I think we can all appreciate having a solid Penalty Kill. (2nd best in the NHL )
We were 12th last year on the PK. Like I told you, the other players on the ice are just as important. Gill isn't this PK power tool where he'll be the most important player there. A PP can really just come down to one player, a QB or Point Shot. But on the PK, it's really up to the 4 players to play correctly.
I don't think our PK would suffer greatly from Gill's loss. Maybe drop down a couple spots, but that's it. Pittsburgh have the #1 PK and yet, they have no giant like Gill.
Last year, St-Louis had the #1 PK, same thing for them.
We can be just as good on the PK without Gill.

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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I did not say that Hamrlik tires out faster than Gill, I said Hamrlik relies on his speed more than Gill.

Each passing year, Hamrlik is slower. It's very evident, and again, I truly question if he can continue this pace and remain healthy. With that said, he might not cost 5 million but he'll most probably ask for 3.5- 4 Million. I rather save with Gill and put that money towards someone who is worth 6 Million.

You bring up that he's playing less minutes, but he's still being used plenty. In the last 4 games he's played 23 Minutes 3 times and 21 minutes the other. This is still a good amount. If you tie up more money with him next year, you're only going to be having less cap money to spend on a star D UFA. So we're basically allocating our resources on a D who relies on mobility but is getting slower with each passing year

Markov
Hamrlik's replacement (5-6 million UFA signing)
Spacek
Gorges
PK
Gill $2 Million / year
Picard / Weber / 1 Million dollar player
About every player in the NHL relies on speed more than Gill. I really fail to see how this is bad in any way.
I see no difference in Hamrlik's play so far. Apparently you do. Can't say I'm surprised seeing how overly convinced you already were of this before the season started. You have this preconceived notion that Hammer would slow down more because he did last year, but you greatly overlooked how he was taxed, especially early on and you put no importance on the fact he is used a lot less this year.
Being used 23min in a couple of games is a lot better than 28-29min wouldn't you say??..

If we can sign Hammer at 3.5M, I'd jump on this opportunity. Quite frankly, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. If both Gorges and him could be had around that much, as well as Markov around what he's currently making, that gives us 12.75M tied up in those 3 Ds. It gives us around another 12.5M + at least 3M (safe number considering the increases over the past years) in cap increase. So about 15M to sign A.Ko-Pou-a top D+ scrappers. I believe this is very possible.

I don't have a problem with re-signing Gill as a 7th Dman. I just don't see the necessity of doing it now, 1/4 of the year in.

But at the end of the day, this will come down to where Gauthier seeks improvements. I wouldn't be surprised to see the exact same D corps next year and focus on adding more offense.

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11-29-2010, 02:32 PM
  #103
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I think Gill is a valuable shot blocker but he's a liability in open play. As far as old, slow d-men go I'd much rather see Hammer return. I don't understand the hate for Hamrlik, sure he's far from the force he once was and his lack of speed means he can't afford to make many mistakes but he's still an intelligent, well rounded defender who can fill whatever role is asked of him.

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11-29-2010, 02:39 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHestah in Maine View Post
I didn't see this posted, and it is more of a blurb than an article, but Bruce Garrioch (yeah, I know) notes today that preliminary contract discussions between the Canadiens and Hal Gill have commenced:



http://www.ottawasun.com/sports/hock.../16344461.html

I wouldn't do more than one more year, but I wouldn't mind seeing Skillsy back for another year.

Mods: feel free to delete/merge if posted elsewhere and I missed it.

I'd definitely re-sign Gill at a lower price of course. He's a 5-6th defencemen and should be paid accordingly.

Re-signing Hamrlik and Gill at a lower price would be my 1st priority if I were the GM....and I'd be thinking long and hard about whether to re-sign Markov or not!!! I hate the thoughts of that, but if Markov isn't going to stay healthy and play 70+ games a season, then why keep him and his cap hit around when we could sign a UFA of the same caliber for the same price??

This upcoming off-season should be quite interesting and could drastically change the look of the team. Can't wait to see what unfolds.

