HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who is the Most Complete Player of All-Time?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-02-2010, 10:19 PM
  #51
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gongshow67 View Post
70's Howe
80's Trottier
90's Forsberg
Present Crosby
Interesting list but Howe is probably more 60's, Trottier mid 70's to later 80's, Forsberg mid 90's till mid 0's (Federov is probably a slightly better choice as Foppa was injured too much).

Crosby has been that guy since post lockout.

To me though at the end of the day it comes down to Orr or Howe depending on how one values longevity and I'm with The devil on this one and would take Howe.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:42 AM
  #52
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,208
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gongshow67 View Post
70's Howe
80's Trottier
90's Forsberg
Present Crosby
Howe's peak was in the 50's, although you could probably list him for the 60's too (or Mikita).

For the 70's I would say first half Bobby Orr, second half (and first half of 80's) Trottier

90's I would give to Fedorov over Forsberg because he was played as a defenseman many times.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:46 AM
  #53
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Interesting list but Howe is probably more 60's, Trottier mid 70's to later 80's, Forsberg mid 90's till mid 0's (Federov is probably a slightly better choice as Foppa was injured too much).

Crosby has been that guy since post lockout.

To me though at the end of the day it comes down to Orr or Howe depending on how one values longevity and I'm with The devil on this one and would take Howe.
maybe it would be more accurate to do roughly five year increments.

expansion to '75: orr
'75 to '80: trottier, though maybe potvin?
'80 to '85: still trottier
'85 to '90: messier?
'90 to first lockout: tough, could be mess, could be bourque
first lockout to '00: fedorov
'00 to second lockout: probably modano
second lockout to present: crosby

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:49 AM
  #54
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
maybe it would be more accurate to do roughly five year increments.

expansion to '75: orr
'75 to '80: trottier, though maybe potvin?
'80 to '85: still trottier
'85 to '90: messier?
'90 to first lockout: tough, could be mess, could be bourque
first lockout to '00: fedorov
'00 to second lockout: probably modano
second lockout to present: crosby
00 to 2nd lockout has to be Forsberg. He wasn't as good defensively as Mo, but he was better offensively and much more physical and I think that bridges the gap and then some.

Edit: Ironic since I'm the one who picked Howe over Orr because of durability? Well... this is only for a 5 year period (though Forsberg missed 1.5 seasons during the time, but...)


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-03-2010 at 01:03 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:56 AM
  #55
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,526
vCash: 500
seems like it must be orr, unless completeness includes durability.

nik jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 05:41 AM
  #56
Goalie Guru*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Durham
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
No brainer! Bryan Trottier.

Better than Orr and Howe because Trottier played the toughest position in hockey, Centre.

Trottier better than Messier because he had a far better plus minus.

Bryan Trottier is the best player of all time. Nineteen Trottier's beat nineteen Gretzky's all day, every day! Which one of the Gretzky's goes in the corners, and which one of them back checks?

Goalie Guru* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 06:15 AM
  #57
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
Datsyuk is the most complete player right now, not Crosby. Crosby, while responsible defensively, is not as good defensively as Datsyuk is offensively.

It's impressive that Crosby can put up so many points while being relatively defensively responsible, but he's not perfect there, and his GA/TOI is awful, more awful than can be bridged by his linemates, though that does have a lot to do with it. He's a great stickhandler and it's nearly impossible to get the puck off of him 1on1, and he backchecks, but he often makes overambitious plays that cause turnovers, and he can't get reacquire possession of the puck or shut players down the way others can.

Being good defensively for a high-scoring forward doesn't make you an elite two-way player in the sense that Fedorov was and Datsyuk and Zetterberg are.


Last edited by Derick*: 12-03-2010 at 06:20 AM.
Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 07:40 AM
  #58
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
maybe it would be more accurate to do roughly five year increments.

expansion to '75: orr
'75 to '80: trottier, though maybe potvin?
'80 to '85: still trottier
'85 to '90: messier?
'90 to first lockout: tough, could be mess, could be bourque
first lockout to '00: fedorov
'00 to second lockout: probably modano
second lockout to present: crosby
5 year increments does make it more accurate, I agree was going off the top of my head last night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
00 to 2nd lockout has to be Forsberg. He wasn't as good defensively as Mo, but he was better offensively and much more physical and I think that bridges the gap and then some.

