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OT New Orleans? Memphis? Louisville? Salt Lake? Richmond, VA? Norfolk?

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Old
12-07-2010, 07:19 PM
  #126
Rocko604
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It's threads like these that I'm reminded of a quote from one of the greatest sports movies ever made: BASEketball.

"Soon it was commonplace for entire teams to change cities in search of greater profits. The Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles where there are no lakes. The Oilers moved to Tennessee where there is no oil. The Jazz moved to Salt Lake City where they don't allow music. The Raiders moved from Oakland to LA, back to Oakland. No one seemed to notice."

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Old
12-07-2010, 11:19 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I still don't get where the OP came up with this list. It seems that he just used the premise of the NBA abandoning a couple of cities and then tacked on a few more that he was interested in getting some comment about.

I could easily make a similar list based on the same question:
Sacramento? Indianapolis? Tulsa? Cleveland, Cincinnati? Birmingham?
I made the list based on the NBA abandoning 2 of the cities (Memphis and New Orelans) and addd similar sizes cities with less competition.

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Old
12-08-2010, 12:18 AM
  #128
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None of these cities would make sense.

New Orleans is far too poor and rebuilding. For a city founded by French setters with similarities to Montreal culture wise, it lacks what Montreal has, french people to support hockey like the Canadiens.

Norfolk and Richmond: Norfolk is quite too small of a town. If no other major sports leagues decided to not put teams there, the NHL should not go there either. Both cities are under the sphere of influence of the Capitals too due to their close proximity as well as the Hurricanes. Baltimore would make much more sense, however Baltimore has the same issues as New Orleans.

Memphis: The NHL is currently experimenting in Nashville. The experiment is not working very well. I still don't understand how hockey can mix in with the cowboy culture. So why put another team in Tennessee??

Louisville: This option may fair well, however they are other better locations I would consider placing a team simply because it is a small market. The NHL has too many of those.

Salt Lake: Another option that may be a viable, however as stated before there are far better options for the NHL right now.

Too simply put it, Winnipeg and Quebec were robbed. The southern NHL US expansion implemented by Mr. Bettman and his gang has put the NHL in a bad state. Most of these southern US hockey franchises are in a terrible state. For the people of Winnipeg and Quebec, watching the Coyotes and Thrashers draw crowds of only 5 000 people some nights, angers them.

The cities that should be considered first are as follows: Houston, Winnipeg, Quebec and Seattle. Other minor considerations would be Louisville, Indianapolis and Salt Lake City. The Islanders, Ducks, Lightning, Predators should relocate.

Losing Atlanta, Phoenix and Florida would hurt the NHL. The NHL must think hard. These are big cities and where big bucks can be made. Losing them would represent a huge failure for Mr. Bettman and his gang.

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Old
12-08-2010, 12:53 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
Memphis: The NHL is currently experimenting in Nashville. The experiment is not working very well. I still don't understand how hockey can mix in with the cowboy culture. So why put another team in Tennessee??
In Texas, maybe (and Oklahoma; I might even add New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming).

C&W sure. (Country <> Cowboy)

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12-08-2010, 01:05 AM
  #130
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Strike New Orleans from the list.....the NBA just bought their basketball team. That, plus it being a 'deep south' market should make it obvious the NHL shouldn't be (I'd say "isn't"...but the NHL has surprised us before) interested.

Of all these options I...and really any NHL fan should realize there are BETTER options. I get the 'grow the game' aspect of these markets....but we're going through that now...and honestly if it was producing the desired results...we wouldn't even be discussing this.

In my opinion....and feel free to offer up your own....this is a list, in order, of where the NHL should be looking to go.....ignoring arena issues and all that. I'll look more into this soon and re-post a list taking into account suitable arenas. For now....here are markets that I believe the NHL should have an interest in.....

1) Winnipeg, Manitoba
1) Hamilton, Ontario
1) Quebec City, Quebec
2) Portland, Oregon
3) Milwaukee, Wisconsin
4) Indianapolis, Indiana
5) Cleveland, Ohio
6) Seattle, Washington
7) Kansas City, Missouri
8) Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

This is a loose order.....basically off the top of my head. Some have suitable arenas right now (ie, Portland) and some don't (ie, Winnipeg ). Ignoring the arena issues for now....I think these markets represent potentials....more than most on the list provided in this thread.

