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Old
12-03-2010, 10:29 AM
  #51
zeroG
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Also, while I agree with you about DeBoer's days being numbered, I don't think this is his fault. I blame him for last year, but this year hasn't been for lack of effort on most nights. This team is just not talented enough.
i don't agree at all. when the team is still playing hard for the coach, competing every night and, objectively speaking, isn't really underachieving, you don't talk about coaching changes.

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Compared to what Yzerman (Tampa) and Dudley (Atlanta) have done this season, I am underwhelmed by Tallon's performance so far.
have you considered that perhaps this was tallon's aim after all? ice a competitive team that he could sell to both the players and fans but one that really wouldn't be able to fight its way out of the cellar, thus achieving another lottery pick? maybe i'm just being cynical here....

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I don't understand why you guys are still trying to analyze why we lose.

We're just a bad team with bad players, plain and simple.
you are INcorrect, sir. we've got a few excellent players and some very good complimentary players and, truth be told, we are actually pretty good as a team. we compete (just about) every night and have managed to stay ahead of the curve 5 on 5, which is pretty damn impressive. so, no. we are, however, not going to win many games when the top guys you're counting on for goals aren't producing. we don't need a kovulchuk but we do need more consistent finishing.

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12-03-2010, 10:32 AM
  #52
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you are INcorrect, sir. we've got a few excellent players and some very good complimentary players and, truth be told, we are actually pretty good as a team. we compete (just about) every night and have managed to stay ahead of the curve 5 on 5, which is pretty damn impressive. so, no. we are, however, not going to win many games when the top guys you're counting on for goals aren't producing. we don't need a kovulchuk but we do need more consistent finishing.
Sweeten it up however you like, but we can't score, can't score with the man advantage, our PK is slipping, and we consistently manage to give away games.

We're bad. This would be a lot easier on everyone if people just realized this. It's not some mystical combination of coaching, effort, and chemistry that we lack. We just lack talent.

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12-03-2010, 10:49 AM
  #53
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Not a fan of Garrison so it was frustrating seeing him epic fail on that clearing attempt that caused the late goal. Garrison would be fine if he were complimented with some better guys around him but we have Allen, McCabe, and Wideman all as mediocre skaters. Allen is probably the next best skater of those 3. Though McCabe and Wideman also provide offense, that gives us four relatively poor skaters on the backend. I know you can succeed with guys like that in your lineup, but only Ellerby and Kulikov are good skaters out of the bunch of dmen we have. Our defense hasn't been our biggest problem so this isn't that important compared to our lack of finish (WTF is Frolik's shot so terrible for?) but it's nice to have a fast, mobile defensive core. Can't come soon enough for Robak and Gudbranson to be up here and established along with Kuli and Ellerby (who looks to be a legitimate player at least recently). Garrison as a 5th dman is fine with those guys as your top 4, but I'm just tired of average skating defensmen. McCabe always looks lost and like he's lolligagging out there. His only redeeming quality is his massive slapshot IMO.

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12-03-2010, 10:50 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Southern Hockey View Post
Sweeten it up however you like, but we can't score, can't score with the man advantage, our PK is slipping, and we consistently manage to give away games.

We're bad. This would be a lot easier on everyone if people just realized this. It's not some mystical combination of coaching, effort, and chemistry that we lack. We just lack talent.
We don't give away games. We are .871 when leading after one and .800 when leading after two. I wouldn't call that consistently giving away games.

This team lacks high end talent. One really good offensive player on this team could make a huge difference. Two and I would all but guarantee a playoff spot.

We're not bad. You're wrong. We're missing one or two elite offensive players.

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12-03-2010, 10:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
We don't give away games. We are .871 when leading after one and .800 when leading after two. I wouldn't call that consistently giving away games.

This team lacks high end talent. One really good offensive player on this team could make a huge difference. Two and I would all but guarantee a playoff spot.

We're not bad. You're wrong. We're missing one or two elite offensive players.
Get us two consistent scorers (I'm not talking about a superstars, just a couple higher-end talented guys like Pat Sharp, Pavelski, Jeff Carter, Martin Havlat etc. and you'd shift Weiss and Frolik down into a 2nd line slot (though these two don't even really look like second liners this year yet) and you'd have solid 1st line production and theoretically, excellent second line production. When the 2nd liners are forced to play into the 1st line slots, the talent is diluted where 3rd liners are ending up on the 2nd line. We have an abundance of solid, good 3rd and 4th line talent-Dvorak, Higgins, Matthias, Bernier (good tweener guy b/t 2nd and 3rd line if needed), Hordichuk, Olesz, etc. Regardless, I'd say only Booth could hold his own on a first line elsewhere around the league and that'd be on a weaker team since IMO he's more of a great 2nd liner. Frolik and Weiss are second-liners and now that Weiss doesn't have Horton to feed it to, his numbers and production are taking a hit.

