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Kaberle - Setoguchi

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12-02-2010, 02:00 PM
  #1
ChuckWoods
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Kaberle - Setoguchi

Now I know this is a little off base and a slightly unconventional approach to a trade proposal thread. I also hate the "revisit the past type threads". But I am personally curious to see what the general consensus of this discussion is.

But lets say on July 1st of this past year there was a trade being discussed that would have sent Kaberle to San Jose for Devin Setoguchi.

Im am not discussing value at this point in time because Kaberle's contract is running out and Devins value may have dropped slightly as he seems to be struggling slightly. But what I am asking you to do is take your minds back to July 1st and decide whether or not it makes sense to your team.

It may be hard to do because you realize the product of your team at this point in time and its easier now to disect your team needs. But....

What would your reaction have been for a 1 for 1 swap with these players?

Would it be a non-starter, would it need to be tweaked a little on either side or is it fair value?


As a Leafs fan, I would have been pretty excited at the concept of another Top 6 coming in with Versteeg. Both are very close friends and could have complimented each other well. Kaberle at that point in time was expected to move, and this is the type of move I would have been ok with.

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12-02-2010, 03:25 PM
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seanlinden
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Non starter for both teams involved.

Setoguchi does nothing for Toronto that isn't already accomplished via MacArthur, Kulemin, Versteeg & Armstrong. Kaberle does nothing for San Jose that isn't already accomplished by Dan Boyle.

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12-02-2010, 03:33 PM
  #3
ChuckWoods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Non starter for both teams involved.

Setoguchi does nothing for Toronto that isn't already accomplished via MacArthur, Kulemin, Versteeg & Armstrong. Kaberle does nothing for San Jose that isn't already accomplished by Dan Boyle.
Interesting.

And you say that with absolute confidence and certainty?

July 1st would have been before MacArthurt signed, so most likely if this deal went through the Mac signing would have probably been redundant. Even if so, the Leafs need as much talent and bottom 6 scoring as they can get, and both Mac and Setoguchi can be a Top 6 or 3rd line player.

Mac - Kadri - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabo - Setoguchi
Versteeg - Bozak - Armstrong
Brown/Orr - Brent - Sjostrom

or

Mac - Kadri - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabo - Armstrong
Versteeg - Bozak - Sjostrom
Brown - Brent - Orr

I'll take the first option, a much more rounded and offensively effective team, without really losing and defensively ability on the front end. The back end generally loses some offensive touch with Kaberle missing. But the fact that the Leafs had Gunnarsson, Aulie, Lebda and Holzer waiting in the wings could have justified the move.

I cant speak for San Jose since I generally follow eastern conference teams, but I know they're looking to upgrade their defensive system, but the Beauchemin type probably fits their needs a little better than a soft puck mover like Kaberle.

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12-02-2010, 03:36 PM
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as a leafs fan I would love Seto on the Leafs, he's skilled, shoots, and plays with an edge
he'd definitely make the Leafs harder to play against and give them legit scoring threat on 2nd line

would love to see he and Steeg on the same line

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12-02-2010, 03:49 PM
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seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckWoods View Post
Interesting.

And you say that with absolute confidence and certainty?

July 1st would have been before MacArthurt signed, so most likely if this deal went through the Mac signing would have probably been redundant. Even if so, the Leafs need as much talent and bottom 6 scoring as they can get, and both Mac and Setoguchi can be a Top 6 or 3rd line player.

Mac - Kadri - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabo - Setoguchi
Versteeg - Bozak - Armstrong
Brown/Orr - Brent - Sjostrom

or

Mac - Kadri - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabo - Armstrong
Versteeg - Bozak - Sjostrom
Brown - Brent - Orr

I'll take the first option, a much more rounded and offensively effective team, without really losing and defensively ability on the front end. The back end generally loses some offensive touch with Kaberle missing. But the fact that the Leafs had Gunnarsson, Aulie, Lebda and Holzer waiting in the wings could have justified the move.

I cant speak for San Jose since I generally follow eastern conference teams, but I know they're looking to upgrade their defensive system, but the Beauchemin type probably fits their needs a little better than a soft puck mover like Kaberle.
Well, there's not much sense in going back to july 1, but I'll humour you.

