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Who is the Most Complete Player of All-Time?

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Old
12-04-2010, 10:57 AM
  #101
Ogie Goldthorpe
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Orr... and there is no "or"

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12-04-2010, 09:23 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
He's not dude, you can not sit there and watch Dats or Fedorov, then watch Crosby and possibly come away thinking is he any where near that level defensively.

Been a lot of over-rating of Crosby on these boards lately, a sickening amount really.
Just recently we had some folk trying to contend that he's on par with Gretzky offensively and now we have one of the same people and yourself trying to say he's close to being as good defensively as Dats or Fedorov.
Like I said, Crosby is a hell of a player and deserves a lot of praise but I say again, keep it real.
Crosby is good defensively for a star scoring player. He's not an elite defensive player in the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg are. If anyone is listing Crosby as the most complete player you can tell they're basing their knowledge of his defensively play entirely on what they've heard about him and not from watching.

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12-04-2010, 11:26 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Crosby is good defensively for a star scoring player. He's not an elite defensive player in the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg are. If anyone is listing Crosby as the most complete player you can tell they're basing their knowledge of his defensively play entirely on what they've heard about him and not from watching.

Never said he wasn't good defensively, I said he doesn't ignore his responsibilities and does his job but that's a long way from being an actual defensive force or being strong defensively now isn't it.

I have watched Crosby, quite often actually and all I can say to you is to suggest catching some games involving Dats or Pleks to see what actually being strong defensively is really all about.


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Old
12-05-2010, 12:02 AM
  #104
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Not saying he's #1, but Trottier definitely deserves more love.

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12-05-2010, 02:45 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
He's not dude, you can not sit there and watch Dats or Fedorov, then watch Crosby and possibly come away thinking is he any where near that level defensively.

Been a lot of over-rating of Crosby on these boards lately, a sickening amount really.
Just recently we had some folk trying to contend that he's on par with Gretzky offensively and now we have one of the same people and yourself trying to say he's close to being as good defensively as Dats or Fedorov.
Like I said, Crosby is a hell of a player and deserves a lot of praise but I say again, keep it real.
I'm curious to know how many points do you think Gretzky would have at this point in this current season, if he were in his prime.

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12-05-2010, 03:22 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
I'm curious to know how many points do you think Gretzky would have at this point in this current season, if he were in his prime.
Well lets see, 5 seasons and a bit, about 430 games so far.....I would give him 750 conservatively to around 900 optimally.

Not unreasonable imo, that's 120-130 as a rookie, 140-150 in his second year with 160-170 in each of the next 3 with around 55 points in 27-28 games this season.

Honestly, that's conservative as I think there's a good possibility that he could throw up a 180-190+ season in there just for good measure heh.

Lemieux wouldn't be far off the same only his goals would make up a larger percentage of his totals.

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12-05-2010, 07:52 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
I'm curious to know how many points do you think Gretzky would have at this point in this current season, if he were in his prime.
What had Gretzky done in his first 5 years in the NHL?

Won 4 Art Ross trophies, and missed out on a 5th via a tie-breaker by scoring 2 fewer goals than Marcel Dionne. Led the league in goals 3 times, and assists 5 times. Set a new NHL record for goals in a season, and set a new assist record in 3 straight seasons. Led his team in goals, assists and points all 5 years, having more assists than his next highest scoring teammate in 3 seasons.

In the playoffs he led his team in scoring in all 5 seasons as well. (Gretzky had only one playoff in his career where he didn't at least tie for the team scoring lead.) He led the playoffs in assists and points twice. His team won one Stanley Cup after losing in the Final the year before.

So odds are he'd be leading the league in both goals and assists for a minimum of 52 points.

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12-05-2010, 08:43 AM
  #108
Dennis Bonvie
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Why is Gretzky being discussed in this thread?

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12-05-2010, 10:40 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Why is Gretzky being discussed in this thread?
Probably the same reason they are discussing Crosby in the Lidtröm/Bourque/Potvin thread

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12-05-2010, 10:41 AM
  #110
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Why is Gretzky being discussed in this thread?
Dont know why it got double posted. A mod can remove this one.

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12-05-2010, 12:05 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
I'm curious to know how many points do you think Gretzky would have at this point in this current season, if he were in his prime.
In this season right now 2010-'11? Well Crosby has 46 points in 28 games. The next highest is Stamkos at 40. Gretzky sits no worse than two points a game. Give him 56 minimum.