Edit: Ironic since I'm the one who picked Howe over Orr because of durability? Well... this is only for a 5 year period (though Forsberg missed 1.5 seasons during the time, but...)
I'd probably take Frosberg as well but 1 1/2 seasons in a 5 year period is an awe full lot of time, might be a toss up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Datsyuk is the most complete player right now, not Crosby. Crosby, while responsible defensively, is not as good defensively as Datsyuk is offensively.

It's impressive that Crosby can put up so many points while being relatively defensively responsible, but he's not perfect there, and his GA/TOI is awful, more awful than can be bridged by his linemates, though that does have a lot to do with it. He's a great stickhandler and it's nearly impossible to get the puck off of him 1on1, and he backchecks, but he often makes overambitious plays that cause turnovers, and he can't get reacquire possession of the puck or shut players down the way others can.

Being good defensively for a high-scoring forward doesn't make you an elite two-way player in the sense that Fedorov was and Datsyuk and Zetterberg are.
Good argument here but I think team situations and line mates can account for a lot of the difference plus Crosby is really stepping it up this year defensively as well.

If anything Crosby's emergence as a goal scorer might set him apart but then again it's already in the next 5 year period.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 08:10 AM
  #59
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Datsyuk is easily the run away leader for this since the lockout.

How does Crosby get mentioned?
I'd put Plekanic or maybe even Toews ahead of Crosby, just to name two.

There's a difference between being defensively responsible like Crosby and being strong defensively like Dats or Pleks.


As of today...Dats 10 give away's, 32 take away's leading the NHL again.
Crosby by comparison....comes in a #138 with only 12 take away's and 21 give aways (28th worst in the league btw).

To put that in perpective...Mike Green has 11tk and 22 GV lol

Crosby is a hell of a player and doesn't ignore his defensive responsibilities but lets keep it real here, he's not any kind of defensive force out there.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-03-2010 at 08:23 AM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 08:33 AM
  #60
Jacques Trap*
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HHOF
Posts: 968
vCash: 500
Defensemen
Orr

Robinson
Lidstrom
Harvey
Bourque

Forwards
Trottier
Datsyuk
Yzerman
Mikita
Forsberg
Gilmour
Clarke
Schmidt

These are guys, who at thier best had very few equals at dominating on both sides of the puck.

Jacques Trap* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 08:39 AM
  #61
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Trap View Post
Defensemen
Orr

Robinson
Lidstrom
Harvey
Bourque

Forwards
Trottier
Datsyuk
Yzerman
Mikita
Forsberg
Gilmour
Clarke
Schmidt

These are guys, who at thier best had very few equals at dominating on both sides of the puck.
You forgot Fedorov and Lindros.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 08:57 AM
  #62
ShawnTHW
@ShawnTHW
 
ShawnTHW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 8,881
vCash: 500
I'd go Fedorov. I had such a hard-on for him in his time with the Wings. He is what got me into hockey.

For a current player, it HAS to be Datsyuk. Everyone else pales in comparison to him.

ShawnTHW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 10:06 AM
  #63
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,917
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
No brainer! Bryan Trottier.

Better than Orr and Howe because Trottier played the toughest position in hockey, Centre.

Trottier better than Messier because he had a far better plus minus.

Bryan Trottier is the best player of all time. Nineteen Trottier's beat nineteen Gretzky's all day, every day! Which one of the Gretzky's goes in the corners, and which one of them back checks?
Even though Orr was far better as a defenceman than Trottier was as a centre, in addition to being more complete, Trottier gets the top spot because of position?

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 10:35 AM
  #64
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Even though Orr was far better as a defenceman than Trottier was as a centre, in addition to being more complete, Trottier gets the top spot because of position?