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11-29-2010, 03:36 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
I wouldn't mind bringing Gill back, to be honest I was against it 2 years ago but now the guy has showed me that he can play in this league and isn't that slow to what I first thought of him, Great PK killer and he stepped up big time in last years playoffs, I wouldn't mind another year or two for something around the same salary
Yeah, this is my take too. He has proven that he has a role he can play for us. Gorges helps insulate against his speed issues He seems to take a leadership role, and be something of a thinker amongst that group. His shortcomings are apparent, but it seems like the current team covers for them in a way that helps to maximize the contribution that Gill makes.

I guess to me, I see some of the "old school" UFA spending sprees, and I could have imagined the right team with the right need at the right time being over-impressed by Gill (esp. after the playoff run last year, say) and giving him too much like $3M a year. But maybe some of that frenzy-spending stuff is wearing off in the modern league. I'd be satisfied having Gill back at around $2M per for no more than 2 years. His current salary therefore is ok too, if just a tad high.

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11-29-2010, 06:46 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
One thing's for sure, he doesn't look any older or slower than Gill.
Yet Gill's game has remained very steady over the years and if anyone is showing a decline it's Hamrlik. Again, Gill doesn't rely on mobility but rather his size and reach. He's been slow ever since he made it to the NHL. Except now he has experience. Unless he starts shrinking, he should be able to perform just as well at 37 than he is at 35. The only danger that Gill faces with aging is injury, and that's the only valid argument against him (which you have not made).

The same can not be said for 36 yr old Hamrlik, as mobility is a big part of his game... the ability to pinch and what not. You can't see a difference in his ability to pinch and play a game that we initially got him for...

Until you accept that paying the salary that Hamrlik will command, for a guy who is slowing down and who will be surely less effective is a silly overpayment there's not much of a point to continue arguing (but I'll finish this post lol).


Quote:
Gill is a -5 while Hammer is +5.
As you know, + - talk is irrelevant but if that's where this is going than I could say Hamrlik is seeing more ice time when our top line is on the ice; and this year our top line is all in positive range. If Gill is on the ice more when Plek is on the ice instead of Pyatt (-2), Boyd (-6) , Lapierre (-3) or Eller (-2), than his + - would be better too since the Plecky line is doing such a great job in playing defensively.

So if Hamrlik is playing more when Plek's is on the ice than ya, over the course of the season, Hamrlik will benefit.



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I have no problem seeing Hammer in our zone with a minute left or even on the PK.
Ok, but I rather Gill be the shut down guy. I rather Gill 5 on 4 and certainly 5 on 3.

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I told you the salary might be your only argument. But if Markov agrees to a deal similar to what he has. Hammer takes a pay cut, Gill doesn't re-sign, then we will have enough space to sign a new top Dman.
You even mentioned it that Hamrlik will see less and less of role - why you would like to allocate 3 - 4 million on an aging 5th or 6 Dman is beyond me. There is no need to, these guys are playing against 3rd and 4th liners. Keep the money for guys playing on the top two pairings. PERIOD. Giving 4 Million to Hamrlik means there's less to share, anyway you want to slice it. I rather have Gill at 2 Million and UFA at 6.5 Million than Hamrlik at 4 Million and UFA at 4.5 Million.

5th or 6th spot is ideal for Gill -- he's made for it ... Sure he'll get caught on occasion 5 on 5 but at the end of the day, he's our PK specialist / last minute guy.


Now, if the plan is to keep Hamrlik for the 3rd or 4th spot next year -- than that's just crazy talk.

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We will have about 25M in space next year without a cap increase.
I'm aware we have guys like A.Ko and Pouliot that also will see their contract come to an end. But I believe we can manage it.
Of course we can manage it, we have every year since the Cap was introduced. By and large, all teams manage it save for the Devils.

But it's' not about managing it, it's about EXPLOITING your resources in the best way possible. Allocating 3-4 Million on a bottom pairing D man in silly.


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I don't think our PK would suffer greatly from Gill's loss. Maybe drop down a couple spots, but that's it.
Clearly, you underestimate Gill. Was it Ovechkin who said he's the toughest D man to play against?


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About every player in the NHL relies on speed more than Gill. I really fail to see how this is bad in any way.
The point that you fail to recognize is that Hamrlik is getting older and slowing down noticeably with each passing season. Perhaps you don't see it, but you also don't believe that Gill is much of a difference maker on the PK so I'm not sure how to interpret your observations likewise.



