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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

A look at Hobey Baker

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Old
04-08-2015, 11:34 AM
  #1
LastWordArmy
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A look at Hobey Baker

Before the award goes out on Friday, who was this legend of the college game?

http://lastwordonsports.com/2015/04/...s-hobey-baker/

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04-08-2015, 02:43 PM
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the edler
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Since I've done some extensive research on the AmAHL, where he played, all I can say about Hobey is that he got very favorable reviews in the game reports. Especially for his end to end rushes.

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05-26-2015, 02:42 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Since I've done some extensive research on the AmAHL, where he played, all I can say about Hobey is that he got very favorable reviews in the game reports. Especially for his end to end rushes.
But not for his backchecking, which was often non-existent. Not that this kills his value as a player, but he was one-dimensional.

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03-01-2016, 04:49 AM
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the edler
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
But not for his backchecking, which was often non-existent. Not that this kills his value as a player, but he was one-dimensional.
Fair enough. Could very well be so, but a lot of HHOF players were one-dimensional. Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Selänne & Bure, only to name a few examples, none of those guys were known for their furious backchecking. As for the old school era, how multi-dimensional were Russell Bowie, Frank McGee, Harvey Pulford?

With Hobey, I'm more concerned about his exceedingly non-rough gentlemanly game. I suspect he would have been slaughtered if he went up against Alf & Harry Smith or Baldy Spittal type of players.

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03-01-2016, 05:51 AM
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Marotte Marauder
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His skill on the ice was so impressive that he was one of the first nine, and the only American, to be inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame. He was also inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame. In fact, to this day he is the only member of both hockey and football halls of fame.

A man's man that I wish I could have seen play.

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03-01-2016, 07:06 AM
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Lionel Conacher

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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
His skill on the ice was so impressive that he was one of the first nine, and the only American, to be inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame. He was also inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame. In fact, to this day he is the only member of both hockey and football halls of fame.

A man's man that I wish I could have seen play.
Lionel Conacher is a member of the HHOF, the Canadian Football Hall of Fame, The Canadian Lacrosse Hall of Fame and the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame.

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03-01-2016, 09:12 AM
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James Laverance
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I'd say Hobey Baker was in fact the Greatest American Hockey player of all time.

Who could argue with this.

Born in Bala Cynwyd, Pennsylvania in 1892 he attended St.Paul's School from 1906-1910.
He participated in most sports including Ice Hockey at age 15.

While playing at SPS he defeated both Harvard and Princeton and by 1910 he enrolled at Princeton University.

As a member of the Tigers he apparently racked up 120 goals and over 100 assists in just 40+ games.

One night against Williams College in 1912 he managed to score 11 goals a feat that will never be equaled.

He was even offered a contract to play with the Montreal Canadians in 1915 for a reported $ 20,000 as a part of a three year contract but turned it down to stay as an amateur with the St.Nicholas hockey club of the AAHL.

He was part of the first class of inductees for the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1945.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=moc...pXAh0Q6AEIHDAA
http://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/cgi...DS19121221.2.4
http://www.goironpigs.com/?p=17484
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobey_Baker

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03-01-2016, 09:20 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Laverance View Post
I'd say Hobey Baker was in fact the Greatest American Hockey player of all time.

Who could argue with this.


Born in Bala Cynwyd, Pennsylvania in 1892 he attended St.Paul's School from 1906-1910.
He participated in most sports including Ice Hockey at age 15.

While playing at SPS he defeated both Harvard and Princeton and by 1910 he enrolled at Princeton University.

As a member of the Tigers he apparently racked up 120 goals and over 100 assists in just 40+ games.

One night against Williams College in 1912 he managed to score 11 goals a feat that will never be equaled.

He was even offered a contract to play with the Montreal Canadians in 1915 for a reported $ 20,000 as a part of a three year contract but turned it down to stay as an amateur with the St.Nicholas hockey club of the AAHL.