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12-08-2010, 11:02 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
[...]Ignoring the arena issues for now....I think these markets represent potentials....more than most on the list provided in this thread.
Potential? Tell that to Phoenix and Atlanta's owners!

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12-08-2010, 11:19 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
Memphis: The NHL is currently experimenting in Nashville. The experiment is not working very well. I still don't understand how hockey can mix in with the cowboy culture. So why put another team in Tennessee??
There are so many potential responses, but they are summed up in the following sentence:

Do your research.

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Old
12-08-2010, 11:35 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Strike New Orleans from the list.....the NBA just bought their basketball team. That, plus it being a 'deep south' market should make it obvious the NHL shouldn't be (I'd say "isn't"...but the NHL has surprised us before) interested.

Of all these options I...and really any NHL fan should realize there are BETTER options. I get the 'grow the game' aspect of these markets....but we're going through that now...and honestly if it was producing the desired results...we wouldn't even be discussing this.

In my opinion....and feel free to offer up your own....this is a list, in order, of where the NHL should be looking to go.....ignoring arena issues and all that. I'll look more into this soon and re-post a list taking into account suitable arenas. For now....here are markets that I believe the NHL should have an interest in.....

1) Winnipeg, Manitoba
1) Hamilton, Ontario
1) Quebec City, Quebec
2) Portland, Oregon
3) Milwaukee, Wisconsin
4) Indianapolis, Indiana
5) Cleveland, Ohio
6) Seattle, Washington
7) Kansas City, Missouri
8) Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

This is a loose order.....basically off the top of my head. Some have suitable arenas right now (ie, Portland) and some don't (ie, Winnipeg ). Ignoring the arena issues for now....I think these markets represent potentials....more than most on the list provided in this thread.
That's a very strong list. Milwaukee is probably a more suitable location than Green Bay which I've been touting. I'd probably move Seattle up that list to number 3 or 4 (although you do have 3 1's, lol).

Not too sure about Cleveland given there's already the Columbus Blue Jackets in the state of Ohio, and they haven't been drawing lately (admittedly they were drawing good crowds but constant losing has turned some fans off...).

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Old
12-08-2010, 12:07 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Strike New Orleans from the list.....the NBA just bought their basketball team. That, plus it being a 'deep south' market should make it obvious the NHL shouldn't be (I'd say "isn't"...but the NHL has surprised us before) interested.

Of all these options I...and really any NHL fan should realize there are BETTER options. I get the 'grow the game' aspect of these markets....but we're going through that now...and honestly if it was producing the desired results...we wouldn't even be discussing this.

In my opinion....and feel free to offer up your own....this is a list, in order, of where the NHL should be looking to go.....ignoring arena issues and all that. I'll look more into this soon and re-post a list taking into account suitable arenas. For now....here are markets that I believe the NHL should have an interest in.....

1) Winnipeg, Manitoba
1) Hamilton, Ontario
1) Quebec City, Quebec
2) Portland, Oregon
3) Milwaukee, Wisconsin
4) Indianapolis, Indiana
5) Cleveland, Ohio
6) Seattle, Washington
7) Kansas City, Missouri
8) Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

This is a loose order.....basically off the top of my head. Some have suitable arenas right now (ie, Portland) and some don't (ie, Winnipeg ). Ignoring the arena issues for now....I think these markets represent potentials....more than most on the list provided in this thread.
New Orleans should be crossed off the list because they can't financially support anyone but an NFL team at this time.

They have ONE Fortune 500 company, and it's a monopoly: The power company.

They have a population that WAS small market BEFORE Katrina and 10% of their 2000 population left.

They can't support their Triple-A baseball team; it's a ghost town.
They can't support their NBA team and they made a playoff run and had an MVP candidate.
(They can support the Saints because it's eight home games a year).


My realistic list would be:
1. Winnipeg / Quebec
2. Quebec / Winnipeg.
3. Houston, Texas
--
4. Seattle
5. Portland
--
6. Las Vegas
7. Kansas City

I wouldn't consider GTA, Hamilton or Chicago realistic, but they'd be good choices for teams

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Old
12-08-2010, 12:43 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
There are so many potential responses, but they are summed up in the following sentence:

Do your research.
haha!!