Quote:

If we can sign Hammer at 3.5M, I'd jump on this opportunity.
Again, paying that much for 37 yr old D man who is already showing signs of mobility decline, who will have even a lesser role next year, is a silly overpayment. We have Weber and Picard to use on the bottom pairing if we want. Put Gill at 2 Million and now we have a relatively cheap bottom pairing D man who can play a pivotal role on the PK (though , you don't give him much kudos for that role which is the real basis of our difference in opinion).

The only way I can justify bringing back Hammer is if we are not able to get an upgrade on the Market.

Edit; just wanted to add, one of greatest benefits of having a guy like Gill around is that he will eat up Penalty Kill time that would have been otherwise consumed by top pairing guys. Having your number 5 or 6 take up the 5 on 4 or 5 on 3's gives rest to the top guys to be more effective 5 on 5 or on the PP.


Last edited by coolasprICE: 11-29-2010 at 06:56 PM.
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Old
11-29-2010, 07:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Yet Gill's game has remained very steady over the years and if anyone is showing a decline it's Hamrlik. Again, Gill doesn't rely on mobility but rather his size and reach. He's been slow ever since he made it to the NHL. Except now he has experience. Unless he starts shrinking, he should be able to perform just as well at 37 than he is at 35. The only danger that Gill faces with aging is injury, and that's the only valid argument against him (which you have not made).

The same can not be said for 36 yr old Hamrlik, as mobility is a big part of his game... the ability to pinch and what not. You can't see a difference in his ability to pinch and play a game that we initially got him for...

Clearly, you underestimate Gill. Was it Ovechkin who said he's the toughest D man to play against?
I have a very hard time understand your logic. Hamrlik goes from being a rock and a top 2 D in terms of ice time to not being good enough to fill in our bottom pairing?..Because of age...While Gill doesn't feel the effect because he's always been slow..Sorry, but that argument doesn't stick with me.
Yes, I understand that having 3.5M locked up in a bottom pair player might be quite the hefty price, but I see it as a luxury. You won't have to tax your players. You won't have to make Markov and Subban play around 25-26min, and in case of any injury, you have incredible depth.

If Markov-Gorges-Spacek-Subban are all back with us and we can manage to bring Hammer on top of adding another solid D, then we could have one of the best defense in the league. We would have incredible flexibility in the sense that every Dman could play in pretty much any situation, and as I mentioned, could step up in the eventuality of injuries.
His ability to pinch is only relative to his offensive upside, defensively he's a rock. Pair him up with another defensive guy like Gorges and they will look just as great, or even better, than Gill does there.
I'm not undermining Gill's play, he is a PK specialist, but to think he's better than Hamrlik is just absurd.

As I mentioned before, your only argument would be the salary, that's it.


As far as what Ocheckin said, it was Markov, not Gill.

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Old
11-29-2010, 07:53 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I have a very hard time understand your logic. Hamrlik goes from being a rock and a top 2 D in terms of ice time to not being good enough to fill in our bottom pairing?..Because of age...While Gill doesn't feel the effect because he's always been slow..Sorry, but that argument doesn't stick with me.
My argument is two fold: Hamrlik mobility is declining and that for the bottom pairing, I rather have the PK specialist of Gill for less money. Gills shortfalls 5 on 5 are easily handled against other teams 3rd and 4th liners.

And the question is not who we would rather have for the same price, it's who we would rather have at 2 Mil for Gill or 3.5-4 Mil for Hammer.

There's a budget allocated for Dmen -- and I rather prioritize that budget in getting top end talent -- not "balancing it out" by paying a 37 yr old 4 million dollars because he's been "solid" for us.

Lastly, you speak as if Hamrlik is a norris candidate. It's been 22 games and as much as I have given him props, the decline in mobility is apparent to me and I think he will slow down even more as the season continues, especially now that Markov is out.

Quote:

Yes, I understand that having 3.5M locked up in a bottom pair player might be quite the hefty price, but I see it as a luxury. You won't have to tax your players.
What about the luxury of having the premier PK player in the league? And the luxury of not having to tax your top pairing d man as much on the penalty kill?


Quote:
I'm not undermining Gill's play, he is a PK specialist, but to think he's better than Hamrlik is just absurd.
It's not about who is better or who is worse -- it's about who best fits into the role in the future and at what cost will we have to pay for that role.

Yes, 5 on 5 Hamrlik is better. But against 4th liners, it's not something worth paying for. The 'insurance' argument is not something I buy into.