On July 1, the Leafs group of wingers consisted of Phil Kessel, Nikolai Kulemin, Kris Versteeg, Freddy Sjostrom, Mike Brown and Colton Orr. That basically meant they had a 1 guy for the first line (Kessel), a pair of guys for the 2nd line (Kulemin-Versteeg), a 3rd liner (Sjostrom) and 4th line (Brown-Orr). They would need a 3rd line RW (Armstrong fits perfectly) and a top line LW to compliment Kessel (Setoguchi fits horribly). So no, it wouldn't be a more well rounded team. We'd have the same bull#### problems with an inability to generate traffic infront of the net.

On the Sharks side, they needed defencemen like Michalek, Kubina, Hamhuis.


Today, it would still make no sense. MacArthur-Kadri-Kessel doesn't work and isn't going to, the only need Toronto has is for a player to go alongside Kessel.

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12-02-2010, 03:52 PM
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Kaberle would help the Sharks move the puck, but we really need a two-way d-man.

Because Couture has stepped up so quickly, Seto is somewhat expendable, however our lines would lose speed they cannot afford as well.

Basically, it would not be my preferred deal. Would I spit poison about it? Probably not. We'd be better after the trade than before, just not good enough.

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12-02-2010, 03:55 PM
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Who is going to move the puck in TO's end? Please don't tell me Brett ****ing Lebda. We are done with that experiment now.

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12-02-2010, 03:58 PM
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ChuckWoods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless View Post
Who is going to move the puck in TO's end? Please don't tell me Brett ****ing Lebda. We are done with that experiment now.
Despite what many Leaf fans believe....Beauchemin, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson and even Schenn are starting to make solid outlet pass.

Kaberle is an elite puck mover, I'll admit that. But I think the Leafs could do without him on the powerplay and even strength. Are the Leafs surviving the other 40 minutes of the game without Tomas on it? Yes.

But no, Lebda shouldnt be relied on to move the puck, it should be more by "committee".

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12-02-2010, 04:01 PM
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id go for couture instead of setoguchi man but i doubt they would move a inch from it.

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12-02-2010, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
id go for couture instead of setoguchi man but i doubt they would move a inch from it.
I would too, but the point of this thread is to stay realistic and discuss a trade that potentially would have made sense for both teams.

Couture wasnt, nor ever will be an option for the Leafs at this point in time.

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12-02-2010, 05:14 PM
  #11
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Seto would be nice, but i think i'd prefer a Clowe for Kaberle deal, we need more size on our top 6,though a Seto-Kaberle deal would be something to think about. Would San Jose rather a Beachemin type defencemen though?

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12-02-2010, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 81snipe View Post
Seto would be nice, but i think i'd prefer a Clowe for Kaberle deal, we need more size on our top 6,though a Seto-Kaberle deal would be something to think about. Would San Jose rather a Beachemin type defencemen though?
I personally think they would.

Kaberle's value to San Jose is a little deminished due to the fact they have a player like Dan Boyle.

Beauchemin provides a little more to their blueline due to the fact that he's a little more versatile and can move the puck as well.

Clowe would be more ideal for the Leafs, but I think he fits extremely well in San Jose's system so Setoguchi would prefered to be moved most likely.

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12-02-2010, 05:26 PM
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Back to July 1st?

From a Sharks standpoint, the answer is still no.

There wasn't any risk in seeing if Seto would rebound from a softmore slump since he is still an RFA for some years.

Kaberle's cap hit would have been difficult to work with, and he doesn't really add anything the the gaping defensive problem of the Sharks.

The answer is still

23 year old RFA, Potential 1st line sniper with grit FOR 32 year old PMD with 1 year left on contract?

No thanks back then. Still no thanks now.

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12-02-2010, 05:34 PM
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The real problem is, and this has nothing to do with the Leafs, is that none of the 'available' d-men in Toronto are going to make a big enough difference to make San Jose a real contender.

To do that we need a game breaking two-way defensemen with quick skating and a strong and accurate point shot (basically Blake, but faster).

I am also of the opinion that we need a faster and more defensively capable top-6. Which is why I have proposed swapping Heatley out for a fast two-way forward that can carry the puck in traffic (and cap space for a d-man). We lose some points from Heatley but gain it back in a better defense and less GAA.

So as far as Toronto goes, it's tough to fill that need.

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12-02-2010, 05:38 PM
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seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
The real problem is, and this has nothing to do with the Leafs, is that none of the 'available' d-men in Toronto are going to make a big enough difference to make San Jose a real contender.

To do that we need a game breaking two-way defensemen with quick skating and a strong and accurate point shot (basically Blake, but faster).

I am also of the opinion that we need a faster and more defensively capable top-6. Which is why I have proposed swapping Heatley out for a fast two-way forward that can carry the puck in traffic (and cap space for a d-man). We lose some points from Heatley but gain it back in a better defense and less GAA.