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12-05-2010, 12:39 PM
  #112
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Well couple of things here. Washington and Philly leads the NHL in goals right now with 92.

55 points (Gretzky's proposed total) out 92 is 60% of a teams offense.

Off the top of my head even Gretzky never scored at that clip.
his peak was around 50% I believe, so for him to have 55 points at this stage of the season, the team he would be playing on would have over 110 goals at this point.

Maybe Wayne finds the perfect situation were the coach tells him to go all out on offense and not worry about defense at all (Not sure which team that would be in the current NHL open to suggestions).

To be fair though we should replace him on Pittsburgh were Kunitz would have 20 plus goals by now with Gretzky no doubt eh?

I find it very hard that there is any situation in the NHL today were Wayne has the affect of providing an extra 18 goals in 27-28 games on any team given current conditions.

Remember he is not going to get the time and space that he got back in the early 80's, his skating would be in the lower half of the league as well, but skating wasn't his game his vision and determination was for sure.

Just watching the St. Louis Edmonton game yesterday, hardly top teams, the speed of the game was outstanding and I really wonder how Wayne would fare in that type of game.

I'm sure that he would be a very good player but not even sure that he would be one of the top players in the league, the game has really changed that much since the early 80's.

to be fair though we should really start a thread on the top 10 best 5 seasons of all time, and reasons why that player should be included ect...


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Old
12-05-2010, 12:54 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well couple of things here. Washington and Philly leads the NHL in goals right now with 92.

55 points (Gretzky's proposed total) out 92 is 60% of a teams offense.

Off the top of my head even Gretzky never scored at that clip.
his peak was around 50% I believe, so for him to have 55 points at this stage of the season, the team he would be playing on would have over 110 goals at this point.

Maybe Wayne finds the perfect situation were the coach tells him to go all out on offense and not worry about defense at all (Not sure which team that would be in the current NHL open to suggestions).

To be fair though we should replace him on Pittsburgh were Kunitz would have 20 plus goals by now with Gretzky no doubt eh?

I find it very hard that there is any situation in the NHL today were Wayne has the affect of providing an extra 18 goals in 27-28 games on any team given current conditions.

Remember he is not going to get the time and space that he got back in the early 80's, his skating would be in the lower half of the league as well, but skating wasn't his game his vision and determination was for sure.

Just watching the St. Louis Edmonton game yesterday, hardly top teams, the speed of the game was outstanding and I really wonder how Wayne would fare in that type of game.

I'm sure that he would be a very good player but not even sure that he would be one of the top players in the league, the game has really changed that much since the early 80's.

to be fair though we should really start a thread on the top 10 best 5 seasons of all time, and reasons why that player should be included ect...
You're correct that Gretzky at his peak was in on about 50% of the Oilers' goals. But add Gretzky to the correct Flyers or Capitals and don't you think they'll score quite a few more goals as a team than they are right now? Gretzky is the biggest reason the Oilers were so high scoring.

As for "the game has changed since the 80s, so I don't even know if Gretzky would be a top player...." Laughable. As pointed out many times, "products of the 1980s" like Ray Bourque and Mario Lemieux were still the league's elite when Nicklas Lidstrom was hitting his stride.

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Old
12-05-2010, 12:55 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well couple of things here. Washington and Philly leads the NHL in goals right now with 92.

55 points (Gretzky's proposed total) out 92 is 60% of a teams offense.

Off the top of my head even Gretzky never scored at that clip.
his peak was around 50% I believe, so for him to have 55 points at this stage of the season, the team he would be playing on would have over 110 goals at this point.
Flawed info equals a flawed conclusion.
Try it the other way, if Gretz had 55 points and you say he only averaged around 50% of his teams scoring, it would be much more likely that his team would have 110 goals not 92.

Considering Gretzky's Oilers routinely out scored every other team in the league by around 60-80 goals, this again would support my conclusion over yours.

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12-05-2010, 01:14 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well couple of things here. Washington and Philly leads the NHL in goals right now with 92.

55 points (Gretzky's proposed total) out 92 is 60% of a teams offense.

Off the top of my head even Gretzky never scored at that clip.
his peak was around 50% I believe, so for him to have 55 points at this stage of the season, the team he would be playing on would have over 110 goals at this point.