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As far as what Ocheckin said, it was Markov, not Gill.
Actually, I looked it up. Jagar was the one who said the hardest D man to play against was Gill.

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11-29-2010, 10:53 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
My argument is two fold: Hamrlik mobility is declining and that for the bottom pairing, I rather have the PK specialist of Gill for less money. Gills shortfalls 5 on 5 are easily handled against other teams 3rd and 4th liners.

And the question is not who we would rather have for the same price, it's who we would rather have at 2 Mil for Gill or 3.5-4 Mil for Hammer.

There's a budget allocated for Dmen -- and I rather prioritize that budget in getting top end talent -- not "balancing it out" by paying a 37 yr old 4 million dollars because he's been "solid" for us.

Lastly, you speak as if Hamrlik is a norris candidate. It's been 22 games and as much as I have given him props, the decline in mobility is apparent to me and I think he will slow down even more as the season continues, especially now that Markov is out.
I don't know why you keep bringing up the salary, I've acknowledged that it is the sole argument on your side. But how much either player will demand is unknown. If Hammer still wants 5M, then this discussion is useless as I'd want no part of him. Likely for Gill at 3M.

I do not speak of Hammer as if he's a norris candidate. He's been solid for us, that's all I said. You on the other hand, keep saying how he's slowed down, but that in no way changes the fact he's arguably been our best Dman.
Also, you had a preconceived idea before the season even started that he was going to be affected by his age. Now, even if he's playing quite well, you insist that your idea remains correct and he will start showing signs of fatigue later during the season even while playing a lot less than last year.


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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
What about the luxury of having the premier PK player in the league? And the luxury of not having to tax your top pairing d man as much on the penalty kill?
As I explained to you before. The PK has a lot more to do with the unit and not one player. Gill could be replace and we'd still be part of the top PK teams.

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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
It's not about who is better or who is worse -- it's about who best fits into the role in the future and at what cost will we have to pay for that role.

Yes, 5 on 5 Hamrlik is better. But against 4th liners, it's not something worth paying for. The 'insurance' argument is not something I buy into.
The ''insurance'' argument is called depth.
Tell Hammer to play a purely defensive role and make him shutdown 4th liners, that should surely compensate for his aging factor. Like I said, the only argument is money. If Hammer demands too much of it, then yea, I want no part of him.



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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Actually, I looked it up. Jagar was the one who said the hardest D man to play against was Gill.
Jagr said that in his prime, which also happened to probably be Gill's prime. Things have changed.

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11-29-2010, 11:58 PM
  #110
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Gill on the Habs is a good thing...

not a bad thing.

end of story

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11-30-2010, 09:11 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't know why you keep bringing up the salary, I've acknowledged that it is the sole argument on your side.
No, it's the sole argument that YOU are willing to acknowledge. Your perception of Hamrlik is based on 22 games and some stats that have been cushioned by the tremendous play of Carey Price.

Quote:
He's been solid for us, that's all I said. You on the other hand, keep saying how he's slowed down, but that in no way changes the fact he's arguably been our best Dman.
Offensively and in terms of mobility, Hamrlik has little gaz left...it's the last year of his huge contract, it shouldn't come to a surprise.

He will get caught, and simply can not cover the same amount of ice. If we want a solid stay at home D man, than I don't see why you would pay Hamrlik close to 4 Million. It simply makes no sense.

Hamrlik is not a stay at home D man, he's a slowing down dman. The problem with players like this is that sure they will play solid hockey, but at some point, there wheels are going to fall off and they're going to hurt your team if anything.

Hamrlik is not Rob Blake, he's not this solid beast stay at home that will play until 40 years old.

Now, Hamrlik at 2 Million is a much more fair price tag. But at the price he will most likely command, I rather pay 6.5 million for the better younger version and stick with our younger options or sign Gill at 2 million (if that's even possible, as you pointed out).




Quote:

The ''insurance'' argument is called depth.
Tell Hammer to play a purely defensive role and make him shutdown 4th liners, that should surely compensate for his aging factor. Like I said, the only argument is money. If Hammer demands too much of it, then yea, I want no part of him.
Paying anyone over 3 - 4 Million to be a bottom pairing D man is retarded.

By your "depth" argument than I guess we can say there's no need to have any "stars" on offense, better to plug the team with a bunch of quality 2nd -3rd liners as it will give us more depth.

