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01-04-2011, 05:03 PM
  #201
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Markov didn't become a genuine top pairing defender until he was like 26-27 years old, he may have been on our top pairing but that's just by default we had a terrible team for a very long time. He had a great year in 2002-2003 before the lockout, and followed it up with a so-so 2003-2004. So he had mustered up 1 good-to-great season in his first four seasons in the league. PK has a ton of time to play catch up...
PK plays a different style game. More rock em sock em and more rushing...Markov is more cerebral like Lidstrom.

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01-04-2011, 05:56 PM
  #202
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PK plays a different style game. More rock em sock em and more rushing...Markov is more cerebral like Lidstrom.
I agree, he has a lot of assets that Markov never pocessed too. There is a lot of time left on Subban's clock before we determine exactly where his ceiling will be.

I just love it when people start throwing out over-rated, or bust, or whatever when the player in question is only 21 years old. Pretty sure Duncan Keith wasn't even in the league at 21.....

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01-04-2011, 10:18 PM
  #203
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I agree, he has a lot of assets that Markov never pocessed too. There is a lot of time left on Subban's clock before we determine exactly where his ceiling will be.

I just love it when people start throwing out over-rated, or bust, or whatever when the player in question is only 21 years old. Pretty sure Duncan Keith wasn't even in the league at 21.....
preseasom
I guess you don't remember the preposterously overoptimistic posts that proclaimed Subban to be superior to Markov immediately if not sooner. No doubt those posters were overrating him enough to make one cringe. To a lesser degree Weber and Wisniewski are being overrated right now. Let's keep a sense of proportion.

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01-05-2011, 08:34 AM
  #204
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preseasom
I guess you don't remember the preposterously overoptimistic posts that proclaimed Subban to be superior to Markov immediately if not sooner. No doubt those posters were overrating him enough to make one cringe. To a lesser degree Weber and Wisniewski are being overrated right now. Let's keep a sense of proportion.
Some of those posters are probably the same ones calling Gill, Hamrlik and Spacek "garbage".

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01-05-2011, 12:25 PM
  #205
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Is losing Markov catching up to us? How many teams would be OK for a season without their #1 puck moving dman? The Wiz will help, but...

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01-05-2011, 12:58 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
preseasom
I guess you don't remember the preposterously overoptimistic posts that proclaimed Subban to be superior to Markov immediately if not sooner. No doubt those posters were overrating him enough to make one cringe. To a lesser degree Weber and Wisniewski are being overrated right now. Let's keep a sense of proportion.
What does immediately if not sooner mean exactly, lol, I don't see how that makes sense. Anywho, no, that's not what was said. Most people including me were arguing that Subban had a presence on this ice that was similar to Markov which is undeniable, he can do everything Marky does and in some aspects of the game he is superior such as rushing the puck up the ice and gaining the zone and his phisycality. The rest of his game is a notch below but not that far behind. Subban will be as good as Markov in 2-3 years and he still won't be at his peak. If anyone will replace Markov it's definitely him. He has done so in the playoffs already.

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Is losing Markov catching up to us? How many teams would be OK for a season without their #1 puck moving dman? The Wiz will help, but...
I don't forsee Gauthier making anymore changes to the defense this year, sadly. Expect a major re-tooling next year though.

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01-05-2011, 03:18 PM
  #207
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What does immediately if not sooner mean exactly, lol, I don't see how that makes sense. Anywho, no, that's not what was said. Most people including me were arguing that Subban had a presence on this ice that was similar to Markov which is undeniable, he can do everything Marky does and in some aspects of the game he is superior such as rushing the puck up the ice and gaining the zone and his phisycality. The rest of his game is a notch below but not that far behind. Subban will be as good as Markov in 2-3 years and he still won't be at his peak. If anyone will replace Markov it's definitely him. He has done so in the playoffs already.



I don't forsee Gauthier making anymore changes to the defense this year, sadly. Expect a major re-tooling next year though.
PK's hockey sense and decicion making is at least a few notches below Markovs. As of now the 2 players are miles apart.

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01-05-2011, 04:04 PM
  #208
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Is losing Markov catching up to us? How many teams would be OK for a season without their #1 puck moving dman? The Wiz will help, but...
There has been a lot of harsh criticism directed towards some of the d-men on the current roster. I've been guilty at times of that same criticizing.

However......none of them have been playing the roles they were initially signed to play. Some are playing on their offside, some have much more responsibility, some of them are "learning" on the fly.

Markov has been missing more than one season. It started at the end of 2008 - 2009 with what turned out to be the initial knee injury? Does anybody know that to be fact? Anyway given what happened at the end of that season I think management was reactive and signed d-men left and right. Good thing they did for last year because the D corps was overworked with a multitude of injuries including yours truly. Unfortunately what management didn't forecast is that the Habs would be without Markov this year more than last.