So as far as Toronto goes, it's tough to fill that need.
Beauchemin fits that profile almost perfectly (not really a game-breaker but a #2/3 guy).... problem beign that SJ isn't going to part with what it takes to get him.

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12-02-2010, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Beauchemin fits that profile almost perfectly (not really a game-breaker but a #2/3 guy).... problem beign that SJ isn't going to part with what it takes to get him.
Not really.

And like I said, he's not good enough to make a difference, so why bother. I'd rather play this season out, and wait to get the right player, not patch.

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12-02-2010, 06:05 PM
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seanlinden
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Not really.

And like I said, he's not good enough to make a difference, so why bother. I'd rather play this season out, and wait to get the right player, not patch.
Mobile? Check
Strong and Accurate Point Shot? Check
Decent Puck Mover? Check
Solid Defensive Play? Check

He'd be the exact kind of defenceman that SJ would be interested in adding at the deadline if they had the expendable assets to get it done (they don't).

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12-02-2010, 06:13 PM
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12-02-2010, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Mobile? Check
Strong and Accurate Point Shot? Check
Decent Puck Mover? Check
Solid Defensive Play? Check

He'd be the exact kind of defenceman that SJ would be interested in adding at the deadline if they had the expendable assets to get it done (they don't).
He is not the exact kind of d-man the Sharks would be interested in. They're looking for a defenseman that will get involved in the offense while being solid defensively. Beauchemin is basically a good first passer and that's it when it comes to puck-moving. They need someone with a lot more offensive IQ than Beauchemin.

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12-02-2010, 07:37 PM
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seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
He is not the exact kind of d-man the Sharks would be interested in. They're looking for a defenseman that will get involved in the offense while being solid defensively. Beauchemin is basically a good first passer and that's it when it comes to puck-moving. They need someone with a lot more offensive IQ than Beauchemin.
You're obviously listening too much to the Leafs fans who only see giveaways. One of Beauchemin's better assets his is hockey IQ, knowing when to jump into the offence and when to hang back. He's not going to lead a rush or even join it, but that's not what they would need him for.

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12-02-2010, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
You're obviously listening too much to the Leafs fans who only see giveaways. One of Beauchemin's better assets his is hockey IQ, knowing when to jump into the offence and when to hang back. He's not going to lead a rush or even join it, but that's not what they would need him for.
No, I don't care about Beauchemin's giveaway numbers. My take on him has nothing to do with your brethren and their take on anything. Beauchemin's IQ is good defensively and in being conservative. The Sharks need a d-man that will lead a rush, will join a rush, and will get involved regularly with the offense. Beauchemin is not that kind of player and that's why the Sharks don't want him.

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12-02-2010, 08:32 PM
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seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
No, I don't care about Beauchemin's giveaway numbers. My take on him has nothing to do with your brethren and their take on anything. Beauchemin's IQ is good defensively and in being conservative. The Sharks need a d-man that will lead a rush, will join a rush, and will get involved regularly with the offense. Beauchemin is not that kind of player and that's why the Sharks don't want him.
That's Dan Boyle. The Sharks need a two-way guy.

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12-02-2010, 08:51 PM
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That's Dan Boyle. The Sharks need a two-way guy.
You need more than one guy from the blue line that gets involved on the offense. It is just plain ridiculous to argue that having Dan Boyle means that they don't need another offensive presence from the point. It also is ridiculous that someone who is offensively inclined can't also be a two-way d-man.

Dan Boyle is a two-way d-man. Rob Blake was a two-way d-man. Both were offensively inclined.

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12-02-2010, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Mobile? Check
Strong and Accurate Point Shot? Check
Decent Puck Mover? Check
Solid Defensive Play? Check

He'd be the exact kind of defenceman that SJ would be interested in adding at the deadline if they had the expendable assets to get it done (they don't).


Good one, we're not fooling anyone anymore with Beauchemin.

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12-02-2010, 09:05 PM
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seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You need more than one guy from the blue line that gets involved on the offense. It is just plain ridiculous to argue that having Dan Boyle means that they don't need another offensive presence from the point. It also is ridiculous that someone who is offensively inclined can't also be a two-way d-man.

Dan Boyle is a two-way d-man. Rob Blake was a two-way d-man. Both were offensively inclined.
They do need another presence from the point, but that guy doesn't have to be a top offensive player. There are very few defenceman in this league who are excellent both offensively and defensively. The real need in SJ is for a 2-way guy, like Francois Beauchemin.

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