Bringing in a more legitimate first line guy would not only increase the production that guy would bring, but it would bump Weiss, Frolik, and Booth back into more comfortable spots and increase their production as well, sort of a synergistic effect if you will.

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12-03-2010, 11:45 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
We don't give away games. We are .871 when leading after one and .800 when leading after two. I wouldn't call that consistently giving away games.

This team lacks high end talent. One really good offensive player on this team could make a huge difference. Two and I would all but guarantee a playoff spot.

We're not bad. You're wrong. We're missing one or two elite offensive players.
agree. also, don't know where this foolishness about giving away games has come from. it's absolutely not the case. we're now 8-2 when leading after 2. just so happens that the last two times have been those 2 losses.

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Get us two consistent scorers (I'm not talking about a superstars, just a couple higher-end talented guys like Pat Sharp, Pavelski, Jeff Carter, Martin Havlat etc. and you'd shift Weiss and Frolik down into a 2nd line slot (though these two don't even really look like second liners this year yet) and you'd have solid 1st line production and theoretically, excellent second line production. When the 2nd liners are forced to play into the 1st line slots, the talent is diluted where 3rd liners are ending up on the 2nd line. We have an abundance of solid, good 3rd and 4th line talent-Dvorak, Higgins, Matthias, Bernier (good tweener guy b/t 2nd and 3rd line if needed), Hordichuk, Olesz, etc. Regardless, I'd say only Booth could hold his own on a first line elsewhere around the league and that'd be on a weaker team since IMO he's more of a great 2nd liner. Frolik and Weiss are second-liners and now that Weiss doesn't have Horton to feed it to, his numbers and production are taking a hit.

Bringing in a more legitimate first line guy would not only increase the production that guy would bring, but it would bump Weiss, Frolik, and Booth back into more comfortable spots and increase their production as well, sort of a synergistic effect if you will.
well said. i agree.

if we were getting solid productivity from weiss, booth and frolik (not great, but good), we wouldn't have to be perfect every game. as it is, we aren't and we do. that could change but at this point, i hope it doesn't. if we can pick high again and lasso a kid who could contribute AND pluck someone from your list (for example), it'd be ideal.

i think (hope) that's what tallon is shooting for.

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Old
12-03-2010, 11:52 AM
  #57
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I'd like to see get a guy who can feed Booth and Santo the puck and be able to keep with their speed. Imo, those are two huge things lacking in guys who play on their line.

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12-03-2010, 12:44 PM
  #58
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As a Hockey writer said:
"Another spirited effort ending on a demoralizing defeat"

Our best players have not even achieved the level of "Mediocrisy" if they would at least a get to the level of "Good" not "Great" we would not be in this mess.

Frolic is regressing epically, his stride, speed, weak shots, smarts...he is a mess this year, would be a shame to see him go, he is one of my favorites players.

The last Power-play was just embarrassing to watch.
Steven Weiss needs to get his $h*t together, he is a very capable forward, but he does not look like one this year.

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12-03-2010, 01:01 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i don't agree at all. when the team is still playing hard for the coach, competing every night and, objectively speaking, isn't really underachieving, you don't talk about coaching changes.


You just agreed with me...

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12-03-2010, 02:13 PM
  #60
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You just agreed with me...
you did say you didn't blame him this year but you had agreed his days are numbered. i don't think that is necessarily true. even if tallon would prefer to have his own guy back there, he's gotta look at the effort pete's able to coax from this team even in the face of demoralizing losses like last night and ask himself "can i find someone better?".

while i agree with the sentiment that he was less than effective last year, pet's done a good job this year, in spite of the PP issues. considering he's still has room to grow as a young coach, i don't think i'd write him off so quickly.

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12-03-2010, 02:18 PM
  #61
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you did say you didn't blame him this year but you had agreed his days are numbered. i don't think that is necessarily true. even if tallon would prefer to have his own guy back there, he's gotta look at the effort pete's able to coax from this team even in the face of demoralizing losses like last night and ask himself "can i find someone better?".

while i agree with the sentiment that he was less than effective last year, pet's done a good job this year, in spite of the PP issues. considering he's still has room to grow as a young coach, i don't think i'd write him off so quickly.
Basically is there any other coach who is going to get more out of this team? I doubt it. A coaching change wont fix our problems.

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Old
12-03-2010, 03:26 PM
  #62
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Compared to what Yzerman (Tampa) and Dudley (Atlanta) have done this season, I am underwhelmed by Tallon's performance so far.
Tallon isn't building a team to win this year. That's why. Dudley traded a bunch of top picks and prospect to get Byfuglien and Ladd. Tampa was a team that was closer to competing than the Panthers were. Yzerman made one very astute move(Gagne), then the rest of his moves were just minor tweaks. Tallon is not a guy that makes immediate improvements, that's not his track record, so it shouldn't have been expected. In fact at this point he's probably content if the team continues to struggle, draft day is his biggest day of the year.