Yes, I think it's safe to say it's going to start taking it's toll especially on guys like Gorges and Hamrlik who have been trying to compensate not only for Markov's injury but a host of other D injuries during that period (since '08 - '09) of time until now. They not only have taken a physical beating but the mental fatigue has to be pretty hefty too.

If Markov re-signs with the Habs there has to be enough money and planning for Plan B when he goes down again. That means more legitimate top 4 d-men instead of borderline NHL'ers and third pairing guys. And maybe d-men who are a little bit more diversified than a Hal Gill.

I'm at the point where I'd rather have 3 or 4 legitimate top 4 d-men then a # 1 (Markov) and a solid # 3 (Hamrlik). Because if # 1 goes down it's too much of a burden on # 3.

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01-05-2011, 05:32 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
PK's hockey sense and decicion making is at least a few notches below Markovs. As of now the 2 players are miles apart.
oh yea definitely

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01-05-2011, 06:13 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
PK's hockey sense and decicion making is at least a few notches below Markovs. As of now the 2 players are miles apart.
I'm not sure if it's a lack of hockey sense or the fact that the nhl is still a little too quick for him(I know that is this is not at all what you are saying it's just something I thought of when reading your post).

It's probably a little both, but we're going to have to wait and see to answer that question. One thing is for sure is that there is definitley room for improvement, but for his age and at his position, Subban has shown a lot of good things, I hope he can continue improving in those good areas while at the same time improving those areas he's having difficulty with.

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01-05-2011, 06:25 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
There has been a lot of harsh criticism directed towards some of the d-men on the current roster. I've been guilty at times of that same criticizing.

However......none of them have been playing the roles they were initially signed to play. Some are playing on their offside, some have much more responsibility, some of them are "learning" on the fly.

Markov has been missing more than one season. It started at the end of 2008 - 2009 with what turned out to be the initial knee injury? Does anybody know that to be fact? Anyway given what happened at the end of that season I think management was reactive and signed d-men left and right. Good thing they did for last year because the D corps was overworked with a multitude of injuries including yours truly. Unfortunately what management didn't forecast is that the Habs would be without Markov this year more than last.

Yes, I think it's safe to say it's going to start taking it's toll especially on guys like Gorges and Hamrlik who have been trying to compensate not only for Markov's injury but a host of other D injuries during that period (since '08 - '09) of time until now. They not only have taken a physical beating but the mental fatigue has to be pretty hefty too.

If Markov re-signs with the Habs there has to be enough money and planning for Plan B when he goes down again.

That means more legitimate top 4 d-men instead of borderline NHL'ers and third pairing guys. And maybe d-men who are a little bit more diversified than a Hal Gill.

I'm at the point where I'd rather have 3 or 4 legitimate top 4 d-men then a # 1 (Markov) and a solid # 3 (Hamrlik). Because if # 1 goes down it's too much of a burden on # 3.

Very well written. Totally agree.

But I have a feeling Markov (and his agent) Don Meehan will demand (at least) $6 - 6,5 mil/year.

Habs management have a huge decision(s) to make this summer when it comes to Markov.

I want Markov to sign a 1 year (or 2 year deal) at 4 mil/year...not gonna happen. NHL players want every penny (aren't they going on a strike for more $$ in 2 or 3 years? it'll be great for the many NHL fans). And, when is the last time a star player took a major rebate deal? ('cause of being very injury prone).
Souray? (no, he got all the money he wanted...now in the AHL).

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01-05-2011, 06:29 PM
  #212
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Markov will be ready to go in the playoffs, second round at the latest. Then off to the promised land....Cup 25 baby

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01-05-2011, 06:31 PM
  #213
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Very well written. Totally agree.

But I have a feeling Markov (and his agent) Don Meehan will demand (at least) $6 - 6,5 mil/year.

Habs management have a huge decision(s) to make this summer when it comes to Markov.
No one in the league will offer that much money for Markov, because he's injury prone, but also because it already had affected his play before this season.

And of course the market is pretty low for UFAs these days.

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01-05-2011, 06:31 PM
  #214
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Very well written. Totally agree.

But I have a feeling Markov (and his agent) Don Meehan will demand (at least) $6 - 6,5 mil/year.

Habs management have a huge decision(s) to make this summer when it comes to Markov.

I want Markov to sign a 1 year (or 2 year deal) at 4 mil/year...not gonna happen. NHL players want every penny (aren't they going on a strike for more $$ in 2 or 3 years? it'll be great for the many NHL fans). And, when is the last time a star player took a major rebate deal? ('cause of being very injury prone).
Souray? (no, he got all the money he wanted...now in the AHL).
Also Markov will not ask for or get more than 5.5 he is not going anywhere. That said I don't think he will get more than a 2 yr deal. He is a loyal soldier, I bet he finishes his career in Montreal.