He was part of the first class of inductees for the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1945.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=moc...pXAh0Q6AEIHDAA
http://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/cgi...DS19121221.2.4
http://www.goironpigs.com/?p=17484
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobey_Baker
Um no and that is an outlandish claim even in this section that looks extremely favorably on early greats.

Heck I haven't ever seen his name on any list of all time 10 Americans nevermind being the best one ever?

And for good reason.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 03-01-2016 at 09:30 AM.
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Old
03-01-2016, 09:33 AM
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James Laverance
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^^^ I'm so sry to Brimsek, Chelios, Leetch, Housley, Modano etc...

No one compares.

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03-01-2016, 09:42 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Composition

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Um no and that is an outlandish claim even in this section that looks extremely favorably on early greats.

Heck I haven't ever seen his name on any list of all time 10 Americans nevermind being the best one ever?

And for good reason.
But Hobey Baker refusing offers to turn pro in the NHA directly contradicts your composition argument.

Plus in 1945 he was on the top of the list of Americans named to the HHOF.

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03-01-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
But Hobey Baker refusing offers to turn pro in the NHA directly contradicts your composition argument.

Plus in 1945 he was on the top of the list of Americans named to the HHOF.
When we rank players, we rank them on what they did not what they might have done right?

Also his inclusion into the HHOF doesn't change his status as a player and what he actually accomplished or how he should be viewed in history.

It's the equivalent on the main prospects boards watching a you tube video of a 10 or 11 year old and saying man he is the best prospect since Wayne Gretzky..ect...

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Old
03-01-2016, 10:45 AM
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Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Laverance View Post
I'd say Hobey Baker was in fact the Greatest American Hockey player of all time.
Based on what?

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03-01-2016, 11:28 AM
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James Laverance
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^^^^ Thanks for your feedback but unfortunately u fail to in anyway affect my opinion on Hobey Baker.

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Old
03-01-2016, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Laverance View Post
^^^^ Thanks for your feedback but unfortunately u fail to in anyway affect my opinion on Hobey Baker.
So it simply comes down to you saying Hober Baker is the best American player ever and then simply refusing to look at it objectively or with any critical thought?

I could say that Joe Mullen was a much better player simply by looking at his NYJHL with a 40-110-72-182 line but that wouldn't be very strong.

His scoring 500 NHL goals and being a scoring superstar in the CHL would be much better evidence.

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03-01-2016, 01:23 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Hobey Baker Retrospective

A collection of articles about Hobey Baker's Ice Hockey career:

1925 The Gazette:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...5250%2C3564991

describes the success his team had playing against elite Montréal amateur opposition

1963, 1964 and 1967 The Gazette, Dink Carroll, columns about great university players:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...6093%2C2707699

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...6204%2C3552532

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=6776%2C672102

some of the referenced McGill Players went on to play in Europe during the 1930s.

Ottawa comments and appreciations:

1916 Ottawa Citizen:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...4770%2C6398111

1925 Ottawa Citizen recalling 1915 university game Baker played in Ottawa:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...6877%2C6240464

1952 Ottawa Citizen HHOF Induction
https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...7211%2C2942118

Comparable between Hobey Baker to Moose Goheen's decision to forego an NHL career.

University hockey until WWII was very strong, producing elite players capable of playing in the NHL but for various reasons often chose not to. By all accounts Hobey Baker was the best of the American University players, impressing contemporaries in the USA and Canada.

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03-01-2016, 05:37 PM
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I'm very interested in info about Hobey Baker, so thanks for the thread.

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03-01-2016, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Laverance View Post
^^^ I'm so sry to Brimsek, Chelios, Leetch, Housley, Modano etc...

No one compares.
It's fun to romanticize historic players nobody's watched on video and let your imagination run wild from written descriptions and scantly recorded statistics, but consider all the wonderful players who put up otherworldly junior/European/college careers who flat out disappointed in the National Hockey League.

To use a modern example, imagine if a guy like Alexandre Daigle never made the NHL and all we had to go on was his Quebec Major junior career, his 1993 stats line and all the hype in media. What kind of completely romanticized player we would have had two decades worth of hype been allowed to percolate without reality intervening.