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12-03-2010, 03:49 PM
  #63
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Of course you are lol
In a comparison of moves Tallon made vs Dudley has made. Tallon brought in offensive blueliner Dennis Wideman 2-10-12 and a -5 with a $3,937,500 per year salary and a first round draft pick at the cost of RW Nathan Horton 8-11-19 +14 $4,000,000 and C Greg Campbell 2-4-6 +2 $1,100,000. Dudley brought in offensive blueliner Dustin Byfuglien 10-17-27 and a +4 with a $3,000,000 per year salary, LW Ben Eager 3-3-6 +4 $965,000, D Brent Sopel 1-1-2 +4 $2,333,333 and a prospect at the cost of a first round draft pick, a second round draft pick, C Marty Reasoner 4-7-11 +5 $1,150,000 and RW Joey Crabb 0-1-1 +1 $585,000.

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12-03-2010, 04:18 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
you did say you didn't blame him this year but you had agreed his days are numbered. i don't think that is necessarily true. even if tallon would prefer to have his own guy back there, he's gotta look at the effort pete's able to coax from this team even in the face of demoralizing losses like last night and ask himself "can i find someone better?".

while i agree with the sentiment that he was less than effective last year, pet's done a good job this year, in spite of the PP issues. considering he's still has room to grow as a young coach, i don't think i'd write him off so quickly.
I'm not disagreeing; I'm just saying that Tallon might end up wanting his own guy in here to coach the team. DeBoer's nearing his 3rd consecutive year of missing the playoffs. Whether it's his fault or not, not too many coaches survive such a stretch.

Tallon might want someone new, and the organization might want someone new, as well, just for the sake of getting fans somewhat excited again. Y'know...change of attitude, ra-ra, we've been through this before, etc. Something new always gets the fans excited, and owners always like fan excitement, especially when the franchise is on the verge of missing the playoffs for an 11th consecutive year/on the verge of losing some of the little fanbase they have.

Some decisions made by franchises are PR decisions.

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12-03-2010, 04:21 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
In a comparison of moves Tallon made vs Dudley has made. Tallon brought in offensive blueliner Dennis Wideman 2-10-12 and a -5 with a $3,937,500 per year salary and a first round draft pick at the cost of RW Nathan Horton 8-11-19 +14 $4,000,000 and C Greg Campbell 2-4-6 +2 $1,100,000. Dudley brought in offensive blueliner Dustin Byfuglien 10-17-27 and a +4 with a $3,000,000 per year salary, LW Ben Eager 3-3-6 +4 $965,000, D Brent Sopel 1-1-2 +4 $2,333,333 and a prospect at the cost of a first round draft pick, a second round draft pick, C Marty Reasoner 4-7-11 +5 $1,150,000 and RW Joey Crabb 0-1-1 +1 $585,000.
So?

You're ignoring the fact that Tallon also brought in Santorelli for nothing, brought in Weaver for nothing, Higgins for nothing, etc.

The guy you mentioned in the Byfuglien trade (Reasoner) ended up with the Panthers for Taffe, and that too has been a very solid bargain pickup.

Tallon has made good moves.

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12-03-2010, 04:30 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Tallon isn't building a team to win this year. That's why. Dudley traded a bunch of top picks and prospect to get Byfuglien and Ladd. Tampa was a team that was closer to competing than the Panthers were. Yzerman made one very astute move(Gagne), then the rest of his moves were just minor tweaks. Tallon is not a guy that makes immediate improvements, that's not his track record, so it shouldn't have been expected. In fact at this point he's probably content if the team continues to struggle, draft day is his biggest day of the year.
I'm curious about this slow improvement, would it work with Panthers, if this year is bust again (no playoffs), are they going to give two free tickets for each season ticket holder in order to fill arena?

JOL

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12-03-2010, 06:02 PM
  #67
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So?

You're ignoring the fact that Tallon also brought in Santorelli for nothing, brought in Weaver for nothing, Higgins for nothing, etc.

Tallon has made good moves.
$3.1 million dollars, the combined salaries of Santorelli, Weaver, Higgins, and a fifth round draft choice is not nothing. Santorelli was an outstanding trade, thing is, I think Santos was mainly responsible for it. Reasoner was a good but hardly significant trade. Weaver was a fair signing. Higgins is a nothing for $1.6mil. Berner isn't making me do handstands for 3 goals. Grabner has been productive, for the Islanders. As for Wideman, who would you rather have, him for $4 mil, or Byfuglien for $3 mil? The value of the draft picks acquired are to be determined.