Maybe Wayne finds the perfect situation were the coach tells him to go all out on offense and not worry about defense at all (Not sure which team that would be in the current NHL open to suggestions).

To be fair though we should replace him on Pittsburgh were Kunitz would have 20 plus goals by now with Gretzky no doubt eh?

I find it very hard that there is any situation in the NHL today were Wayne has the affect of providing an extra 18 goals in 27-28 games on any team given current conditions.

Remember he is not going to get the time and space that he got back in the early 80's, his skating would be in the lower half of the league as well, but skating wasn't his game his vision and determination was for sure.

Just watching the St. Louis Edmonton game yesterday, hardly top teams, the speed of the game was outstanding and I really wonder how Wayne would fare in that type of game.

I'm sure that he would be a very good player but not even sure that he would be one of the top players in the league, the game has really changed that much since the early 80's.

to be fair though we should really start a thread on the top 10 best 5 seasons of all time, and reasons why that player should be included ect...
Great point about the teams overall % of offense. I was thinking about this a short while ago to go figure out what % of his teams points he would have to be in on, and realized that yeah it is next to impossible in today's league.

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12-05-2010, 01:24 PM
  #116
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Complete? or Two-Way. Both are very different to me. Complete would be someone who can play all 3 zones, can fight and can hit. To me that's Orr. No I haven't seen him play other than on ESPN classics, but from what I've read and heard, he was the most dominant player on the ice at all times and could get physical.

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12-05-2010, 01:45 PM
  #117
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I'm sure that he would be a very good player but not even sure that he would be one of the top players in the league, the game has really changed that much since the early 80's.
This statement is ridiculous. Did you follow the NHL at all during the late 1990s?

Let's look at the 1997 season:

- Gretzky was 36 years old and visibly slower and less agile than he was earlier in his career.
- He was still dealing with the long-term impact of a back injury caused by a vicious Suter crosscheck.
- He was on a good but not elite team (5th in the conference with a 38-34-10 record).

Gretzky scored 97 points that year, good for 4th in the league in scoring. (That point total would have made him a top five scorer during each of the past three seasons).

That was during the Dead Puck Era (clearly less open for elite players compared to today), while he was obviously past his prime physically.

And just I don't get accused of cherry-picking one year that makes Gretzky look better than he actually was:

- in the next year (1998), Gretzky was 37. He was still visibly slower and agile than he was during his prime.
- The Rangers got a lot worse that year (no offense Rangers fans) and posted an awful 25-39-18 record.
- Gretzky actually led the league in assists that year and was third only to (healthy & prime) Jagr & Forsberg in scoring. He posted 90 points.
- This was one of the lowest scoring years in NHL history, with just 5.3 goals per game.

I'm pretty sure a young, healthy Gretzky, playing in a league that's more open for its star players (like the NHL today) on an average (not even good) team could add quite a few points to his total.

====

Even if you somehow assume that Gretzky couldn't improve his scoring in today's more open scoring environment, with his youth and his health, he would be no worse than a top five scorer today (unless you're arguing that the NHL has improved so much since 1997 that Gretzky's accomplishments from then wouldn't translate into today's NHL -- which is contradicted by the fact that many players from that era, including Lidstrom, Brodeur, Jagr, Sakic, Hasek, Selanne, etc., have had excellent post-lockout seasons).


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12-05-2010, 06:18 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Never said he wasn't good defensively, I said he doesn't ignore his responsibilities and does his job but that's a long way from being an actual defensive force or being strong defensively now isn't it.

I have watched Crosby, quite often actually and all I can say to you is to suggest catching some games involving Dats or Pleks to see what actually being strong defensively is really all about.
My post was defending what you said.

I said "He's not an elite defensive player in the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg are. If anyone is listing Crosby as the most complete player you can tell they're basing their knowledge of his defensively play entirely on what they've heard about him and not from watching," and you responded "I have watched Crosby, quite often actually and all I can say to you is to suggest catching some games involving Dats or Pleks to see what actually being strong defensively is really all about," which is almost the exact same thing

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12-05-2010, 08:16 PM
  #119
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Amongst players I've seen, who were very good to excellent defensively, offensively and physically. Basically guys that would excell in any situation, in any style and in any type game:

Forwards
Clarke
Trottier
Messier
Forsberg
Neely

D-men
Robinson
Potvin
Chelios
Bourque
Stevens/Pronger (I'm torn. Pronger never reached Stevens peak offensive totals, but Pronger did put up very good offensive numbers in his elite defensive seasons, whereas Stevens did not)


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12-05-2010, 08:21 PM
  #120
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I can only think of one player who is historically elite both offensively and defensively... so I'll go with Orr.

great pick...would put Ray Bourque right up there too....