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01-05-2011, 06:37 PM
  #215
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Very well written. Totally agree.

But I have a feeling Markov (and his agent) Don Meehan will demand (at least) $6 - 6,5 mil/year.

Habs management have a huge decision(s) to make this summer when it comes to Markov.

I want Markov to sign a 1 year (or 2 year deal) at 4 mil/year...not gonna happen. NHL players want every penny (aren't they going on a strike for more $$ in 2 or 3 years? it'll be great for the many NHL fans). And, when is the last time a star player took a major rebate deal? ('cause of being very injury prone).
Souray? (no, he got all the money he wanted...now in the AHL).
Not many teams can put themselves in a position to acquire a 6M defenseman who may or may not play the entire season. I realise that injured players are generally covered through insurance, but Markov's case is going to be a delicate one, there is going to surely be a barrage of tests and likely premiums for him to clear all the pre-requisites.

At the very most, Markov will get a 2-3 year deal at his current salary... I, like yourself am hoping for a 1 or 2 year deal around 4M I'd be willing to go as high as 5M on a one-year deal.

To be honest, despite his extremely good skillset I don't see there being a ton of amazing offers on Markov this summer should he hit UFA status. I expect *alot* of teams to kick the tires on 1-year deals, but the amount of teams offering him multi-year deals with large salaries will in all likeliness be almost non-existant.

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01-05-2011, 07:18 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Not many teams can put themselves in a position to acquire a 6M defenseman who may or may not play the entire season. I realise that injured players are generally covered through insurance, but Markov's case is going to be a delicate one, there is going to surely be a barrage of tests and likely premiums for him to clear all the pre-requisites.

At the very most, Markov will get a 2-3 year deal at his current salary... I, like yourself am hoping for a 1 or 2 year deal around 4M I'd be willing to go as high as 5M on a one-year deal.

To be honest, despite his extremely good skillset I don't see there being a ton of amazing offers on Markov this summer should he hit UFA status. I expect *alot* of teams to kick the tires on 1-year deals, but the amount of teams offering him multi-year deals with large salaries will in all likeliness be almost non-existant.

Insurance: just wondering...the Habs right now are (for example) paying 50% of Markov's salary and the other 50% is paid by Markov's insurance company? (I wouldn't want to be Markov's insurance company! I'm sure the rates will change next year!).

------------- -------------------- --------------

And about your above post...didn't Edmonton take a huge risk with Souray (knowing he was injury prone: wrist/hand/shoulders,etc). They gave him all the money he wanted, and look at that situation now. It seems like there's always one or two teams who will sign injury prone stars (ex: NY with Gaborik).

Anyways, I'd love for all of us to be able to talk about how well Markov is playing instead of always talking about his injuries...

Next year he may need 30-40 games to get back to his regular self...he has missed so much playing time in the last 2 years+, and when he comes back will he suddenly (somehow!?) turn into a mini iron-man?

Maybe it's loyalty (from us?) or maybe it's just too hard to go and find another Markov out there (who is less injury prone).

Let's wait and see how badly Markov wants to stay in Mtl this summer when/if they re-sign, can't wait to find out what happens. And that Don Meehan (Markov's agent) won't make it easy for Habs' management.


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01-05-2011, 07:39 PM
  #217
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No one in the league will offer that much money for Markov, because he's injury prone, but also because it already had affected his play before this season.



And of course the market is pretty low for UFAs these days.
I hope you're right 'cause Edmonton and NY Rangers spent lots of $$$ on very injury prone stars...

I wonder how long this will go on for (Markov missing 40 games per season and/or almost the entire season and most playoff games). Not good for our Habs, not good for our #2 to #6 d-men...bottom line is our team suffers from his injuries and we just recently also had to give up a 2nd Round Pick for a top3-4 dman (Wiz-ski). Not Markov's fault (injury prone, bad luck or not), but still...

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01-05-2011, 07:58 PM
  #218
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I'm not sure if it's a lack of hockey sense or the fact that the nhl is still a little too quick for him(I know that is this is not at all what you are saying it's just something I thought of when reading your post).

It's probably a little both, but we're going to have to wait and see to answer that question. One thing is for sure is that there is definitley room for improvement, but for his age and at his position, Subban has shown a lot of good things, I hope he can continue improving in those good areas while at the same time improving those areas he's having difficulty with.
For sure.