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03-01-2016, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
It's fun to romanticize historic players nobody's watched on video and let your imagination run wild from written descriptions and scantly recorded statistics, but consider all the wonderful players who put up otherworldly junior/European/college careers who flat out disappointed in the National Hockey League.

To use a modern example, imagine if a guy like Alexandre Daigle never made the NHL and all we had to go on was his Quebec Major junior career, his 1993 stats line and all the hype in media. What kind of completely romanticized player we would have had two decades worth of hype been allowed to percolate without reality intervening.
Great post Stephen.... and yes, its the romanticism of unfulfilled potential, of a young life cut short... of what might have been that we as humans all find so gripping and tragic at the same time. Anyone who cannot dream... well... what are we if we cant dream?... imagine?. Its how we got to where we are. Those dreams... responsible for everything we can be individually, as a race.

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03-02-2016, 08:13 PM
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Great post Stephen.... and yes, its the romanticism of unfulfilled potential, of a young life cut short... of what might have been that we as humans all find so gripping and tragic at the same time. Anyone who cannot dream... well... what are we if we cant dream?... imagine?. Its how we got to where we are. Those dreams... responsible for everything we can be individually, as a race.
It's always fun to learn about these legends of the game who kind of existed before reality, standing there in their old fashioned sweaters in these sepia toned Edwardian portraits, and what the game and world was like way back when.

For me, some of that magic and mythology is lost when people try to make these definitive comparisons to guys we all watch in modernity, plain as day.

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03-03-2016, 01:12 AM
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the edler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
It's always fun to learn about these legends of the game who kind of existed before reality, standing there in their old fashioned sweaters in these sepia toned Edwardian portraits, and what the game and world was like way back when.

For me, some of that magic and mythology is lost when people try to make these definitive comparisons to guys we all watch in modernity, plain as day.
Ya, because back then people didn't know anything or couldn't do anything.

It's a miracle they survived.

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03-03-2016, 09:34 AM
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Ya, because back then people didn't know anything or couldn't do anything.

It's a miracle they survived.
.... apparently not, and yes, amazing.

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03-03-2016, 06:52 PM
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Ya, because back then people didn't know anything or couldn't do anything.

It's a miracle they survived.
The issue really isn't the historical player's abilities, but the authoritative and definitive tone some people use in ranking them in relation to someone you may have watched shoot a C.G.I. enhanced puck on Fox Sports. Hobey Baker may have been way better than Modano/Leetch/Lafontaine whomever. May have been way worse. May have been a perfect clone.

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03-03-2016, 07:02 PM
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Progression

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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The issue really isn't the historical player's abilities, but the authoritative and definitive tone some people use in ranking them in relation to someone you may have watched shoot a C.G.I. enhanced puck on Fox Sports. Hobey Baker may have been way better than Modano/Leetch/Lafontaine whomever. May have been way worse. May have been a perfect clone.
The progression of newspaper comments from 1916 to well into the sixties by recognized hockey columnists with no horse in the race contrasted with comments today.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 03-03-2016 at 08:19 PM.
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03-03-2016, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The issue really isn't the historical player's abilities, but the authoritative and definitive tone some people use in ranking them in relation to someone you may have watched shoot a C.G.I. enhanced puck on Fox Sports. Hobey Baker may have been way better than Modano/Leetch/Lafontaine whomever. May have been way worse. May have been a perfect clone.
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The progression of newspaper comments from 1916 to well into the sixties bty recognized hockey columnists with no horse in the race contrasted with comments today.
What is it that you are trying to say here in regards to the above quote as it's very unclear.

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03-03-2016, 08:30 PM
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Narratives

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What is it that you are trying to say here in regards to the above quote as it's very unclear.
From 1969 into the 1960s various narratives about Hobey Baker from various sources were unanimous in their praise of his hockey skills. Narratives included accounts from opponents.

No one writing about Hobey Baker had any motive to be less than accurate, nor were they writing with an eye regarding today's pundits.

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