I rather make it a priority of getting the best available UFA's on the market. On the 4th line, bottom pairing, the most I'd pay for a player is maybe 2 Million -- and in that case it would be for Gill who can play the PK. Even 2 Million is pushing it, frankly.



Quote:

Jagr said that in his prime, which also happened to probably be Gill's prime. Things have changed.

Yet, you refuse to acknowledge the point that Gill doesn't exactly "slow down", his game has always been centered around his size and reach, blocking shots, and playing the Penalty Kill. He brings no offense, and he is prone to getting caught, but this was the case 10 years ago in his prime. He's a beast to play against IN HIS OWN ZONE, and that's why Jagr said what he did.

The only threat that Gill has towards aging is the likelihood of being more injury prone -- skating / mobility is a non issue now for at least a few more years.

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11-30-2010, 10:00 AM
  #112
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I like Gill, but we need to transition to a younger/more mobile defense, I'd prefer to re sign Hamrlik at 3.5 mil than Gill at 1.5-1.8. Hamrlik is much faster and for whatever dropoff on the PK he is much better 5 on 5 and on the PP, I think he has a couple of solid years left.

I think if we can replace Gill with a 4-4.5 mil mobile top 4 guy (in the summer) that moves the puck well and can play PK and PP. A Hamhuis/Ballard/Erhoff/Kaberle type player.

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11-30-2010, 10:36 AM
  #113
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When I think about the fact that our team could possibly have the cap room to sign the likes of Kaberle, Ehrhoff and much more... maybe even two of them, makes me want to let Gill and Hammer walk as much as I love those two players.

It's our time now guys, as much as some people around here don't want to admit it we have a 3-4 season window coming up after this UFA period in which we could win the cup if our GM plays his cards right. I have my doubts either one will be re-signed unless it's at a serious pay decrease.

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11-30-2010, 10:41 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
When I think about the fact that our team could possibly have the cap room to sign the likes of Kaberle, Ehrhoff and much more... maybe even two of them, makes me want to let Gill and Hammer walk as much as I love those two players.

It's our time now guys, as much as some people around here don't want to admit it we have a 3-4 season window coming up after this UFA period in which we could win the cup if our GM plays his cards right. I have my doubts either one will be re-signed unless it's at a serious pay decrease.
I'd be happy with one of those guys, getting two would be huge. Planning to get both would be a recipe for disaster IMHO.

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11-30-2010, 10:44 AM
  #115
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I'd be happy with one of those guys, getting two would be huge. Planning to get both would be a recipe for disaster IMHO.
Not necessarily saying both those guys specifically but possibly one of them and another player who is an upgrade over Gill/Hammer. Personally I'd roll the dice on Kaberle, I think he'd come for cheaper and he'd be a real nice fit here.

Plus it's payback time for Komi only this time it won't actually be a favor being done

If we steal Kaberle from Toronto and then they can't get a D to sign who is similar they're basically screwed. They need Kaberle so much more than they realize imo, referring to the fans not the management here. Plus players want to sign with good teams not **** ones, the odds of Toronto landing another quality D at their current status is pretty unlikely unless they overpay. We all saw with even a decent habs team how hard it was for years to land quality UFA's.

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11-30-2010, 10:46 AM
  #116
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I'd be happy with one of those guys, getting two would be huge. Planning to get both would be a recipe for disaster IMHO.
A total disaster indeed. Just watch what teams do before July 1st. More players getting locked up sooner. Kaberle may still hit the market. But I doubt Ehrhoff does. For example. If we have Hamrlik or Gill ready to sign at what we feel is a fair price for players of the calibre, we have to take the birds in hand.

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11-30-2010, 10:47 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Not necessarily saying both those guys specifically but possibly one of them and another player who is an upgrade over Gill/Hammer. Personally I'd roll the dice on Kaberle, I think he'd come for cheaper and he'd be a real nice fit here.

Plus it's payback time for Komi only this time it won't actually be a favor being done
Kaberle would be an upgrade on Hmrlik but he'd probably cost 5+ mil over 4-5-6 years. I think we can get Hamrlik back for 6-7 mil total over 2 years.

The big risk if you let your own player walk is that 1-you lose the potential home town discount and 2-there are no guarntees on the UFA and you can end up overpaying like we did with Spacek.