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Old
12-08-2010, 12:50 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I made the list based on the NBA abandoning 2 of the cities (Memphis and New Orelans) and addd similar sizes cities with less competition.
You did include three NBA cities (Salt Lake City).

Let's rank both lists together. Not saying that the cities I listed would be what I think have the best potential, and I figure that wasn't your point either to say that you think those are all good options. But are there any good options in the two groups:

New Orleans? Memphis? Louisville? Salt Lake? Richmond, VA? Norfolk?
Sacramento? Indianapolis? Tulsa? Cleveland, Cincinnati? Birmingham?

First off, because 6 of those cities still currently do have NBA teams, ranking the list with that consideration:

1. Norfolk-Virginia Beach
2. Tulsa
3. Louisville
4. Birmingham
5. Salt Lake City
6. Richmond
7. Cincinnati
8. Sacramento
9. Cleveland
10 Memphis
11 Indianapolis *
12 New Orleans

Now if we take away the NBA:

1. Salt Lake City
2. Indianapolis *
3. Norfolk-Virginia Beach
4. Sacramento
5. Tulsa
6. Cleveland
7. Louisville
8. Birmingham
9. Richmond
10 Memphis
11 Cincinnati
12 New Orleans

Personally, I wouldn't bet that the NBA is going to be abandoning any of those cities soon. But with respect to New Orleans and Memphis, it doesn't really matter because those locations still would be far down the list in consideration for the NHL.

Only Norfolk-Virginia Beach, Tulsa, and Salt Lake City are in the top-6 on both lists.

* Indianapolis would appear to be a huge wildcard. If the NBA were to leave town there, it could be a prime target for the NHL, but otherwise it's essentially a no-go.

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Old
12-09-2010, 08:54 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
None of these cities would make sense.


Memphis: The NHL is currently experimenting in Nashville. The experiment is not working very well. I still don't understand how hockey can mix in with the cowboy culture. So why put another team in Tennessee?? .
Really? They've almost doubled their revenue in the last 3 years and are playing to 95% or more crowds every night this season. Looks like we just had a bad owner that didn't know how to sell this market. Funny he goes to Minnesota and their sellout streak ends....

Also, cowboys are in the Texas we're hillbillies in Tennessee....

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Old
12-09-2010, 09:01 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
You did include three NBA cities (Salt Lake City).

Let's rank both lists together. Not saying that the cities I listed would be what I think have the best potential, and I figure that wasn't your point either to say that you think those are all good options. But are there any good options in the two groups:

New Orleans? Memphis? Louisville? Salt Lake? Richmond, VA? Norfolk?
Sacramento? Indianapolis? Tulsa? Cleveland, Cincinnati? Birmingham?

First off, because 6 of those cities still currently do have NBA teams, ranking the list with that consideration:

1. Norfolk-Virginia Beach
2. Tulsa
3. Louisville
4. Birmingham
5. Salt Lake City
6. Richmond
7. Cincinnati
8. Sacramento
9. Cleveland
10 Memphis
11 Indianapolis *
12 New Orleans

Now if we take away the NBA:

1. Salt Lake City
2. Indianapolis *
3. Norfolk-Virginia Beach
4. Sacramento
5. Tulsa
6. Cleveland
7. Louisville
8. Birmingham
9. Richmond
10 Memphis
11 Cincinnati
12 New Orleans

Personally, I wouldn't bet that the NBA is going to be abandoning any of those cities soon. But with respect to New Orleans and Memphis, it doesn't really matter because those locations still would be far down the list in consideration for the NHL.

Only Norfolk-Virginia Beach, Tulsa, and Salt Lake City are in the top-6 on both lists.

* Indianapolis would appear to be a huge wildcard. If the NBA were to leave town there, it could be a prime target for the NHL, but otherwise it's essentially a no-go.
IMO bot those list are good. Indianapolis has 2.1 million people though, suld be good enuough for 3 three teams.

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12-09-2010, 09:17 AM
  #139
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They have a population that WAS small market BEFORE Katrina and 10% of their 2000 population left.