I don't know man, I reckon it's harder to win the Art Ross as a d-man than it is for a center to play well defensively.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 11:23 AM
  #65
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,576
vCash: 500
Pavel Bure

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:19 PM
  #66
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Pavel Bure
All-Complete Team

Bure - Kovalchuk - Bondra
Green - Phaneuf
Ex. Kessel

(Goalie is pulled entire game)

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:24 PM
  #67
Reverend Mayhem
Freeway's closed man
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,036
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe come to mind.

Reverend Mayhem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:40 PM
  #68
Lee Van Cleef*
 
Lee Van Cleef*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Perth, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 8,798
vCash: 500
Pavel Brendl.

Lee Van Cleef* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:41 PM
  #69
Florentino Ariza
Registered User
 
Florentino Ariza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington DC
Country: United States
Posts: 2,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Datsyuk is easily the run away leader for this since the lockout.

How does Crosby get mentioned?
I'd put Plekanic or maybe even Toews ahead of Crosby, just to name two.

There's a difference between being defensively responsible like Crosby and being strong defensively like Dats or Pleks.


As of today...Dats 10 give away's, 32 take away's leading the NHL again.
Crosby by comparison....comes in a #138 with only 12 take away's and 21 give aways (28th worst in the league btw).

To put that in perpective...Mike Green has 11tk and 22 GV lol

Crosby is a hell of a player and doesn't ignore his defensive responsibilities but lets keep it real here, he's not any kind of defensive force out there.
I'm not going to argue about Crosby v Datsyuk defensively. But maybe you should watch some more Pens games bro

Florentino Ariza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 12:45 PM
  #70
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,574
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
I'm not going to argue about Crosby v Datsyuk defensively. But maybe you should watch some more Pens games bro
Maybe you should watch some more Detroit games too.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 01:02 PM
  #71
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
I'm not going to argue about Crosby v Datsyuk defensively. But maybe you should watch some more Pens games bro
Good. I wouldn't either if I were you.

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 01:13 PM
  #72
therealkoho
Gary says it's A-OK
 
therealkoho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: the Prior
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,847
vCash: 500
Most complete player?

Does this mean someone who can do it all or has the best stats based on a random set of parameters?

Ive seen many great players, I've seen players that are otherworldy great but the most complete player I've ever seen, a guy who could do all things required in the game at elite levels is:


therealkoho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 01:27 PM
  #73
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
00 to 2nd lockout has to be Forsberg. He wasn't as good defensively as Mo, but he was better offensively and much more physical and I think that bridges the gap and then some.

Edit: Ironic since I'm the one who picked Howe over Orr because of durability? Well... this is only for a 5 year period (though Forsberg missed 1.5 seasons during the time, but...)
hmm, i can buy forsberg as the most complete player of that time frame. particularly when i mentioned fedorov for the previous five years.

to me, durability (if we think of durability over, say, a 10+ year span) is not as important as consistency when talking about a complete player. neither forsberg nor fedorov (nor lindros) had that, for different reasons. but when they were on the top of their games, absolutely forsberg was more complete than modano. an extremely well-rounded guy like modano maybe would shift this discussion toward the francis types who are really really good at most things, but truly elite at few.

but i think this indicates that we haven't seen a forward as consistently complete as trottier in a long time (maybe as long as some posters on this board have been watching hockey), and just goes to show how special of a player #19 was.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 01:33 PM
  #74
tomi2
Registered User
 
tomi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 207
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
All-Complete Team

Bure - Kovalchuk - Bondra
Green - Phaneuf
Ex. Kessel

(Goalie is pulled entire game)
I lol'd. Yeah, I know I have a bad sense of humour

tomi2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2010, 01:36 PM
  #75
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
All-Complete Team

Bure - Kovalchuk - Bondra
Green - Phaneuf
Ex. Kessel

(Goalie is pulled entire game)
tkachuk janney bertuzzi
green housley
x. heatley

with bure on that team, you might actually win a playoff game or two. not a problem with these defensive stalwarts.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.