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11-30-2010, 10:50 AM
  #118
NHLcrazy
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1 yr --1.8M$

That would be fair...

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11-30-2010, 12:16 PM
  #119
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Spacek 3.83
Subban 0.87
Gorges is RFA 2.5-3.5

3 D for 8.2M$, at worst.

(First of all, we need to keep Gorges.
How long, i dont really care, but the cap hit will be probably between 2.5M and 3.5M. Pessimistic expectations only)

Usually, teams spend between 15 and 20M$ for their defensive squad.
Right now, we are spending 20.77M$, and i dont think we can use more money for it with the future raises of Price, Subban and Eller.
So, 11.5M$ approximatively, for 4 players. (with the #7)
How do we consider our signed players ?

The way i see it, Gorges and Subban will be at a second-pairing level for next year...like #3 and #4. (In term of depth chart, and not real talent)
Spacek's contract is a problem. He is likely to be considered as a #5, but is paid 3.83M...if we can move him, we have to do it.
Do we move him back to he left is a question who need an answer.

We need a #1, who is very likely to be Markov. Not a lot of options in the market, and he will take a discount. Lets say he got a cap hit of 6M$.

Picard in for #7, at 0.7, we have 4.7M for 2 players.
Thats not enough to have a real #2 on the market. If Gorges sign for 2.5M, with 5.7M, its possible.
Anyway, it is enough to keep Hamrlik, though. And it will probably be enough to try something for the winger issue.


Gill could stay, but we need him to take under 1.5M, maybe even under 1.25M.
We could offer him 3 years at 1M for instance (and then Tinordi will hopefully take his spot), i dont think it will be a huge problem as he's already the slowest guy in the team, he's reliable when used properly, and it wont be impossible to move him if we need it.

In a worst case scenario :

Markov (6) - Gorges (3.5)
Hamrlik (4.25) - Spacek (3.83)
Gill (1.75) - Subban (0.87)
Picard (0.7)

Total : 20.9M

Hamrlik could sign for 1-3 years
Gill, at this amount, 1 year only.

Best case scenario :

Markov (6) - Gorges (2.5)
X - Spacek (3.83)
Gill (1) - Subban (0.87)
Picard (0.7)

Total : 14.9M+X.
Around 5.5-6M left to sign a #2 D-Man.

The only ones who are really fitting if we are looking for an upgrade over Hamrlik, talent-wise, are Kaberle and maybe McCabe or Pitkanen.

Otherwise, it will just be a substitution, and then i will prefer keeping the Czech, less expensive.

Anyway, we must discuss with Gorges and Gill ASAP.

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11-30-2010, 12:23 PM
  #120
coolasprICE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post

Markov (6) - Gorges (3.5)
Hamrlik (4.25) - Spacek (3.83)

Gill (1.75) - Subban (0.87)
Picard (0.7)

Total : 20.9M
Oh, god. No... ... Not in 2011-2012

Markov (5.5) - Top caliber UFA (6) = 11.5
Gorges (3) - Subban (.870) = 3.870
Gill ( 2 ) - Spacek (3.83) = 5.83

Picard or Weber or UFA = 800K

= 22 Million (which is ok, Cap is going up a bit).

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11-30-2010, 02:29 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Kaberle would be an upgrade on Hmrlik but he'd probably cost 5+ mil over 4-5-6 years. I think we can get Hamrlik back for 6-7 mil total over 2 years.

The big risk if you let your own player walk is that 1-you lose the potential home town discount and 2-there are no guarntees on the UFA and you can end up overpaying like we did with Spacek.
I'd still take the risk on Kaberle. Not necessarily at the expense of Hammer it would depend on what Hammer is willing to take.

I have a feeling he'll want more than we'd be willing to give though.

To me 3.5 million a year for him at this point might even be a stretch. I'm not going to get into a Gill vs Hammer argument I just think Gill might offer us better value on the dollar than Hammer would and at the end of the day if that allows us to sign even 1 extra good player versus the none we'd get from the salary difference in Hammer, I'd take Gill cause he's good on the PK, good with Gorges and is also a vet who mentors the younger players.

Some other people also suggested Gill as a #7, not sure if he'd be up for that but if he was I'd take him as a #7 in a heart beat.