They can't support their Triple-A baseball team; it's a ghost town.
They can't support their NBA team and they made a playoff run and had an MVP candidate.
(They can support the Saints because it's eight home games a year).
And that Saints drawing area is pretty huge. We're 3.5+ hours one way from New Orleans and used to get solitications from the team to buy season tickets back when they were having attendance issues. Drawing a big crowd for a weekend football game is infinitely easier than for a big schedule sport. Look at all the college teams in podunkville that have zero problems drawing 60K+ every fall Saturday.

And as long as Tulsa, Memphis, and Richmond are on the list, I've gotta be the lone Grand Rapids advocate and say that would be a far better market for NHL level hockey if you could figure out a way to expand their arena- good tv market, additional mid-sized metros within an hour's drive that they could easily draw from, and good support for a team at the AHL level.

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12-09-2010, 09:47 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by RWC View Post
It's threads like these that I'm reminded of a quote from one of the greatest sports movies ever made: BASEketball.

"Soon it was commonplace for entire teams to change cities in search of greater profits. The Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles where there are no lakes. The Oilers moved to Tennessee where there is no oil. The Jazz moved to Salt Lake City where they don't allow music. The Raiders moved from Oakland to LA, back to Oakland. No one seemed to notice."
That's awesome, I have never seen someone quote BASEketball. Classic sports movie!

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Old
12-09-2010, 11:19 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
None of these cities would make sense.

...

Norfolk and Richmond: Norfolk is quite too small of a town. If no other major sports leagues decided to not put teams there, the NHL should not go there either. Both cities are under the sphere of influence of the Capitals too due to their close proximity as well as the Hurricanes. Baltimore would make much more sense, however Baltimore has the same issues as New Orleans.

...
Let's be honest. You haven't the slightest idea of Virginia demographics. Norfolk has an urban population of 1,047,869 and a metro population of 1,795,015.

Point being, it's big. This is a larger area by population than seven current NHL cities. It's larger than five current and former Canadian NHL cities.

Edmonton, AB. Metro: 1,034,945.
Calgary, AB. Metro: 1,079,310.
Ottawa, ON. Metro: 1,130,76.
Buffalo, NY. Metro: 1,124,309. Combined statistical area: 1,203,997
Nashville, TN: Metro: 1,666,566.
Raleigh, NC. Metro: 1,125,827. Combined statistical area: 1,742,816
Columbus, OH: Metro: 1,773,120.

Winnipeg. Metro: 694 668
Quebec City. Metro: 715,515

By contrast, Baltimore has a metro population of 2,690,886. It's bigger, yes, but it hardly dwarfs Norfolk, which is 3/4 the size of Baltimore and a sizeable urban area in its own right.

Interest level is muted, though. That part is certainly true. Whatever might once have been the case, there is little interest on the part of Norfolk today in attracting NHL hockey. This is the key point, not population and not any Washington exclusivity zone.

Anyway, there are plenty of issues with a Norfolk bid for the NHL. Size/population is not one of them.

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Old
12-09-2010, 12:12 PM
  #142
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IMO bot those list are good. Indianapolis has 2.1 million people though, suld be good enuough for 3 three teams.
You're talking about the "Combined Metropolitan area" that in fact is barely over 2 million, and it covers a quite broad area. The Metropolitan area is a better statistic in Indianapolis' case for considering what population is realistically available for a fanbase; and the Metro area has a population of less than 1.8 million. Either way, what other city supports 3 major league franchises while having a population that only between 1.8 and 2 million? And at the same time has two major leagues that are in direct competition with each other during the calendar year.

Pittsburgh has 3, but none in direct competition. (And Pittsburgh is at about 2.5 million)
Portland has 1
Cincinnati has 2
Sacramento has 1
Orlando has 1
San Antonio has 1
Kansas City has 2
San Jose has 1
Columbus has 1
Charlotte has 2
Indianapolis has 2 (and is the smallest metro area in this list)

Until the population increases significantly, or unless one of those teams leave town, I don't see Indianapolis supporting a 3rd major league franchise, especially not the NHL.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-09-2010 at 12:34 PM.
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12-09-2010, 12:34 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selkie View Post
And that Saints drawing area is pretty huge. We're 3.5+ hours one way from New Orleans and used to get solitications from the team to buy season tickets back when they were having attendance issues. Drawing a big crowd for a weekend football game is infinitely easier than for a big schedule sport. Look at all the college teams in podunkville that have zero problems drawing 60K+ every fall Saturday.