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01-05-2011, 08:02 PM
  #219
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I just have a question about Markov and other players in his situation.. when a player has a season ending injury like his, what do they do during their time off team-related? Do they hang around the team at all during practices, meetings and the like? Do they attend every, or at least some, games from the pressbox? Markov is a leader on the team, so I'm wondering if he still talks to the other players about the team. On one hand I could see a reason why, but on the other it might be distracting.

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01-05-2011, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gommallionta View Post
Markov is a leader on the team, so I'm wondering if he still talks to the other players about the team.
What makes you think he's a vocal leader that talks to other players? Teammates have publicly stated that he doesn't talk very much at all.

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01-05-2011, 09:05 PM
  #221
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What does immediately if not sooner mean exactly, lol, I don't see how that makes sense. Anywho, no, that's not what was said. Most people including me were arguing that Subban had a presence on this ice that was similar to Markov which is undeniable, he can do everything Marky does and in some aspects of the game he is superior such as rushing the puck up the ice and gaining the zone and his phisycality. The rest of his game is a notch below but not that far behind. Subban will be as good as Markov in 2-3 years and he still won't be at his peak. If anyone will replace Markov it's definitely him. He has done so in the playoffs already.



I don't forsee Gauthier making anymore changes to the defense this year, sadly. Expect a major re-tooling next year though.
Are we speaking of his athleticism or his hockey skill? The chief difference between the two is that Markov always seems to know what he's doing. I don't think the same can be said of Subban. Subban sometimes makes more mistakes in one game than Markov does in a month. Can he correct this tendency? I hope so. The Habs need it badly.

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01-06-2011, 07:36 AM
  #222
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I hope you're right 'cause Edmonton and NY Rangers spent lots of $$$ on very injury prone stars...

I wonder how long this will go on for (Markov missing 40 games per season and/or almost the entire season and most playoff games). Not good for our Habs, not good for our #2 to #6 d-men...bottom line is our team suffers from his injuries and we just recently also had to give up a 2nd Round Pick for a top3-4 dman (Wiz-ski). Not Markov's fault (injury prone, bad luck or not), but still...
From a business perspective giving up other assets and witnessing a cumulative effect of Markov's injuries on other players is something that appears to be overlooked. Many fans complain about overpaid players but if there is a player who has cost this organization a bundle in the last fews it maybe is Andrei Markov.

How loyal will he be? I wouldn't bank on it. He dashed off to the Olympics after missing two key games beforehand and while it's something I don't necessarily hold against him - it demonstrates that he did put something else before the Habs even though the Habs were paying is salary.

His circumstances have changed too and his years are winding down. I agree with the earlier comment that some GM very well could offer him a one year deal of 6 - 6.5mil and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he takes it.

As a GM, offering those dollars could be realistic but for me it would have to be based on a bonus laden contract. In other words he'd have to earn it.

And will he be a true number one d-man even though he could be payed like one? Looking back when he returned last year Hamrlik was still given a heavy workload that included playing against the top lines. Even against Washington last year Gorges and Gill / Hamrlik - Spacek were the ones shutting down Ovechkin. A case could be made for his importance to the powerplay but Wiz is putting that on the right track. And to me over time it's almost been proven that the powerplay misses a huge shot more than Andrei Markov.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

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01-06-2011, 08:02 AM
  #223
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The bottom line in all this is that after the season when the Habs look at their options, I think they will see that as much as they can add a couple of #2 and 3 guys, there won't be and #1 d-men on the UFA market by July 1st, those guys will probably be extended or have their rights traded and signed. Banking on us getting 2 of the 3-4 quality guys out there is risky. Before signing Hamhuis, Vancouver still kept Salo Bieksa Edler Ehrhoff Alberts and added Ballard. Once they got Hamhuis THEN they started looking to move Bieksa...but the Salo injury bought them 3 months.

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01-06-2011, 09:31 AM
  #224
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I just have a question about Markov and other players in his situation.. when a player has a season ending injury like his, what do they do during their time off team-related? Do they hang around the team at all during practices, meetings and the like? Do they attend every, or at least some, games from the pressbox? Markov is a leader on the team, so I'm wondering if he still talks to the other players about the team. On one hand I could see a reason why, but on the other it might be distracting.
great question, you usually see these guys who are injured watching the games from the pressbox, and you would assume they are around the team and training staff while re-habbing their injuries, but would they be around as much as if they were not hurt? Probably not...? You would think they would stay very much on top of things, such as game plans etc afterall, they are still being paid the big $$$....

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01-06-2011, 09:33 AM
  #225
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What makes you think he's a vocal leader that talks to other players? Teammates have publicly stated that he doesn't talk very much at all.
True, but I think that has changed considerably in the last season or so....unfortunately, he has been hurt all too much of the time...he does even speak to the media more these days, which was a real surprise for me...

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