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12-03-2010, 06:11 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
$3.1 million dollars, the combined salaries of Santorelli, Weaver, Higgins, and a fifth round draft choice is not nothing. Santorelli was an outstanding trade, thing is, I think Santos was mainly responsible for it. Reasoner was a good but hardly significant trade. Weaver was a fair signing. Higgins is a nothing for $1.6mil. Berner isn't making me do handstands for 3 goals. Grabner has been productive, for the Islanders. As for Wideman, who would you rather have, him for $4 mil, or Byfuglien for $3 mil? The value of the draft picks acquired are to be determined.
Higgins was a fair signing for $1.6 mil. End of the year, he'll probably still put up about 15 goals, and is a solid role player. That's about what he's worth. If Grabner has been productive for the Islanders, then Higgins and Bernier are being "productive" for the Panthers. One or the other.

As for the Wideman/Byfuglien comparison...Byfuglien has turned out to be the best move of the offseason. That's not a knock on Tallon; just credit Atlanta. Hindsight is 20/20; some people didn't even think Byfuglien should've been moved back to D, and should've stayed at wing. That doesn't make the Wideman deal a bad deal. He's produced offensively, and for the most part, has been our best D man this year.

If Santos gets credit for bringing in Santorelli, then I guess Tallon still deserves credit for bringing in Santos to help him out, anyway.

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12-03-2010, 06:23 PM
  #69
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GP , until you ( or anyone else) have been in Tallons shoes , you can't judge him, he has alot of mess to straighten up, we are finally rebuilding the right way and under the right staff. Its going to take time , I know it sucks to wait because we have been waiting for a long time. At the end of the day , if losing another season or two is going to help the team in the long run , than i am all for it. In response to your signing comparsions, just because a player signs with a team for one amount , it doesnt mean they would sign with us for the same amount or sign with us at all . We dont know the difficulties tallon faces everyday or behind the scences stuff tallon has to juggle. I do not get people getting upset that we are losing this season , when tallon didnt announce or convey that this was the season they were making the playoffs . He just came on board , so playoffs is at least another season away.

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12-03-2010, 07:40 PM
  #70
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I'm curious about this slow improvement, would it work with Panthers, if this year is bust again (no playoffs), are they going to give two free tickets for each season ticket holder in order to fill arena?

JOL
Doesn't really matter, Tallon is gonna do what he has to do, and he should be allowed to just do his thing. The last ten years are not Tallon's fault. I know it sucks, but Tallon made it clear before he took over that he had a specific plan, so he should be allowed to execute that plan.

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12-03-2010, 07:56 PM
  #71
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have you considered that perhaps this was tallon's aim after all? ice a competitive team that he could sell to both the players and fans but one that really wouldn't be able to fight its way out of the cellar, thus achieving another lottery pick? maybe i'm just being cynical here....
No, I kind of agree. But the way I see it is he built a team that was going to do only one of two things:1)flourish if some players surprised this year or 2)tank. I think he tried to avoid icing a team that could get stuck in the middle. If certain players didn't step up bigtime, then this team was going to sink. And that's what has happened so far.

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12-03-2010, 08:00 PM
  #72
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[QUOTE=Erick;29337437 If Grabner has been productive for the Islanders, then Higgins and Bernier are being "productive" for the Panthers. One or the other.[/QUOTE]

I go along with you on Bernier but Higgins, not so much. Grabner 19 games 6-3-9, Higgins 23 games 3-3-6.

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12-03-2010, 08:25 PM
  #73
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I go along with you on Bernier but Higgins, not so much. Grabner 19 games 6-3-9, Higgins 23 games 3-3-6.
The biggest problem with this team isn't that Tallon didn't add the right talent.

The biggest problem is that Weiss, Booth & Frolik just haven't been very good.

Outside of Vokoun, is there anyone on this team who you'd consider one of the top 100 players in the NHL?

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12-03-2010, 08:43 PM
  #74
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No, I kind of agree. But the way I see it is he built a team that was going to do only one of two things:1)flourish if some players surprised this year or 2)tank. I think he tried to avoid icing a team that could get stuck in the middle. If certain players didn't step up bigtime, then this team was going to sink. And that's what has happened so far.
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
The biggest problem with this team isn't that Tallon didn't add the right talent.

The biggest problem is that Weiss, Booth & Frolik just haven't been very good.

Outside of Vokoun, is there anyone on this team who you'd consider one of the top 100 players in the NHL?
amen.

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12-04-2010, 12:43 AM
  #75
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Tallon's decisions have been solid and you could tell he has a plan, long term but still a plan, I do not question his vision and at the same time I understand the frustration as I am a frustrated fan.

Many of our loses have been heartbreaking, and for some reason this team has to work really hard in order to pull out a win, I can not recall a game this year where the Panthers got an easy win.

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