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11-30-2010, 03:41 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'd still take the risk on Kaberle. Not necessarily at the expense of Hammer it would depend on what Hammer is willing to take.

I have a feeling he'll want more than we'd be willing to give though.


To me 3.5 million a year for him at this point might even be a stretch.
Ya, no kidding. The guy is not going to go from 5.5 to anything less than 3.5. I'd bet money on that.

Quote:

I'm not going to get into a Gill vs Hammer argument I just think Gill might offer us better value on the dollar than Hammer
True. No GM in their right mind signs a dman 3.5 M or more knowing he'll be on the bottom pairing.

Quote:

would and at the end of the day if that allows us to sign even 1 extra good player versus the none we'd get from the salary difference in Hammer, I'd take Gill cause he's good on the PK, good with Gorges and is also a vet who mentors the younger players.
That's exactly what I've been saying. Now, if Gill is going to ask the same amount as Hamrlik than they could both GTFO. But if he's willing to come back for more or less the same amount of money that he's making now, not only do we get a PK beast who will play 5 on 5 against other teams 4th liners, we have more flexibility to sign a big name.

I think people are understating the importance of getting a big name this summer ... The reason being because we really do not know what to expect with Markov.

I warned about Markov being injury prone back when I started the other thread -- and I was told that I was worrying for nothing.

Now he re-injured the knee, and the worry going forward is not even so much if he'll injure it again but if he will be the Old Markov that we all knew.

Anyway we slice it, it is more important now than ever to acquire acquire younger big name UFA dman -- allocating close to 4 M on Hammer is not the right direction to take.

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11-30-2010, 04:13 PM
  #123
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
No, it's the sole argument that YOU are willing to acknowledge. Your perception of Hamrlik is based on 22 games and some stats that have been cushioned by the tremendous play of Carey Price.


Yet, you refuse to acknowledge the point that Gill doesn't exactly "slow down"
I will only answer these two parts and leave it at that because we're going around in circles.

I'm not basing my perception off 22 games only. I'm basing it on his performance last year, where he and Spacek were the main reason why we were able to sustained the loss of Markov (and almost every other member of this team, including Gill that was just horrible and playing injured early in the season). He had a little let down in the POs but got back on track after he was criticized. I'm basing it on his stellar start this year. We can also look at his first year here where he was an absolute beast and actually worth his salary.
So no, it's not just 22 games. Ya, he's slowed down but he's still better than Gill, something you acknowledged. Where you draw the line is that you rather spend less money and have a PK specialist as a bottom liner. That's fine, I certainly won't cry if that happens. But I wouldn't mind adding one extra Million and retaining Hamrlik if that were a possibility.
Also, Gill had a rather rough season last year. The love for him really grew in the POs because before that he was a regular target of criticism. And, isn't he playing with Price as well??..Hammer looks better because of Price but not Gill??...Funny because the #1 PK player is always the goalie, and you insist on the fact Gill is a key player of our PK. I would think he benefits from playing in front of a hot Price more than Hammer.

Gill has slowed down dude, just as much as Hamrlik.

Anyways, I'll leave it at that. We will see what happens, I prefer keeping Hammer as he provides more than Gill. You rather keep Gill and invest that extra 1-1.5M somewhere else. I don't really mind, I just prefer keeping Hammer.

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11-30-2010, 05:12 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

Gill has slowed down dude, just as much as Hamrlik.
Gill's been a turtle all his career and has adjusted (and made a long career out of it ) to being probably the slowest man to ever play in the NHL lol.

I think even BGL looks like Russ Courtnall next to Gill.

Hamrlik's mobility has declined a lot more than Gill's over the past few seasons.

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11-30-2010, 05:25 PM
  #125
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Hamrlik is much more than a bottom pairing Dman. He is currently the best defencemen of the best defensive team in the league. give your head a shake. He won't be playing bottom pairing minutes next year, Gill will be, because it's all he's ever been capable of.

I also don't agree with it's more important than ever to get a younger dman. It's more important than ever to win. I believe our best chance to do that is with Hamrlik on our team. His work is often under appreciated and this is the 2nd straight year he has had to bail us out and become our number 1 dman. I think we would struggle mightily without him. Be careful what you wish for. Other players who we think are better than our own we give the benefit of the doubt because they're on weaker teams, but maybe they're part of the problem.


Last edited by habsjunkie2*: 11-30-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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