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12-05-2010, 08:37 PM
  #121
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While Orr and Howe were the first two that came to mind, I'm somewhat surprised by the little amount of love that Bobby Clarke is getting.
Gretzky as a young player was told by his dad to look how Clarke parks himself behind the net ( later named Gretzky's office) & that's how Gretzky started playing behind the net.guess it worked.

watch Legends Of Hockey for proof.

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12-05-2010, 08:43 PM
  #122
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great pick...would put Ray Bourque right up there too....
No. No defencemen is even close to "right up there with Orr" in regards to elite completeness.

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12-05-2010, 10:02 PM
  #123
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Just watching the St. Louis Edmonton game yesterday, hardly top teams, the speed of the game was outstanding and I really wonder how Wayne would fare in that type of game.

I'm sure that he would be a very good player but not even sure that he would be one of the top players in the league, the game has really changed that much since the early 80's.
For starters I always find it puzzling when people say "well the game is faster now, I don't know how Wayne would fare. I believe Hockey Outsider mentioned just how good Gretzky still was at 36-37 years old, WELL past his prime in a low scoring era as long as...............12 years ago!

But I'll bring up something that always debunks the theory that yesterday's superstars couldn't make it today. What you are saying is that the AVERAGE player has gotten a bit bigger and faster since the 1980s right? I agree. But why do people believe that the AVERAGE joes of the NHL would improve but the superstars wouldn't? In other words if Gretzky has the training of today's athletes he'd be faster and stronger too. There has never been any evidence that Gretzky wouldn't be just as good if not better in the NHL today. Observe:

No red line - anyone that saw Gretzky might just snicker at the fits he'd cause opponents with this one

A team on a power play automatically has a faceoff in the opposing end - this didn't happen in the 1980s or even 1990s. Not a big deal, but there has been many a power play goal scored off the draw that otherwise wouldn't have occured there

Less clutching and grabbing - sure there's the trap and coaching has become more defensive minded but things are easier for the skilled players when no one is tugging and hooking onto you


Bottom line is this, Gretzky didn't excel in the NHL because he was fast. He excelled because he was smart and had vision. This is something I think is Crosby's best attribute as well. He's faster than Gretzky but his anticipation and hockey sense are what make him what he is. Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else, that's why he was great. That translates into the best player on the ice in any era.

Also let's look at John Tavares by the time his career is over. His skating was worse than Gretzky's compared to his peers. Yet he broke Gretzky's goal record in the OHL as a 16 year old. If you watch Tavares he doesn't blow by defenders either, he's just smart. Now Tavares is not going to have Gretzky's career, but he'll have a great one and it just goes to show you how a smart player will always be elite in any era.

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12-06-2010, 03:10 PM
  #124
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No. No defencemen is even close to "right up there with Orr" in regards to elite completeness.

didnt say he was better than #4 at all...just saying he was up there in overall play which is the subject of this thread...#4 is my fav of all time,#77 is second....Ray was not as good as Orr,but don't dismiss him as long way away either....

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12-06-2010, 04:09 PM
  #125
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didnt say he was better than #4 at all...just saying he was up there in overall play which is the subject of this thread...#4 is my fav of all time,#77 is second....Ray was not as good as Orr,but don't dismiss him as long way away either....
Once again, no. Orr stands alone among defencemen in terms of overall play. And quite frankly noone is even close to "right up there" as you stated.

You can say that other defencemen are up there defensively with Orr, but none of those guys even come close to Orr's offensively ability. Bourque himself was great offensively. Even so, his offensive ability pales in comparison to Orr. They're not in the same conversation in this regard. Orr stands alone.

In addition, Orr possessed a mean streak that Bourque can't compare with.

Bourque was a great defencemen - one of the best ever - there's no question about that. But Bourque and every other defencemen to ever lace them up simply do not compare to Orr in terms of overall play.

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