And as long as Tulsa, Memphis, and Richmond are on the list, I've gotta be the lone Grand Rapids advocate and say that would be a far better market for NHL level hockey if you could figure out a way to expand their arena- good tv market, additional mid-sized metros within an hour's drive that they could easily draw from, and good support for a team at the AHL level.
Grand Rapids will not move up due to its close ties w/ the DRW being their affiliate

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12-09-2010, 12:39 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
Grand Rapids will not move up due to its close ties w/ the DRW being their affiliate
If you look up how long this affiliation has been in effect, I think you'll agree that it would mean next to nothing when compared with the prospects of getting an NHL franchise of their own.

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12-09-2010, 01:01 PM
  #145
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If you look up how long this affiliation has been in effect, I think you'll agree that it would mean next to nothing when compared with the prospects of getting an NHL franchise of their own.
I would imagine that you're not actually suggesting that Grand Rapids could have a valid shot at getting an NHL franchise (I mean, assuming it had an arena that would service). I mean, I've offered up Grand Rapids as a possible option before, because I do think that with its metro area, it could have the right dynamics to support an NHL team. The only thing is that I just don't see any reason why the NHL would want to put a team there (ahead of other options). Detroit, I would think more than sufficiently represents the state and almost certainly pulls in a fanbase, if only in viewership, from across the whole state.

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12-09-2010, 01:03 PM
  #146
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I would imagine that you're not actually suggesting that Grand Rapids could have a valid shot at getting an NHL franchise
I'm not - I was merely countering the claim that an existing affiliation would be the dealbreaker.

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12-09-2010, 01:12 PM
  #147
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Interest level is muted, though. That part is certainly true. Whatever might once have been the case, there is little interest on the part of Norfolk today in attracting NHL hockey. This is the key point, not population and not any Washington exclusivity zone.
If I lived in the area, I'd probably be pretty cynical about new attempts to bring hockey to the area too. The success that they've had at lower levels seems to be in spite of ownership groups who seem to have only really gotten hiring John Brophy right.

As for why the NHL would want to go to Grand Rapids, it's not so much about want but that if one of the Van Andel/De Vos scions made an offer to put a team there, it would be really, really hard for the league to turn them down. Even though that fortune is Not The Result of Pyramid Schemes.

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12-09-2010, 02:38 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
I'm not - I was merely countering the claim that an existing affiliation would be the dealbreaker.
not likely happening as long as the Illitches are in control

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12-09-2010, 03:08 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
You're talking about the "Combined Metropolitan area" that in fact is barely over 2 million, and it covers a quite broad area. The Metropolitan area is a better statistic in Indianapolis' case for considering what population is realistically available for a fanbase; and the Metro area has a population of less than 1.8 million. Either way, what other city supports 3 major league franchises while having a population that only between 1.8 and 2 million? And at the same time has two major leagues that are in direct competition with each other during the calendar year.

Pittsburgh has 3, but none in direct competition. (And Pittsburgh is at about 2.5 million)
Portland has 1
Cincinnati has 2
Sacramento has 1
Orlando has 1
San Antonio has 1
Kansas City has 2
San Jose has 1
Columbus has 1
Charlotte has 2
Indianapolis has 2 (and is the smallest metro area in this list)

Until the population increases significantly, or unless one of those teams leave town, I don't see Indianapolis supporting a 3rd major league franchise, especially not the NHL.
So there are no viable cities outside Houston and Portland eh...

The NHL is running out of options.

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12-09-2010, 03:27 PM
  #150
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So there are no viable cities outside Houston and Portland eh...

The NHL is running out of options.
Well, as we're discussing, unless the NBA abandons a city or two, there really aren't that many realistic options, but there are more than just those two.

Portland
Houston
Seattle
Norfolk-Virginia Beach
Tulsa
Austin
Hartford
Louisville
Birmingham

And Kansas City apparently believes it can support another major league, since they built an arena for one.

Also, perhaps Omaha has sufficient size, but if so then barely.

That's 11 locations, though admittedly half of them seem like the NHL would be scraping the bottom of the barrel to put a team there.

EDIT: I better mention Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hamilton.... or someone is certainly likely to say that I forgot to include the Canadian cities.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-09-2010 at 08:10 PM.
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